General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Hamilton's rule. Why all the blather?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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30 December 2003
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August West
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  1. I've been following the discussion of Hamilton's Rule for several weeks now and have been struck by
    the argument engendered by what seems to me to be a very simple model, albeit one based upon one of
    those small but brilliant insights that occur in science. Its being a damp, drizzly November in my
    soul (and a cold and rainy December in the real world), I could, like Cato, produce a philosophical
    flourish and fall upon my sword, or, like Ishmael, take to the sea; for me, I'll plunge into this
    sbe morass.

    It seems best for me to outline what I understand to be Hamilton's Rule, in the hopes that this may
    clarify points of the discussion. I add the caveat that it has been years since I read the original
    papers by Hamilton, and that my knowledge of the population genetics and animal behavior literature
    is current only as of ten (or more) years ago.

    The initial problem arose because of observations of animal behavior which suggested that some
    animals behaved altruistically in nature. By this it was meant that individuals behaved in ways that
    appeared to decrease their fitness, either by putting their lives at risk, or by reducing the number
    of offspring they could produce; at the same time, the result of the behavior appeared to benefit
    other group members in the sense of increasing their fitness. Examples that were cited included
    alarm calling, as seen in bird flocks or mammalian groups such as prairie dog colonies, and the
    forgoing of reproduction in order to aid other group members' reproductive efforts, as in the social
    hymenoptera. Whether these, and other, behaviors are indeed altruistic is a valid empirical
    question, to which I'll return later, but whether or not individual examples turn out to fill the
    altruistic bill has no bearing on the internal logic of Hamilton's model.

    These examples presented a problem for population genetics. Imagine a population evolving along
    traditional lines. Traits, including heritable behavioral patterns, increase or decrease in
    frequency according to their effects on individuals' survival and reproduction. Now a behavior
    emerges that we would recognize as altruistic: the individual exhibiting the behavior suffers a loss
    in fitness; it could die in the act, or perhaps lose resources and produce fewer fertile offspring.
    At the same time, the act increases the fitness of those in the group. How could this trait increase
    and become established in the population? According to the traditional population genetic models, it
    could not. If individuals with the trait are producing fewer offspring than those without the trait,
    the trait would die out along with the individuals exhibiting it.

    Hamilton's insight was that some of the individuals aided by the altruistic behavior may, in fact,
    carry the trait themselves. Thus, the sacrifice by the donor (i.e., the one exhibiting the behavior)
    may increase the fitness of recipients who also carry the trait. Might there be conditions under
    which such a trait could actually increase in frequency?

    As it turned out, the conditions are simple. If rb > c, the trait can increase. There are three
    variables in this inequality. Let's start with b and c, which are measured in the same units, namely
    fitness. b is the benefit, in fitness, to the recipient of the altruistic act, and c is the cost, in
    fitness, to the altruistic actor. Now saying that b and c are measured in fitness and actually
    measuring them are two different things, and a large thread could be started on the measurement of
    fitness. The actual measurement does not affect the validity of the rule. We can say, without loss
    of generality, that we could measure fitness by the number of fertile offspring produced. Thus, if I
    dive into the water to save you, and do it but die in the attempt, we have clear costs and benefits,
    but what are the fitness costs and benefits? Well, if I am older perhaps I could expect to produce
    one more offspring (let's assume my previous, surviving offspring are off and on their own and no
    longer need my help). You, on the other hand, are younger and can expect to produce two more
    offspring before you die, if only you hadn't fallen into the river. Here the cost to me is one
    fitness unit, and the benefit to you is two fitness units.

    For the example above, in which we were dealing with two individuals, it is clear that b and c must
    be measured in whole units (given our measure of fitness), but for a population as a whole, this
    need not be the case. b and c can be measured in average gains and losses. Obviously if the cost is
    0.25, an individual cannot produce the remaining 0.75 offspring, but if we look at the population
    (which is, in fact, the unit in which we measure evolution and natural selection) we can say that
    individuals who perform this behavior produce 75% of the offspring that they would produce if they
    didn't perform it.

    Now we come to r. For simplicity, Hamilton worked with, I believe, a single locus model; i.e., one
    allele was responsible for the difference between altruistic and non-altruistic types. This is not
    as far-fetched as it might appear. When an eagle flies overhead, some prairie dogs bark an alarm
    call. We might think of this as a threshold in behavior. If the stimulus is of the right type and
    intensity, the dog is likely to call. Could we not imagine that a small change in neurotransmitter
    efficacy, or lowered thresholds of neuroreceptors might cause a dog to call when others would not?
    In any event, this just-so story is irrelevant to the validity of the model. To continue, Hamilton
    defined r as the genetic relatedness of the recipient to the donor; i.e.,

    share half their genes, uncles/aunts with nieces/nephews share 0.25, cousins 0.125, etc. What r is
    is the probability of the recipient of the altruism also carrying the allele in question. In
    reality, altruistic behaviors are likely much more complicated than the simple single locus model.
    This does not really affect Hamilton's inequality. If we think of r as the probability of the
    recipient carrying the altruistic trait, the inequality holds whatever method of inheritance is
    involved (though measuring it might be a practical problem).

    In essence then, Hamilton's rule says that if the performance of the altruistic act leads to more
    offspring that carry the altruistic trait than would be the case if the act was never performed, the
    incidence of the trait will increase in the population. Simple. The rule uncovers the fact that
    fitness, in the sense of an individual's ability to pass its traits on to the next generation, can
    involve more than just one's direct offspring. This additional part of one's fitness needs to be
    added to the traditional measure to give inclusive fitness; it was Hamilton's great insight that in
    looking at the spread of traits in populations, the influence of a trait might spread beyond direct
    descendants.

    I would like to point out that Hamilton's rule is a (mathematical) model. It is not an hypothesis,
    and is not something to be tested or refuted. Given certain assumptions and conditions (the main
    condition being rb > c), the results are foreordained; it is a mathematical certainty. This is no
    different from the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium equations, or, in fact, Darwin's model of natural
    selection. These models are mathematically true. What is open to testing is whether or not the
    assumptions and conditions are ever met in nature, and how strong the effects will be when faced
    with opposing forces. These are empirical questions, and must be tested on a case by case basis. The
    hypothesis that would be tested is that an observed instance of altruistic behavior had evolved
    because of its effects on the inclusive fitness of those with the trait. This could be refuted by
    field observations and/or experiments. It might turn out that Hamilton's rule is unimportant in the
    history of evolution because the conditions required are rarely found, but it would not, and can
    not, refute the mathematical logic of the model.

    In fact, many instances of altruistic behavior are arguable. Much work done on alarm calling has
    shown that there is a very small, or no, cost involved in the behavior. In fact, in some species
    it has been suggested that an alarm call, by causing panic in a group, can actually aid the
    caller by confusing a predator and/or offering up many potential targets while the caller is the
    only one that knows where the predator is. It is my recollection that prairie dogs do not alarm
    call until they have run to their own borrow entrance, and are thus in relative safety. Of
    course, because the cost (c) is so low in this case, Hamilton's inequality would require very
    little benefit to the recipients to be valid. As I argued above, these questions must be
    addressed on a case by case basis.

    This has gone on much longer than planned, although I did mention its being a cold and rainy
    December, and I have free time. I would like to make one more point. Much has been made in this
    newsgroup about concerns that Hamilton's rule addresses relative fitness effects whereas the
    population might be declining due to absolute fitness losses. I'm not quite clear on this argument;
    it seems that the concern is that although the altruistic trait may be increasing relative to the
    non-altruistic one, the whole population may be declining due to the costs to altruistically
    behaving individuals. I would point out that when rb > c holds, it is a necessary consequence that b

    Quoted message said:

    = c (remember that r must be <= 1); this means that more offspring are produced if the altruistic


    behavior is performed than if it is not. Thus the population is in no danger from the altruistic
    behavior, although it may indeed be declining due to other factors.

    It is important to note that Hamilton's model addresses the initial spread of a rare, new trait. The
    idea is that the altruistic behavior, if exceedingly costly, is rarely performed. How often am I
    faced with the problem of jumping in a river to save someone? Not yet. Anyway, what this means is
    that the propensity for altruism, once arisen, can be passively spread through a group; each time
    conditions allow its expression, there is a disproportionate fitness gain to others likely to have
    the same propensity. Thus over time the trait can increase its relative frequency.

    There is much more that can be said about the ramifications of Hamilton's rule (especially regarding
    the special case of haplodiploidy in the social hymenoptera), and other models of altruistic
    behavior, but I fear I've long overwritten my welcome. I hope this post has helped some to clarify a
    few of the points made in the unending arguments on this newsgroup concerning this model. I look
    forward to being taken to task for all the errors I've most likely committed above. Have fun.

    --

  2. August West said:


    This has gone on much longer than planned, although I did mention its being a cold and rainy
    December, and I have free time. I would like to make one more point. Much has been made in this
    newsgroup about concerns that Hamilton's rule addresses relative fitness effects whereas the
    population might be declining due to absolute fitness losses. I'm not quite clear on this
    argument; it seems that the concern is that although the altruistic trait may be increasing
    relative to the non-altruistic one, the whole population may be declining due to the costs to
    altruistically behaving individuals. I would point out that when rb > c holds, it is a necessary
    consequence that b >= c (remember that r must be <= 1); this means that more offspring are
    produced if the altruistic behavior is performed than if it is not. Thus the population is in no
    danger from the altruistic behavior, although it may indeed be declining due to other factors.

    It is important to note that Hamilton's model addresses the initial spread of a rare, new trait.
    The idea is that the altruistic behavior, if exceedingly costly, is rarely performed. How often am
    I faced with the problem of jumping in a river to save someone? Not yet. Anyway, what this means
    is that the propensity for altruism, once arisen, can be passively spread through a group; each
    time conditions allow its expression, there is a disproportionate fitness gain to others likely to
    have the same propensity. Thus over time the trait can increase its relative frequency.

    In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is well
    known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early, the young
    never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits), are *immensely*
    significant to the survival of animals. The properties of memes are such that they act to to
    maximize the total numbers of all Replicators, in contrast to genes that act to maximize only the
    numbers of its host Replicators, e.g. anasoft.co.ukmemes.html and other
    papers. Since memes maximise the numbers of all replicators that carry them, it is trival to see
    that whatever maximises the number of all replicators, not individual replicators will be mostly
    observed if that number is greater.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  3. The simple answer is as follows:

    There has been a very simple mix up of the meaning of one single key-phrase!

    The meaning of "relative fitness" is (and should) in the Hamilton's rule context (be understood and
    rephrased as) _"relatives' fitness"_.

    The altruistic trait (or gene) has, as you pointed out, *already* become part of the relatives'
    genetic codes. (Some people might like to say it got there by genetic "drift".)

    In this way John Edser ought to be satisfied (though perhaps also a tad sad, since his stimulating
    struggle is hereby short-circuited) that *his* "absolute" (but logically fuzzy) concept of
    Darwinian fitness now stands uncontested by this irrefutable removal of the bones from "the
    Hamilton's rule herring".

    Peter

  4. "August West" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    I've been following the discussion of Hamilton's Rule for several weeks now and have been struck
    by the argument engendered by what seems > to me


    to be a very simple model, albeit one based upon one of those

    Quoted message said:

    small but brilliant insights that occur in science.


    Hamilton's rule is generally accepted, but one of the regs here, John Edser, disputes it. One of the
    reasons he gives is that cost and benefit are not measured in the same units. It is certainly true
    that it is very difficult to measure the cost / benefits of an action in terms of number of
    grandchildren foregone. I don't follow why cost and benefit cannot in principle be measured by
    counting grandchildren, however.

  5. August West <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    When I saw the title of this post, I was hopeful that I might find within some attempt to answer the
    question "Why all the blather?". Alas, the question was being asked rhetorically, and instead of an
    answer, we find still more reassurance that blather is uncalled-for.

    Here is my attempt to answer the question. The blather derives from an unholy mix of five sources:

    1. Widespread misunderstanding of what "rb>c" means.
    2. A suspicion that the simplicity of the formula hides the lack of some needed constraints on its
    application arising from conservation laws. (hence talk of "free lunch"😉
    3. Basic epistemological issues related to the proper relationship between theory and experiment in
    the study of evolution.
    4. Yet more confusion arising from Edser's wish to use the same symbols "r", "b", "c" in his
    competing theory, yet change their meanings.
    5. Under the assumption that Hamilton's rule does contain an error, a hypothesis that the origin and
    persistence of this error is caused by the political leanings of the parties involved.

    I shall comment only on 1, 3, and 5, as I still don't understand 2 and 4. (Which is not to say that
    I fully understand the issues that I DO address).

    6. The medium of a newsgroup is not well suited to the communication of mathematical reasoning. Thus
    it doesn't surprise me that no one has attempted to point out that "r" is a matrix, "b" is a
    vector, and there is a suppressed summation sign in the rule. However, it is a little surprising
    that no one has written something like "b=w1-w2" along with "B=W1-W2" and an equation providing
    the relationship between "W"s and "w"s. Then someone might write "rB>C" and take a step toward
    fathoming the confusion.
    Mr. West DOES attempt to address the confusion. I congratulate him for doing so in a way that
    doesn't worsen the confusion, but it is not clear to me that his explanations remove it.

    3. This strikes me as the key question. Is Natural Selection a testable law of nature (whether
    fundamental or phenomenological)? Or is it simply an explanatory framework? Depending on which
    answer we make, we will seek to use theory in quite different ways. If Natural Selection is a law
    of nature, we consult theory in order to better design and interpret the experiments that test
    that hypothetical law. On the other hand, if it is an explanatory framework, then we consult
    theory only to place some constraint on the fancifulness of the "just so stories" that we
    construct. Mr. West appears to me to be saying that Hamilton's rule is pure mathematics and is
    not subject to experiment. This also seems plausible to me. I doubt that it will be satisfactory
    to John Edser (except perhaps in the sense that mice are satisfactory to cats). I only hope that
    Mr. West's statement serves to focus the debate on this important (to me) issue as to the KIND of
    theory that Natural Selection provides.

    4. I only wish that Mr. Edser would refrain from offering theories regarding the source of
    Hamilton's error until he has demonstrated to someone else's satisfaction that an error
    actually exists!

  6. Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early, the
    young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits), are
    *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.

    Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    Quoted message said:

    The properties of memes are such that they act to to maximize the total numbers of all
    Replicators [...]

    No more so than viruses do. In other words, they don't do this at all.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove lock to reply.

  7. Peter F. said:

    The simple answer is as follows:

    There has been a very simple mix up of the meaning of one single key-phrase!

    The meaning of "relative fitness" is (and should) in the Hamilton's rule context (be understood
    and rephrased as) _"relatives' fitness"_.


    Sorry, Peter, that's simply wrong. Relative fitness is fitness relative to a reference genotype (you
    can choose any one you like - any difference gets removed throught normalisation).

    The only place where a relative's fitness enters is through the contribution to it from the
    altruistic actor - i.e. b in Hamilton's rule.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  8. Tim Tyler said:

    Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early, the
    young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits), are
    *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.

    Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration. Rats finding their way in a maze the second time around
    is completely unexplainable without memes. In case you are not aware of such mundane facts, when an
    animal learns *anything*, its genes do not change, hence genes cannot account for the fact that an
    animal learns anything whatsoever. A meme is simply whatever is *copied* stored in the brain/body,
    i.e. a virtual trait. This includes *all* *physical* learnt behaviour such as their own triald an
    erropr learning of what is the best way to catch food.

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have failed
    101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations that exist in
    the environment, its why animals have evolved a software (meme) based method to deal with such
    arbitrary environments. It is therfore trivially obvious that learnt behaviour of animals is
    tremendously significant to their survival. All learned behaviour is meme based, not gene based. Its
    that simple.

    Try and make a usable robot without software. Not a chance.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    The properties of memes are such that they act to to maximize the total numbers of all
    Replicators [...]

    No more so than viruses do.

    To my knowledge, viruses have no learned behaviour.

    Quoted message said:

    In other words, they don't do this at all.

    Ho hummm... You haven't even the slightest idea what your talking about. You view is trivially
    proven false, anasoft.co.ukmemes.html You obviously know nothing about memes
    or indeed animal behaviour at all.

    You are absolutely, experimentally and trivially *proven* wrong. Essentially, *all* animals exhibit
    learned behaviour, therefore they require memes to explain that behaviour. End of story.

    anasoft.co.ukindex.html
    anasoft.co.ukdefinitions.html

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, Jim Menegay

    Quoted message said:

    When I saw the title of this post, I was hopeful that I might find within some attempt to answer
    the question "Why all the blather?". Alas, the question was being asked rhetorically, and instead
    of an answer, we find still more reassurance that blather is uncalled-for.

    Sorry for the misleading rhetorical question in the subject; I have, for some reason I haven't
    been able to fathom, an aversion to coming up with subject lines; I just used the first thing that
    came to mind.

    Quoted message said:

    1. The medium of a newsgroup is not well suited to the communication of mathematical reasoning.
    Thus it doesn't surprise me that no one has attempted to point out that "r" is a matrix, "b" is
    a vector, and there is a suppressed summation sign in the rule. However, it is a little
    surprising that no one has written something like "b=w1-w2" along with "B=W1-W2" and an
    equation providing the relationship between "W"s and "w"s. Then someone might write "rB>C" and
    take a step toward fathoming the confusion.
    Mr. West DOES attempt to address the confusion. I congratulate him for doing so in a way that
    doesn't worsen the confusion, but it is not clear to me that his explanations remove it.

    I believe that a previous poster to one of the Hamilton threads pointed out that the rb's are summed
    over all individuals affected by the altruistic behavior, which is, I believe, what you are getting
    at with the matrix formulation. I don't see how this changes the meaning or ramifications of
    Hamilton's rule. The matrix form does, however, emphasize that the benefits, discounted by the
    likelihood that the recipient also carries the altruistic trait, must be summed over all recipients.
    The matrix form also makes it clear that each recipient may receive a different benefit from, and
    have a different relationship to, the donor. The conclusions, however, are the same and thus it is
    easier to stick with rb>c.

    Quoted message said:


    3. This strikes me as the key question. Is Natural Selection a testable law of nature (whether
    fundamental or phenomenological)? Or is it simply an explanatory framework? Depending on which
    answer we make, we will seek to use theory in quite different ways. If Natural Selection is a
    law of nature, we consult theory in order to better design and interpret the experiments that
    test that hypothetical law. On the other hand, if it is an explanatory framework, then we
    consult theory only to place some constraint on the fancifulness of the "just so stories" that
    we construct. Mr. West appears to me to be saying that Hamilton's rule is pure mathematics and
    is not subject to experiment. This also seems plausible to me. I doubt that it will be
    satisfactory to John Edser (except perhaps in the sense that mice are satisfactory to cats). I
    only hope that Mr. West's statement serves to focus the debate on this important (to me) issue
    as to the KIND of theory that Natural Selection provides.

    Yes, I was saying that Hamilton's rule is a mathematical relationship that in itself is not subject
    to testing (provided, of course, that it is internally consistent). I would say the same for natural
    selection, except that it is more pure logic than mathematics. What I mean by that is that given
    certain assumptions and conditions (I'm not sure whether that's redundant), natural selection must
    follow. The basic assumptions, which are the same for all scientific endeavor (well, I'm not up on
    current quantum physics) is that the law of Cause & Effect holds. Without this, all bets are off.
    Strike that. Even if at some low level there are no causes for effects, we might still posit that at
    the level of organization of interest for biological phenomena there is at least statistical
    predictability that we see as cause and effect. This might be argued. Let's not go there; we'll just
    assume that there are some true physical laws and Cause & Effect holds.

    A second very basic assumption is that the laws and rules of logic are accepted as valid. This is, I
    suppose, a corollary of Cause & Effect, but it doesn't hurt to state it explicitly.

    Apart from these basic assumptions there are some assumptions/conditions specific to natural
    selection. These were pretty well outlined by Darwin.

    First, more offspring are produced each generation than can survive and reproduce. Thus there is the
    "struggle for existence".

    Second, those individuals that do survive and reproduce, and the success of that reproduction, are
    enabled to do so in part due to innate characteristics.

    Third, there is variation among individuals with regard to these characteristics.

    Fourth, with regard to these innate abilities, offspring resemble their parent(s) more than they do
    any other randomly picked individual. In other words, there is a mechanism of inheritance of these
    characteristics.

    I think that's it, though I may have missed one or two. Given these conditions, natural selection
    WILL occur; i.e., the succeeding generation will show higher frequencies of individuals with the
    successful characteristics. If the population size is constant, some characteristics will increase
    in number and some will decrease. If the population size is changing, the relative frequencies of
    the characteristics will change. In this view, natural selection is not a causal process, but an
    outcome; a logically necessary outcome of the conditions outlined above. As such, it is not open to
    test or refutation. What we can test are the validity of the assumptions/conditions: do they hold,
    and are they common, in the observable world? I think few would disagree that they do and they are.
    Thus, natural selection occurs, full stop.

    Of course, the natural selection outlined above is a pretty poor sort of selection. After all, while
    frequencies change each generation, they may go in any direction as the conditions of existence
    change. What most people are interested in when thinking about evolution is, I believe, adaptation
    and/or species formation. For adaptation, a couple of additional assumptions are necessary. First,
    there must be time, and plenty of it. Second, within this time there must be long periods during
    which the conditions of existence faced by the population in question remain stable; i.e., the
    "selective pressures" must remain constant. Given these additional assumptions, we will see
    directional changes in the population, leading to more finely adapted individuals. Darwin's
    recognition of the immense amount of time available, which was possible only due to the emerging
    ideas of geology proposed by Darwin's contemporaries, was one of the key factors in the development
    of his ideas on natural selection.

    Now we have something to test. We have a mechanistic process that can lead to adaptation. We cannot
    test the validity of the process (natural selection) - that stands or falls on the internal
    consistency of the logic connecting the assumptions/conditions with the outcome - but we can hope to
    test whether these assumptions hold in any particular instance. We can also hope to determine how
    important this process is, or has been, in the production of the species and adaptations we observe.
    Just because natural selection is capable of producing adaptation, and that the conditions for this
    are common, doesn't imply that any given adaptation is the result of selection. There may be other
    processes, running concurrently, that also can produce the observed diversity of life; or that can
    limit or interact with the results of selection.

    So, there are various types of questions we can ask. In a given instance are all the assumptions
    valid? Can we identify adaptations at all? Can we identify the functions and evolutionary history of
    these adaptations? Can we determine how they arose, and what conditions made them beneficial to the
    organisms exhibiting them?

    At a more theoretical level, can we identify common themes among species and develop hypotheses that
    can explain why similar physical or behavioral characteristics arise again and again? Hamilton's
    rule is in this category - an attempt to show why altruistic behavior may be widespread - as are
    Robert Trivers' ideas concerning the ubiquity of parental care and parent-offspring conflict.

    However, when we try to test these hypotheses derived from the basic fact of selection we leave the
    armchair an enter the cold, uncaring outside world. Evolution is an historical process, and when we
    try to test predictions (or postdictions) concerning past events we are on thin ice. Any
    falsification of a prediction of an historical hypothesis cannot irrefutably refute (pardon the
    phrase) the hypothesis. We can always come up with ad hoc explanations - perhaps conditions changed
    for a while in the past, or pressures existed that left no traces. This is why arguments about just-
    so stories, though often amusing, are rarely enlightening (perhaps that's too harsh; just-so stories
    are themselves hypotheses and can point to further research. As our ability to gain insight into
    conditions of the past increases, we can hope to refute some of these stories).

    Ideally, we want to be able to use natural selection to predict the future course of an adaptation.
    The problem is time; selection has lots of it, we don't.

    I'm not sure where this leaves us. Is evolutionary science a science? It certainly seems to be. We
    can, from the simple assumptions involved in selection, derive many more and less sophisticated
    hypotheses that yield testable predictions. The problem is in the testing, but our limitations here
    are no reflection on the basic premise itself. Indeed, natural selection has spawned a scientific
    industry that has been exceedingly productive and profitable, both financially and spiritually, and,
    perhaps most importantly, highly enjoyable.

    As I read over this long post, I find I may be guilty of re-stating the obvious, underlying
    understanding of most posters to this group. Perhaps that's helpful, perhaps not. I look forward to
    finding out.

  10. "Anon." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter F. said:

    The simple answer is as follows:

    There has been a very simple mix up of the meaning of one single


    key-phrase!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    The meaning of "relative fitness" is (and should) in the Hamilton's rule context (be understood
    and rephrased as) _"relatives' fitness"_.


    Sorry, Peter, that's simply wrong. Relative fitness is fitness relative to a reference genotype
    (you can choose any one you like - any difference gets removed throught normalisation).


    I did not mean this post to be a precise comment about the abstract mathematically manipulative
    spirit of Hamilton's rule.

    It was just a simple and common-sensical, and still from where I sit correct, comment reflective
    mainly of Edser's (essentially AEVASIVE) anger with and theorizing from the notion of altruism
    (loosely meant in the sense of "acts of self-sacrifice for the benefit of others"😉.

    If I rescue a frog with my life, the frog stands a relatively miniscule chance of passing on my gene
    for frog saving self-sacrifice - don't you think?

    Only if I 'saved' my altruistic (not mutualistic) act for the benefit of close family, members of
    which are much more likely to carry 'this crazy gene', I would be more likely to contribute to the
    perpetuation of it and the (e.g.) "terror_ific" trait that it confers (given certain environmental
    influences).

    Quoted message said:

    The only place where a relative's fitness enters is through the contribution to it from the
    altruistic actor - i.e. b in Hamilton's rule.

    Okey, then let it 'b' precisely (the only thing) what I meant by the rephrasing of "relative
    fitness" to "relatives' fitness". %-|

    I thought (erronously perhaps???) that this aspect of the "debacle debate" was the crux of this
    tenacious topic-matter.

    Regards,

    Peter

  11. I've changed the subject line, in a rare attempt to maintain relevance to the subject (by re-
    defining the subject!).

    Kevin Aylward said:
    Tim Tyler said:

    Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early, the
    young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits), are
    *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.

    Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn, and
    as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have failed
    101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations that exist
    in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  12. August West <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    [Snip some good and wise stuff] Yes, I was saying that Hamilton's rule is a mathematical
    relationship that in itself is not subject to testing (provided, of course, that it is internally
    consistent). I would say the same for natural selection, except that it is more pure logic than
    mathematics. [Snip more good and wise stuff]

    I agree with everything said in this post and (despite my apparent complaint) in its predecesor.

    But, to sharpen the focus a little on the epistemology - some comments and a question.

    Consider the somewhat vague hypothesis "Genes that promote the fitness of the organisms that contain
    them will proliferate".

    This hypothesis certainly SEEMS to be testable - it is not pure mathematics. But there are problems
    when we try to clarify the meaning of the key words "fitness" and "proliferate".

    One possible issue with fitness is the old canard about "Natural Selection is a tautology." Ignore
    this - I don't want to go into this issue.

    A second issue is whether "fitness" should be inclusive fitness. I'm going to ignore this one too.
    Let John deal with it.

    In this post, I am going to focus on how "proliferate" should be clarified. I will list four
    possible meanings and ask which one is "correct".

    1. Proliferation means an increase in allele population over the short term. (i. e. Absolute)

    2. Proliferation means an increase in allele frequency over the short term. (i. e. Relative to the
    allele's competitors)

    3. Proliferation means an increase in allele population over the long term.

    4. Proliferation means an increase in allele frequency over the long term.

    Which of these is correct? That is, which of these things is Nature trying to increase? I realize
    that it may be difficult to resolve these competing hypotheses empirically, but it does seem naively
    that only one of them can be the correct characterization of Natural Selection. Assume we have two
    competing alleles at a locus - one of which (selfishly) tries to increase its short term relative
    frequency, and another which aims at increasing its long term absolute population. Which will win?

    Well, I am going to claim (not naively, I hope) that all four are correct. Each of these
    formulations specifies a different protocol for measuring the results, and it seems to me that you
    will see "proliferation" of genes targeted at that kind of proliferation however you measure it.

    Question: Does anyone else see this issue the way I see it? Does anyone know a reason why this
    viewpoint is wrong?

  13. Anon. said:

    I've changed the subject line, in a rare attempt to maintain relevance to the subject (by re-
    defining the subject!).

    Kevin Aylward said:
    Tim Tyler said:

    Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    > In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    > well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early,
    > the young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits),
    > are *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.

    Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn,
    and as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    What specific *animals* don't learn? How successful can such animals deal with being chased by a man
    with a gun?

    All the ones I can think of learn, e.g. cats, dogs, parrots, dolphins, lions, chimps etc...

    Quoted message said:


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have failed
    101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations that exist
    in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    You miss the fundamental point. Sure, a carrot has *some* ability to cope with a changing
    environment, but it can't run away from a man with a knife, so it most certainly can't deal with
    such a large variation in the environment, as I indeed correctly stated.

    I am speciffically addressing the wide and *large* variation of all environments, and as I stated,
    it is essentially, *impossible* to make a *practical* physical hardware machine, that can deal with
    such general environments. It matters not that slightest that less adaptable entities can exist
    without software programmability. These are not really relevant to discussions of how mutual-
    cooperation can be accounted for. The fundamental point, being that memes, by their very nature, act
    to maximise total numbers of Replicators, and so are inherently altruistic from the point of view of
    the entity carrying such a meme and therefore *automatically* account for altruistic behaviour.
    anasoft.co.ukmemes.html

    For example, the well known vampire bats example. These bats have to recognise specific bats that
    don't reciprocate blood feeding so that they can punish them. This absolutely can *not* be accounted
    for by genes. The genes can not code remembrance for specific bats, as those bats have not even been
    born when the gene was constructed. Its the ability to copy and store *variable* information, i.e.
    *memes*, that make the vampire bat mutual co-operation system work.

    The principle here is that, sure, one can have a certain amount of environmental adaptability with
    fixed hardware, but it is still very, very limited. Evolution solved this problem by evolving
    software controlled machines. That's why your typing on a piece of hardware running a program.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  14. "Jim Menegay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    I think that your question, "Which of these is correct? That is, which of these things is Nature

    Quoted message said:

    trying to increase?" is fundamentally philosophically flawed.


    (Hence that it also may contribute to keep many people's evolution theoretical minds chronically
    contaminated with bland notions and bull**ity notions that breed ever more bad questions and
    "blather".)

    My first point is that Nature is not "trying" to evolve, nor "trying" to be naturally selective.

    The principle of Natural Selection is, it should always be remembered, just an cognitive filter (a
    potentially revelatory such) for some of our perceptions of (or recognitions of patterns in) What
    Is going on.

    It ican (IMO) be helpful to think (dichotomize) in terms of "opportunity and adversity type
    evolutionary pressures" - rather than in terms of just Natural Selection..

    Opportunity Type Evolutionary Pressures (OTEP) can be held to mean, from: A fundamental pressure (by
    "What Is going on"😉 to produce "something imparticular" rather than to produce "nothing
    imparticular"; From then on (in philosophical order of occurence) the fact that a "fundamental
    particle producing" _Evolutionary Pressures_ must by all evidence have predominated over an
    "Adversity Type Evolutionary Pressure (ATEP) in form of a potential for particle-decay within the
    initial Inflationary (or Ekpyrotic) scenario of our Universe's coming into being. (Within this
    scenario matter would have had to became securely separeted from, or tended to predominate over, anti-
    matter.) The subsequent further era of astrophysical and chemical evolution eventually came to
    include the era of biological evolution. In the biolgical evolution era a dialectic interplay of
    differnet kinds of O-type and A-type evolutionary pressure can be seen to have occured. From the
    first spark of astrophysical evolution until today (and presumably also until tomorrow and much of
    the foreseeable future😉 the OTEP at play can be defined/characterized as "complexity increasing
    constructive patterning potentials, whereas A-type ditto can be defined the opposite
    characterization.

    In the case of biological evolution a most basic such opportunity type pressure, one that has
    already obviously been 'Naturally caved-in to', is the event of the first self-replicating
    molecule, in rough order followed by the first immediate Opportunity for DNA based self-replication
    by a cellular

    reproducing organism.

    Another use for the concept of OTEP and ATEP is (in respect of OTEP): 'Niches for the taking' within
    a nearby or near-future fitness landscape:
    e.g. trees to potentially be climbed by help of not yet genetically coded for climbing-capable
    physioanatomy; a potential for entering into a new kind of "social/psychosocial contract", or a
    new technology-dependent more or less sustainable life-style.

    ATEP can (in difference to OTEP) well refer both perceived but not yet impacted [adverse
    environmental features (what can be charecterized as "absence type" adverse features, as well as
    "presence type"😉 AND already physically or psychologically impacted adverse enviromental
    features/factors. Whereas the constructive complexity increasing (or at least maintaining) changes
    in genophenotypes and their overall patterns of adaptation that OTEP refers to make "an OTEP already
    caved-in to (or 'Opportunity already taken'😉" lose its physics inspired metaphor-spirit (even though
    a small DNA-determined somatic and/or psychophysiological novelty and corresponding change of
    behaviour or life-style _can_ be an important actor behind future OTEPs).

    P

  15. Jim Menegay said:

    August West <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    [Snip some good and wise stuff] Yes, I was saying that Hamilton's rule is a mathematical
    relationship that in itself is not subject to testing (provided, of course, that it is internally
    consistent). I would say the same for natural selection, except that it is more pure logic than
    mathematics. [Snip more good and wise stuff]

    I agree with everything said in this post and (despite my apparent complaint) in its predecesor.

    But, to sharpen the focus a little on the epistemology - some comments and a question.

    Consider the somewhat vague hypothesis "Genes that promote the fitness of the organisms that
    contain them will proliferate".

    This hypothesis certainly SEEMS to be testable - it is not pure mathematics. But there are
    problems when we try to clarify the meaning of the key words "fitness" and "proliferate".

    One possible issue with fitness is the old canard about "Natural Selection is a tautology." Ignore
    this - I don't want to go into this issue.


    I think you might end up there anyway! I'll just point out that fitness is defined to be specific to
    the environment, so if the environment changes, so might fitness.

    Quoted message said:

    A second issue is whether "fitness" should be inclusive fitness. I'm going to ignore this one too.
    Let John deal with it.

    In this post, I am going to focus on how "proliferate" should be clarified. I will list four
    possible meanings and ask which one is "correct".

    1. Proliferation means an increase in allele population over the short term. (i. e. Absolute)


    This would be absolute fitness. It has problems because you need to know about the demographics of
    the whole population, so you have to know about whether the population is at carrying capacity,
    for example.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Proliferation means an increase in allele frequency over the short term. (i. e. Relative to the
    allele's competitors)


    This is the way it's usually used. Note that now if the relative fitness is independent of density,
    then you can largely ignore demographics (OK, as long as extinction isn't likely!).

    Quoted message said:

    3. Proliferation means an increase in allele population over the long term.

    4. Proliferation means an increase in allele frequency over the long term.


    These two will without doubt include a lot of environmental variation, so hte best you can do is
    work with mean fitness.

    Quoted message said:

    Which of these is correct? That is, which of these things is Nature trying to increase?

    None of them, Nature just is!

    We're trying to describe Nature, so the question is which one of these provides the best
    description. There's nothing wrong with trying to use the different concepts at different times, as
    long as you're clear about which one you're using. if you use the wrong oneat the wrong time, I'm
    sure someone will point it out.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  16. "Anon." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I've changed the subject line, in a rare attempt to maintain relevance to the subject (by re-
    defining the subject!).

    Kevin Aylward said:
    Tim Tyler said:

    Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    >In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    >well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early,
    >the young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits),
    >are *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.

    Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn,
    and as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have
    failed 101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations
    that exist in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    Bob


    When you examine the relevant portions of his WEB pages, Mr. Aylward seems to be making four points:

    1. Dawkins' definition of "meme" should be extended to include all acquired information, including
    things learned by trial-and-error by non-social animals.

    2. Anyone that uses Dawkins' definition of "meme", rather than Aylward's is deserving of contempt
    and abuse.

    3. Dawkins is naive in suggesting the possible proliferation of "selfish memes", as natural
    selection of meme-carrying replicators will suppress such selfishness.

    4. Memetically caused behavior is more important than genetically caused behavior - hence the
    blather regarding Hamilton is a lot of barking up the wrong explanatory tree.

    Regarding these points, here is my opinion.

    5. By all means, expand the concept, but please use a different word for the expanded concept. May
    I suggest "software"?

    6. Grow up, Kevin!!

    7. This is kind of interesting. At first, I thought that Aylward was saying the same kind of thing
    as Edser. But, there is a chance that he is right. He needs to tighten up his argument, though.
    One step in that direction would be to formalize his theory of "meme" or software transmission.
    Is there a term similar in purpose to Hamilton's "r" - the likelihood that a "meme" has been or
    will be shared by transmission?

    8. Maybe, but first Kevin needs to make #3 a lot more convincing than he has so far. And, since the
    most widely accepted applications of Hamilton have been in the social insects, I don't know that
    software offers a better explanation there. It may well offer a better explanation of altruism
    in [censored]., and even in explaining alarm calls in other mammals.

  17. Jim Menegay said:

    "Anon." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I've changed the subject line, in a rare attempt to maintain relevance to the subject (by re-
    defining the subject!).

    Kevin Aylward said:

    Tim Tyler wrote:

    > Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
    >
    >
    >> In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It
    >> is well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too
    >> early, the young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual
    >> traits), are *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.
    >
    > Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn,
    and as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have
    failed 101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations
    that exist in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    Bob


    When you examine the relevant portions of his WEB pages, Mr. Aylward seems to be making
    four points:

    1. Dawkins' definition of "meme" should be extended to include all acquired information,
    including things learned by trial-and-error by non-social animals.

    Yep. In addition, I suspect that any learned behaviour will be stored in *exactly* the same way in
    the brain (neurons or whatever). It don't seem to make evolutionary sense that language, pictures
    and physical behaviour would be stored by different physical processes.

    Quoted message said:


    2. Anyone that uses Dawkins' definition of "meme", rather than Aylward's is deserving of contempt
    and abuse.

    No. However, Dawkins definition of a meme as something that self replicates is indeed false,
    therefore it must be dispensed with. As I noted, put a meme in a dish and wait for it to replicate.
    Its not a debatable issue. Dawkins made a mistake.

    Quoted message said:


    3. Dawkins is naive in suggesting the possible proliferation of "selfish memes", as natural
    selection of meme-carrying replicators will suppress such selfishness.

    I'm not quite sure what your saying here. But certainly, excluding magic, we are the sole result of
    physical processes, that exclude any notion of "I" having any real control over what we do. We are
    the result of the laws of physics. That is, meme and gene programming, and possibly quantum
    randomness.

    However, genes, whilst inventing memes, could not anticipate the properties of memes. The moral-
    emotion loop means that we can be programmed to feel good about anything, even if it is not in our
    own genetic interest. So in this sense, memes can override genes, so long as the total numbers of
    all Replicators carrying that meme are not reduced to zero.

    Quoted message said:


    4. Memetically caused behavior is more important than genetically caused behaviour -

    Not at all. No such claim was ever made. Whether genes or memes are the most prominent for a
    particular behaviour is specific to the situation. I explicitly point this out.

    My fundamental approach is the gene-meme machine. I am highlighting just how interconnected genes
    and memes are. Indeed, my approach is that separating out memes and genes is often misguided, the
    big picture are Replicators and their Replicants, in many cases the theory doesn't care at all
    whether the implementation of the Darwinian process is genes or memes. Thats why is called "General
    Replicator Theory".

    Quoted message said:

    hence the blather regarding Hamilton is a lot
    of barking up the wrong explanatory tree.

    No. I am pointing out there seems an undue emphasis on gene explanations. Meme explanations are
    trivial for aspects such as "die to save ones country", as the properties of memes act to maximise
    all Replicators. Occams razor would seem to be applicable here.

    Quoted message said:


    Regarding these points, here is my opinion.

    1. By all means, expand the concept, but please use a different word for the expanded concept.
    May I suggest "software"?

    The name is a bit of an issue as many have different definitions. I have introduced the separate
    notion of Replicator and Replicant, but meme is a bit entrenched now.

    Quoted message said:


    2. Grow up, Kevin!!

    If you show me where I used such terms, you might be correct.

    I agree, that I am a bit single minded on many aspects of my approach. The reason is that the
    fundamental overriding principle I use is "there is no magic". I am indoctrinated in this view.

    Quoted message said:


    3. This is kind of interesting. At first, I thought that Aylward was saying the same kind of
    thing as Edser. But, there is a chance that he is right. He needs to tighten up his argument,
    though. One step in that direction would be to formalize his theory of "meme" or software
    transmission.

    Actually, its not my idea at its root.

    ?Is there a term similar in purpose to

    Quoted message said:

    Hamilton's "r" - the likelihood that a "meme" has been or will be shared by transmission?

    In turns out, some of what I am doing is not actually new. Susan Blackmore,
    susanblackmore.co.uksusanblackmore.co.uk, in her book "The Meme Machine" describes how memes might solve the
    altrisum problem. However, its rather obtuse in my view, and not very convincing in the way it is
    presented. Obviously, it uses a concept of self replicating memes that is demonstrably false. What I
    am doing is cleaning up all the waffle by specifying exactly what the definitions are, what the
    axioms are, and why humans must obey those axioms.

    I have stated a few sketchs of bits and pieces of varies math bits, even have an example of using my
    Spice Software to solve evolution problems,
    e.g. see anasoft.co.ukcompetitionmath.html, end of page.

    If we consider the "self-sacrifice" meme we *know* that for example, in the armed forces that sort
    of meme is prevalent. Its what people do quite often. Clearly such behaviour, where only a few have
    died to save the rest of the teem *will* result in that meme surviving and being propagated down the
    generations of each the armed forces group.

    Note that a key point, not addressed by others using the meme approach, is the fact that we can be
    programed to feel good about anything, that is morals (memes) instruct what emotion (genes) is
    insigated. Without this concept, meme explanations fail at square 1 because it can't account for why
    we would actually kill ourselves. There *has* to be a perceived reason that the human Replicator
    actually copies and instigates the meme. Feeling good, is reason enough. Genes need no such reason
    as they are part of a self replicating machine.

    anasoft.co.ukemotions.html

    Quoted message said:


    4. Maybe, but first Kevin needs to make #3 a lot more convincing than he has so far. And, since
    the most widely accepted applications of Hamilton have been in the social insects, I don't
    know that software offers a better explanation there. It may well offer a better explanation
    of altruism in [censored]., and even in explaining alarm calls in other mammals.

    There is no reason to suggest that for all species that one method (gene or meme) is exclusively
    used. Its a trade off of what hardware is required for the adaptability that the species can deal
    with. Insects don't cope with much, so maybe they can have a bit of hardware to do the job. For
    humans, it just seems impossible that this can be the case. The environment that the human actually
    deals with is pretty large. We can survive landing on the moon. We know that babies, in contrast to
    animals, are much more of a blank sheet in what they can do. My experience, is that the most
    usefull machines have generalised input/output transducers, and the rest of the processing is all
    done in software.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  18. Kevin Aylward said:
    Anon. said:

    I've changed the subject line, in a rare attempt to maintain relevance to the subject (by re-
    defining the subject!).

    Kevin Aylward said:

    Tim Tyler wrote:

    >Kevin Aylward <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:
    >
    >
    >
    >>In my view, too much weight is being given to physical gene methods of trait propagation. It is
    >>well known that many animals have to teach their young to hunt. If the parents die too early,
    >>the young never learn and die. This tells us immediately that memes (copied virtual traits),
    >>are *immensely* significant to the survival of animals.
    >
    >Maybe - of the tiny proportion of animals that have parental care in the first place.

    That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn,
    and as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    What specific *animals* don't learn? How successful can such animals deal with being chased by a
    man with a gun?

    All the ones I can think of learn, e.g. cats, dogs, parrots, dolphins, lions, chimps etc...


    Try thinking of things like insects. They certainly don't pass on their leraning. I'm not sure that
    birds do, either, but i don't work on bird behaviour, so this might just be ignorance on my part.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have failed
    101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations that exist
    in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    You miss the fundamental point. Sure, a carrot has *some* ability to cope with a changing
    environment, but it can't run away from a man with a knife, so it most certainly can't deal with
    such a large variation in the environment, as I indeed correctly stated.


    It doesn't need to. It only needs to survive in the environment that it finds itself in. Indeed, I
    would suggest that the carrot is very successful, because of the man with the knife - he keeps on
    planting and growing them.

    Quoted message said:

    I am speciffically addressing the wide and *large* variation of all environments, and as I stated,
    it is essentially, *impossible* to make a *practical* physical hardware machine, that can deal
    with such general environments. It matters not that slightest that less adaptable entities can
    exist without software programmability. These are not really relevant to discussions of how mutual-
    cooperation can be accounted for. The fundamental point, being that memes, by their very nature,
    act to maximise total numbers of Replicators, and so are inherently altruistic from the point of
    view of the entity carrying such a meme and therefore *automatically* account for altruistic
    behaviour. anasoft.co.ukmemes.html

    For example, the well known vampire bats example. These bats have to recognise specific bats that
    don't reciprocate blood feeding so that they can punish them. This absolutely can *not* be
    accounted for by genes. The genes can not code remembrance for specific bats, as those bats have
    not even been born when the gene was constructed. Its the ability to copy and store *variable*
    information, i.e. *memes*, that make the vampire bat mutual co-operation system work.

    The principle here is that, sure, one can have a certain amount of environmental adaptability with
    fixed hardware, but it is still very, very limited. Evolution solved this problem by evolving
    software controlled machines. That's why your typing on a piece of hardware running a program.


    So why are bacteria so successful, then?

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  19. Anon. said:
    Kevin Aylward said:

    Anon. wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    >
    > That was only one particular illustration.

    But a more general point is still valid - only a small proportion of species are able to learn,
    and as importantly, pass that learning on to others.

    What specific *animals* don't learn? How successful can such animals deal with being chased by a
    man with a gun?

    All the ones I can think of learn, e.g. cats, dogs, parrots, dolphins, lions, chimps etc...


    Try thinking of things like insects.

    I am not interested in insects. I don't care that insects may or may not require memes. Insects are
    already well explained by existing theory. I am specifically addressing higher level animals
    adaptability to *all* environments.

    Quoted message said:

    They certainly don't pass on their leraning. I'm not sure that birds do,

    Bird song is well known.

    Quoted message said:

    either, but i don't work on bird behaviour, so this might just be ignorance on my part.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    > If your trying to suggest that animals learn nothing from their environment, you must have
    > failed 101 zoology. There is no way gene hardware can directly cope with the large variations
    > that exist in the environment,

    You've obviously never worked on plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. etc.

    You miss the fundamental point. Sure, a carrot has *some* ability to cope with a changing
    environment, but it can't run away from a man with a knife, so it most certainly can't deal with
    such a large variation in the environment, as I indeed correctly stated.


    It doesn't need to. It only needs to survive in the environment that it finds itself in. Indeed, I
    would suggest that the carrot is very successful, because of the man with the knife - he keeps on
    planting and growing them.

    Again, not relevant to the issues that I am particular interested in. I am concerned with the
    ability of animals to adapt to *all* environments. Its trivial that simple environments don't need
    much effort to adapt to them, so there is no point in discussing them. Its a done deal.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I am speciffically addressing the wide and *large* variation of all environments, and as I
    stated, it is essentially, *impossible* to make a *practical* physical hardware machine, that can
    deal with such general environments. It matters not that slightest that less adaptable entities
    can exist without software programmability. These are not really relevant to discussions of how
    mutual-cooperation can be accounted for. The fundamental point, being that memes, by their very
    nature, act to maximise total numbers of Replicators, and so are inherently altruistic from the
    point of view of the entity carrying such a meme and therefore *automatically* account for
    altruistic behaviour. anasoft.co.ukmemes.html

    For example, the well known vampire bats example. These bats have to recognise specific bats that
    don't reciprocate blood feeding so that they can punish them. This absolutely can *not* be
    accounted for by genes. The genes can not code remembrance for specific bats, as those bats have
    not even been born when the gene was constructed. Its the ability to copy and store *variable*
    information, i.e. *memes*, that make the vampire bat mutual co-operation system work.

    The principle here is that, sure, one can have a certain amount of environmental adaptability
    with fixed hardware, but it is still very, very limited. Evolution solved this problem by
    evolving software controlled machines. That's why your typing on a piece of hardware running a
    program.


    So why are bacteria so successful, then?

    Ho hummm...

    One specific bacteria can't survive in *all* environments. If I roast a bacteria and fire neutrons
    at it at 1000 deg it will die. Humans can make a big think lead lined box, put in massive amounts of
    air conditioning and survive.

    You still miss the fundamental point. Software programmability allows for, in principle, *any*
    environment. Other than basic laws of physics, there is no limit on what a very clever dude can
    do. For example, if our sun goes out, we can, in principle, go to another star system. Without
    the intelligence that memes provide, it would be impossible for hardware to evolve to solve such
    a problem.

    The principle is that evolution has evolved a meme-gene machine to cope with *anything* that might
    be thrown at it. Its irrelevant that not of this ability is required for all environments.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  20. Jim Menegay said:

    "Kevin Aylward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Jim Menegay said:


    2. Anyone that uses Dawkins' definition of "meme", rather than Aylward's is deserving of
    contempt and abuse. [snip]
    2. Grow up, Kevin!!

    If you show me where I used such terms, you might be correct.

    I agree, that I am a bit single minded on many aspects of my approach.

    Well, it appears that I have been invited to document instances of "contempt and abuse". And, if I
    succeed in doing so, I "might be correct".

    Indeed. Its the scientific method to substantiate a claim.

    Quoted message said:


    Well, thank you for the invitation, Kevin, but I decline. I would suggest, however, that you
    accept as subjectively true my *perception* that you were abusive.

    Of course I cannot do this. There was no abuse. Disagreeing with views is not abuse.

    Quoted message said:

    Then, you may take this one data point,

    This is not a data point as there has been no evidence presented that such a data point has
    any meaning.

    Quoted message said:

    add it to any others along the same lines you have received over the years, and decide whether
    there isn't some opportunity for learning here.

    I am always learning.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    The reason is that the fundamental overriding principle I use is "there is no magic". I am
    indoctrinated in this view.

    I don't think that that is a very good explanation of the phenomenon, since I doubt that believers
    in "magic" constitute a large proportion of the people

    Not at all. Most believe in magic without realising that this is the case. For example, it is only a
    minority that hold the view that the consciousness is absolutely nothing more than a passive
    observer. Many/most, imo, cannot see how a contrary view is a belief in magic.

    Quoted message said:

    who think that you are wrong, and thus become targets for abuse.

    There was no abuse. If there were, you would have provided proof.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

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