Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Bestes-est Carbon Frames

Volnix · 2014-01-16T15:00:03+00:00

Ok... so Carbon Frames are the norm these days and even with the UCI 6.8kg limit (is that still valid btw?) they are now 100% of the bikes in any organized event. Well maybe not Cycling Crash Derby but... Whilst checking some Carbon Fiber stuff the other day and mainly judging by the way the companies try to say how their frame is the bestes-est by lots and lots of chatter, there was info like: For example... Pinarello is saying that their frames are the best, they are using FEM method (with f@ck knows what load cases) to design theirs and they are also super light and super stiff with their Hatori Hanzo Organically Produced Carbon Fiber. Specialized is offering their "nothing is lighter and stiffer" stuff but some suspicity is generated on their manufacturing methods for anything less then the S-Works 5000+ euro stuff... (So if somebody pays less then 5000 euro is gonna find the welders coffee mug in the frame later?) Then is Cannondale with their "Save" stays, etc etc One company that kinda stood out is BMC. BMC is apparently manufacturing their stuff in a secret facility in the enchanted forest by High Elves (the low elves are just applying the decals) and thats only operating the Alien Technology Artificial Inteligence Robots (known by BMC as IMPEC). Apparently they are calculating all the frame separately for each frame, constructing all the joints and tubes specifically for that size and not just shortening the frames. They are using an external lug construction system instead of internal joints like the other companies do I guess... They look pretty convicing but then again... F@ck knows for what loads. Look is integrating everything, with weaves of carbon matching those of the handlebar, matching those of the jersey, for essentially having to replace even the QR axles in the case of a handlebar failure? Again with a drizzle of FEM... Some questions... -Which one of all them brands knitting carbon do you think its a very good Carbon Frame in the "light climber" category (not aero or semi-aero stuff, tested, reliable, stiff, fast) and what's its price? -Is it better to go for a complete bike or mix and match components ending up in a higher priced total? (Probably doesnt apply for Look) -Do you know of any brands that dont leave bladders, molds, coffe mugs etc left inside their frames? How about some who dont even use joints and just weave the whole thing in one go? (If possible). I kinda feel uneasy about a two line epoxy glued 2kg frame going over a pothole on a 50km/h descent... Thanks! [IMG]http://files.cyclingforums.com/smilies/smile.png[/IMG]

Started by Volnix · 16 January 2014 · Last activity 25 January 2014 · 35 posts · 2,302 views

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01 / Original postBestes-est Carbon FramesVolnix · 16 Jan 2014 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 2 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #35Volnix · 25 Jan 2014

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Original section: Cycling Equipment
Published: 16 January 2014
Last activity: 25 January 2014
Original author: Volnix
Posts: 35
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 2,302
Views / 30 days: 0
Topics: Carbon frames Electronic shifting Giant Cable routing Derailleur hangers Pedal choice Rear derailleurs Titanium frames

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Original post
Volnix
Archived post

16 January 2014, 15:00 UTC #1

Ok... so Carbon Frames are the norm these days and even with the UCI 6.8kg limit (is that still valid btw?) they are now 100% of the bikes in any organized event. Well maybe not Cycling Crash Derby but...
Whilst checking some Carbon Fiber stuff the other day and mainly judging by the way the companies try to say how their frame is the bestes-est by lots and lots of chatter, there was info like:
For example...
Pinarello is saying that their frames are the best, they are using FEM method (with f@ck knows what load cases) to design theirs and they are also super light and super stiff with their Hatori Hanzo Organically Produced Carbon Fiber.
Specialized is offering their "nothing is lighter and stiffer" stuff but some suspicity is generated on their manufacturing methods for anything less then the S-Works 5000+ euro stuff... (So if somebody pays less then 5000 euro is gonna find the welders coffee mug in the frame later?)
Then is Cannondale with their "Save" stays, etc etc
One company that kinda stood out is BMC.
BMC is apparently manufacturing their stuff in a secret facility in the enchanted forest by High Elves (the low elves are just applying the decals) and thats only operating the Alien Technology Artificial Inteligence Robots (known by BMC as IMPEC). Apparently they are calculating all the frame separately for each frame, constructing all the joints and tubes specifically for that size and not just shortening the frames. They are using an external lug construction system instead of internal joints like the other companies do I guess...
They look pretty convicing but then again... F@ck knows for what loads.
Look is integrating everything, with weaves of carbon matching those of the handlebar, matching those of the jersey, for essentially having to replace even the QR axles in the case of a handlebar failure? Again with a drizzle of FEM...
Some questions...
-Which one of all them brands knitting carbon do you think its a very good Carbon Frame in the "light climber" category (not aero or semi-aero stuff, tested, reliable, stiff, fast) and what's its price?
-Is it better to go for a complete bike or mix and match components ending up in a higher priced total? (Probably doesnt apply for Look)
-Do you know of any brands that dont leave bladders, molds, coffe mugs etc left inside their frames? How about some who dont even use joints and just weave the whole thing in one go? (If possible). I kinda feel uneasy about a two line epoxy glued 2kg frame going over a pothole on a 50km/h descent...
Thanks! [IMG]files.cyclingforums.comsmile.png[/IMG]

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maydog
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16 January 2014, 16:23 UTC #2

Obviously the most expensive one is the best.

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Volnix
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16 January 2014, 17:44 UTC #3

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by maydog
Obviously the most expensive one is the best.

Like with gold-coated decals and stuff? [IMG]files.cyclingforums.comtongue.png[/IMG]

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Cannondale evo
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17 January 2014, 01:10 UTC #4

I've 2 Evo. Hope you like my answer.

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CAMPYBOB
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17 January 2014, 20:15 UTC #5

Quote by Volnix:
"Hatori Hanzo Organically Produced Carbon Fiber."
That's the good stuff. It's Green an contributes to Global CoolingÂ©.
"Specialized is offering their "nothing is lighter and stiffer"..."
Except their lawyers' schlong going up your...
"Then is Cannondale with their "Save" stays, etc etc"
Yeah, Cannonwhale will save you, but this belongs in the Hollyweird/Satan thread.
"BMC is apparently manufacturing their stuff in a secret facility in the enchanted forest by High Elves..."
Because nothing says, "I'm an elf and I'm stoned.", like a gusseted seat stay cluster.
"Look is integrating everything, with weaves of carbon matching those of the handlebar, matching those of the jersey, for essentially having to replace even the QR axles in the case of a handlebar failure?"
It's French. What did you expect? Like a Peugeot or Citroen car, everything is proprietary and nothing works correctly, but hey, at least it's ugly and it has that going for it.
When Competitive Cyclist puts the already reasonably priced Wilier Izoard XP (made with Toray medium strength carbon and Ramen noodles) on sale, it's a hellova deal (if you can hold your nose and ride the [censored] stuff). And if it cracks, they'll give you a new one. Since you're so close to Slovenia, you might be able to drive to Tieste and tell them you're a famous Greek racer and get one for free. Or not.
Better yet, tell them alien said you're a bigot! Guarandamnteed to get you a free one.
Seriously, all of the brands you mentioned manufacture (or decal) damned good framesets. It's all in what you want to spend, what fits best and what rides well for YOU. Test ride a few. All of their 'unique' features will be sold to you as 'state of the art engineering' and all are more likely to be gimmicks designed, in reality, to separate their brand of decals from the herd. And separate your cash from your wallet.
If curly forks and stays were so awesome, every manufacturer would offer a 'better' version. If a gusset at the seat stay cluster turned mush into tool stool, every manufacturer would have some space-oid gusset in place there. If integrating everything from the crank to the seatpost and handlebars to the derailleur hanger made a Tour winner, we would all be on uni-piece 'assemblies'.

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jhuskey
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17 January 2014, 20:19 UTC #6

Fondriest make a good frame also. I had a Look frame that was excellent but the Fondriest is better imo. I have not riden the Pinarello Prince that my wife refuses to buy me.

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oldbobcat
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18 January 2014, 02:34 UTC #7

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
Fondriest make a good frame also. I had a Look frame that was excellent but the Fondriest is better imo. I have not riden the Pinarello Prince that my wife refuses to buy me.
Tyler Hamilton didn't like his Fondriest frame at all.
So what are you going to do about your wife and the Pinarello Prince?

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jhuskey
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18 January 2014, 10:25 UTC #8

It is cheaper to keep what I have. Wife and frame Hamilton sort of lost his credibility with me a long time ago.

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Volnix
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18 January 2014, 14:27 UTC #9

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
When Competitive Cyclist puts the already reasonably priced Wilier Izoard XP (made with Toray medium strength carbon and Ramen noodles) on sale, it's a hellova deal (if you can hold your nose and ride the [censored] stuff). And if it cracks, they'll give you a new one.
Actually I was checking these... They make some very lightweight stuff if I remember correctly... So are they that cool with warantees? Sounds interesting...
Quote: Since you're so close to Slovenia, you might be able to drive to Tieste and tell them you're a famous Greek racer and get one for free. Or not.
I'll tell them that I am a cyclist with the Psychiatric Hospital's team (the patients one)... We are called "Cycling la Vida Loca"... [IMG]files.cyclingforums.combig smile.png[/IMG] Maybe I'll get a jersey with extra long sleeves too... [IMG]files.cyclingforums.combig smile.png[/IMG]

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CAMPYBOB
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19 January 2014, 02:04 UTC #10

Competitive Cyclist and Wilier (made in China, by people that care!) replaced my cracked Izoard and they did it with a smile and an apology. They were very professional and friendly.
The Izoard is a great racing frame for those that shed real tears when some dweeb takes down half the field and your $8,000 McLaren Venge is turned into a carbon fiber lamp fixture for your workshop.
The Izoard is stiff enough and light enough and cheap enough. After the 'cheap' part, it's all in what you can afford and want to risk. Be advised that just like in the days of yore when manly men rode 21-pound boat anchors made of manly steel, geometry and fit along with the desired ride and handling are still king. Different manufacturers make fits that work well for rider 'A', not so well for rider 'B'.
For example...
Three years ago Bike Nashbar had an amazing killer deal on very cool, very good looking Eyetalian frameset. It has stunning paint, excellent specifications for build and a $1400 price tag on sale that was reduced to an $1100 blowout...and a geometry so compact there was absolutely no way I could get it to work for me!
Like Maydog, I was eyeballing seatback seatposts, stack options up front, a spine replacement to get me into the extreme drop, weird stems...I had to pass.
Buy for the fit and the ride. The name on the decal is almost meaningless these days, sadly.
Quote by JH:
"It is cheaper to keep what I have. Wife and frame"
In the long run, new bikes are a poor investment. A younger, wealthier wife, on the other hand...

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Volnix
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19 January 2014, 02:06 UTC #11

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
... the Pinarello...
"I'll make it nice and stiff eeeh?" [IMG]files.cyclingforums.combig smile.png[/IMG]

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oldbobcat
Archived post

19 January 2014, 04:47 UTC #12

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by jhuskey
It is cheaper to keep what I have. Wife and frame
Hamilton sort of lost his credibility with me a long time ago.
I was hoping you'd say that. But not as much as your wife.

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oldbobcat
Archived post

19 January 2014, 04:56 UTC #13

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
The Izoard is stiff enough and light enough and cheap enough. After the 'cheap' part, it's all in what you can afford and want to risk. Be advised that just like in the days of yore when manly men rode 21-pound boat anchors made of manly steel, geometry and fit along with the desired ride and handling are still king. Different manufacturers make fits that work well for rider 'A', not so well for rider 'B'.
For example...
Three years ago Bike Nashbar had an amazing killer deal on very cool, very good looking Eyetalian frameset. It has stunning paint, excellent specifications for build and a $1400 price tag on sale that was reduced to an $1100 blowout...and a geometry so compact there was absolutely no way I could get it to work for me!
Like Maydog, I was eyeballing seatback seatposts, stack options up front, a spine replacement to get me into the extreme drop, weird stems...I had to pass.
Buy for the fit and the ride. The name on the decal is almost meaningless these days, sadly.
That's about the way I feel about the Madone 5 I bought a little more than a year ago. It's probably my last bike, and I'm OK with that.
Carbon is still a little spooky for me--well, not the carbon, but the resin that holds the carbon together. Trek's pitch on OCLV, and their frame warranty, made sense for me.

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Scott2468
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19 January 2014, 05:38 UTC #14

After one year I have a confession to make. I prefer my 2003 alum Ultegra 6500 TCR over my 2013 fibre DI2 TCR. The alum TCR seems stiffer, faster with more giddy up. The DI2 is precise and responsive buts feels robotic. My 6500 is smooth and seamless. We feel like one together.

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Volnix
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19 January 2014, 12:14 UTC #15

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by oldbobcat
Carbon is still a little spooky for me--well, not the carbon, but the resin that holds the carbon together. Trek's pitch on OCLV, and their frame warranty, made sense for me.
+1 (but of course I was spooked about clipless pedals for quite some time too [IMG]files.cyclingforums.combig smile.png[/IMG])
Apparently carbon fibre has even better fatigue strength properties then steel. Actually they say that carbon will never break due to cycle loads... But thatâ€™s probably just the carbon fibre and not the resin...
Hauling 2kg less on a climb doesnâ€™t sound too bad though...
But how can they be more expensive then Aluminium? How much does 2kg of 6xxx type Aluminium cost? On a quick google search it seems that 3 layers of carbon fibre (basically something enough to make a bicycle) costs around 200euro...
Hydroforming of aluminium tubes is a sight... The machinery involved is huge and the energy needed is also much more then carbon manufacturing... Especially if the carbon frames are made by hand by rolling the carbon layers over the molds.
Maybe the BMC's IMPEC system is more difficult to built with its "on the spot knitting" of each carbon thread over the mold but still it seems easier then hydroforming...
http://www.bmc-racing.com/int-en/impec/technologies/

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danfoz
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19 January 2014, 14:25 UTC #16

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by Scott2468
We feel like one together.

Profound. Despite the purchase of my new SuperSix, I am holding on to my alu Cinelli frame for this very reason... just in case. I'd only get about $150 for it anyways.

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oldbobcat
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19 January 2014, 22:20 UTC #17

Quoted post said:
Originally Posted by Volnix
+1 (but of course I was spooked about clipless pedals for quite some time too [IMG]files.cyclingforums.combig smile.png[/IMG])
Apparently carbon fibre has even better fatigue strength properties then steel. Actually they say that carbon will never break due to cycle loads... But thatâ€™s probably just the carbon fibre and not the resin...
Unquestionably.
There's a 2007 Giant TCR C0 frame in my garage that I won't even put on ebay because of the ways it began to sag and creak and wobble in crosswinds. And several people with considerable experience in the business have confirmed that the problem was in the resin and my experience was not imaginary or unique.
The cost is in the R&D, figuring out how to get the resins and compression right and exactly how to do the layups to come up with a 700g frame that doesn't whip like a 25-inch PX-10. Which means that any day now, open-mold carbon frames from China should become available for about 500 euro. Oh, right, they already are.

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CAMPYBOB
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20 January 2014, 00:59 UTC #18

Quote by OBC:
" frame that doesn't whip like a 25-inch PX-10."
Great metaphor.
In my case, a 60 Cm PY-10. Seamed forks plus thinwall 531 = YIKES! with knees crushing the top tube on 45 MPH descents. If your Giant was really that bad, it deserves to be in the garage with 1/2" holes drilled through the three main tubes.

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oldbobcat
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21 January 2014, 04:28 UTC #19

You're right, Bob. Or maybe I should cut it into a shop stool.
Hey, I still have the cracked carbon seatpost. Now if I could find a NOS Selle Italia Turbo with alloy rails, that would be cool.

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CAMPYBOB
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21 January 2014, 11:40 UTC #20

A shop stool might still invite failure. Better turn it into a lamp!
Hmmmm? I wonder if the new carbon fiber Peugeots are anything more than a pretty face?
[IMG]cyclingforums.com1000[/IMG]

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