Old issue: weight loss and swimming (sorry to beat a dead horse)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've been combining swimming with cycling, and feel like it really helps my power kick during
the crawl. Maybe others report the same.

I don't have the background to account for this in a scientific sense, but when I started running
6-7 miles a day at around age 32, my sprint times in swimming dropped to the level they were when I
was competing in college with perhaps 1/4 the swimming yardage invested. I was kind of a slow
developer, so that may have played a factor too - but I can' help but believe the running played a
role in some way, shape or form.

- Al

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your core
body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

your friend is talking 'bunk' IMO. The core temperature of swimmers is often higher than that of
other comparative fitness sports, for the simple fact that exercising in the water (only rarely are
pools for rec swimmers at the cooler end of the spectrum) is akin to exercising in warm air.
swimmers simply do not realise exactly how much they lose in terms of sweat (some of my own
swimmers can easily lose up to three pounds in a 150 minute practice when they don't
drink)..however i digress.

obviously this is related to how hard you're working. leisurely paced swimming is like leisurely
paced anything. to say that swimming doesn't raise the core temperature is in fact, untrue.

steve

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know there are plenty of threads on this group concerning this subject. But here's one take
that I haven't seen:

When I put in a good mile swim, after a modest grapenuts breakfast and OJ, then after my swim I
have a tuna salad for lunch (no mayo), I am absolutely FAMISHED by dinner time. I want a huge
pile of spaghetti and meatballs, etc, and a pint of icecream for desert. :-) Here's in lies the
contractiction, eh? Should I swim 5 miles instead? :-)

I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your core
body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

BTW, I've been combining swimming with cycling, and feel like it really helps my power kick
during the crawl. Maybe others report the same.

-Chuck in Massachusetts

I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a day...
6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2
dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't go over
what I need. I also watch that I take in enough protein, not a lot of fat (I shoot for 15%,
probably end up with 20-25% calories from fat), and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and
activity level, I take in around 3000 calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I
was dieting little more strictly.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a
day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm
down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't
go over what I need. I also watch that I take in enough protein, not a lot of fat (I shoot for
15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from fat), and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my
size and activity level, I take in around 3000 calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I
would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow! "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message> I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only
exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained about
10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra hungry, but
I count calories, make sure I don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in enough
protein, not a lot of fat (I shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from fat), and
the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000 calories a
day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow, I wish I had the time to put in that kind of effort. I'm doing about 4800 meters a week if I'm
lucky, sometimes less if I cycle instead (a lunch hour is a lunch hour). But it's doing it at all
that counts, I suppose! One thing that is fortunate is that I work at a university that has an
olympic size pool, and it is totally underutilized during my lunch hour, so guess where I go? :-)

Thanks all for the great feedback!

-Chuck

diablo said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your core
body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

your friend is talking 'bunk' IMO. The core temperature of swimmers is often higher than that of
other comparative fitness sports, for the simple fact that exercising in the water (only rarely
are pools for rec swimmers at the cooler end of the spectrum) is akin to exercising in warm air.
swimmers simply do not realise exactly how much they lose in terms of sweat (some of my own
swimmers can easily lose up to three pounds in a 150 minute practice when they don't
drink)..however i digress.

obviously this is related to how hard you're working. leisurely paced swimming is like leisurely
paced anything. to say that swimming doesn't raise the core temperature is in fact, untrue.

steve

There was another thread either here or in the rec.sports.triathlon not too long ago that had
another explanation. I'm not sure I remember it exactly, but I think it basically said that your
upper body has a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscles that use relatively more of your high
availability fuels. IIRC, there was also a pointer to a research piece that indicated that swimming
affected blood suger levels more than a similar amount of running/cycling, etc. that used
predominately legs instead of upper body muscles. I think someone called this the "white meat v. red
meat" difference.

[email hidden] (Chuck Wyatt) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a
day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm
down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra hungry, but I count calories, make sure I
don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in enough protein, not a lot of fat (I
shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from fat), and the rest i carbs. I like
carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000 calories a day. Probably about 500
more than I would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow! "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message> I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The
only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained
about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra
hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in
enough protein, not a lot of fat (I shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from
fat), and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000
calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow, I wish I had the time to put in that kind of effort. I'm doing about 4800 meters a week if
I'm lucky, sometimes less if I cycle instead (a lunch hour is a lunch hour). But it's doing it at
all that counts, I suppose! One thing that is fortunate is that I work at a university that has an
olympic size pool, and it is totally underutilized during my lunch hour, so guess where I go? :-)

Thanks all for the great feedback!

-Chuck

well the reason you are starving is because of the amount of gylcogen burned during swimming, which
is mainly an upper body sport, and upper body muscles tend to burn glycogen not fat for energy. that
being said when I finally went on a low carb diet, my cravings for food vanished, and when i am done
with 5 or 6k i eat a small snack, like a handfull of almonds, a peice of smoked salmon, etc. I used
to come home and gorge.

Even with swimming anywhere from 15 to 20+k yards a week, i managed to put on close to 20 pounds
over a period of a year or two. the bottom line, i was eating too much, but when you are starving,
like i was , there was no way to stop.

Since going low carb, i've dropped 45 pounds, swimming great, and can manage my eating by avoiding
the cravings for food after exercise.

Now I don't know to profess all of the scientific details for any of this, I can only relate to my
own experience.

Art

diablo said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your core
body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

your friend is talking 'bunk' IMO. The core temperature of swimmers is often higher than that of
other comparative fitness sports, for the simple fact that exercising in the water (only rarely are
pools for rec swimmers at the cooler end of the spectrum) is akin to exercising in warm air.

Do you have info that backs this up? Just curious as it goes against alot of what I thought
I understood/assumed. Water is a much more effecient for removing heat than is air. Air is
nearly an insulator when compared to water. I would agree here that water temperature plays
a major role but this also plays to the idea that water is much more likely to raise or
lower ones core temperature. One would be much more likely to survive naked in 45 degree air
than in 45 degree water. Small changes in water temperature make huge changes to core
temperature. Swimming in 65 degree water is COLD running in 65 degree air is still pretty
warm. Swimming in 85 degree water is HOT running in 85 degree air is only fairly hot.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

steve

(Chuck Wyatt) said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a
day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm
down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra hungry, but I count calories, make sure I
don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in enough protein, not a lot of fat (I
shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from fat), and the rest i carbs. I like
carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000 calories a day. Probably about 500
more than I would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow! "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message> I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The
only exercise I do is swimming. About 3000M a day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also gained
about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra
hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in
enough protein, not a lot of fat (I shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from
fat), and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000
calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I was dieting little more strictly.

Wow, I wish I had the time to put in that kind of effort. I'm doing about 4800 meters a week if I'm
lucky, sometimes less if I cycle instead (a lunch hour is a lunch hour). But it's doing it at all
that counts, I suppose! One thing that is fortunate is that I work at a university that has an
olympic size pool, and it is totally underutilized during my lunch hour, so guess where I go? :-)

Thanks all for the great feedback!

-Chuck

Lets put this in perspective. An "average" swimmer burns roughly (This is highly dependant
on "effeciency"😉 100 calories in a 500yd swim. that means your 4800M swim is burning around
1050 calories (including conversion from yards to meters). A 10oz glass of orange juice
contains 140 calories. Seven glass of OJ a week roughly 980 calories. That glass of OJ you
have in the morning, yep thats how many calories you burn for all that swimming. Granted
excercise is great for helping as a weightloss aid, however its even better for other health
reasons. Reguardless of what method (Read latest fad diet) you choose, the end factor in
almost every case is less calories in more calories out. IMO it's much easier to control
calories going in than it is to burn them off. In order to lose one pound of fat a week app
3500 calories a person would have to run approximately 35miles....Every week. Of course to
completely counteract your 35mi of running you could simply go to Wendy's and order a Bacon
Classic Chesse Burger, Great Biggie fries and a Medium Frostie twice a week. As far as
tricks and tips to loose weight, make it simple. Find out what satisfies you and keeps you
from "feeling starved". Don't "deprive" yourself. It's ok to have a candy bar or some other
snack(Cheese cake is my personal demon) But have a smaller piece or in my case don't eat the
whole damn cake. Eating often is a much better option for me than eating a few meals a day.
Types of foods, fruits vegatables, lean meats etc give me a fuller feeling with fewer
calories. Everyone is different, experiment find out what works for you.

~Matt

as long as your core temperature is working towards the upper end of the critical limits, blood is
shunted to the surface away from the core, (coupled with the sweating response as a medium employs
convection as a mechanism) for heat dissipation. the core temperature remains near the critical
limits as long as you are working at that output.

as for your example regarding the temperatures, don't confuse heat loss in survival mode (CT is
closer to lower critical limit) vs. heat loss while working (CT is closer to higher critical limit).

Yes, you're right, air does a poorer job of convection vs water, simply due to surface area exposed
to the medium, hence the smaller more intense effect of water temperature. However, i'd urge you to
consider how warm most pools are. for rec swimmers, it isn't a problem, as those pools are designed
for those not pushing higher critical temperatures while exercising - for swimmers working within
80% of VO2Max, it gets to be a problem.

If you want further details regarding this, email me, and i'll send you some references. my own
interest in this subject comes from research i've done in the area of whole-body pre-cooling as an
aid in endurance performance. the results of the first field study in the series demonstrated that
swimmers reached critical temperatures before runners in a comparative performance test. i'm pretty
sure that that would be a bit OT to go in to further details now - so, email me if you want to talk
further about it 🙂

steve

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

diablo said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your
core body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

your friend is talking 'bunk' IMO. The core temperature of swimmers is

often

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

higher than that of other comparative fitness sports, for the simple fact that exercising in the
water (only rarely are pools for rec swimmers at

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cooler end of the spectrum) is akin to exercising in warm air.

Do you have info that backs this up? Just curious as it goes against alot of what I thought I
understood/assumed. Water is a much more effecient for removing heat than is air. Air is nearly an
insulator when compared to water. I would agree here that water temperature plays a major role but
this also plays to the idea that water is much more likely to raise or lower ones core
temperature. One would be much more likely to survive naked in 45 degree air than in 45 degree
water. Small changes in water temperature make huge changes to core temperature. Swimming in 65
degree water is COLD running in 65 degree air is still pretty warm. Swimming in 85 degree water is
HOT running in 85 degree air is only fairly hot.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

steve

MJuric said:

Lets put this in perspective. An "average" swimmer burns roughly (This is highly dependant on
"effeciency"😉 100 calories in a 500yd swim. that means your 4800M swim is burning around 1050
calories (including conversion from yards to meters). A 10oz glass of orange juice contains 140
calories. Seven glass of OJ a week roughly 980 calories. That glass of OJ you have in the morning,
yep thats how many calories you burn for all that swimming.

I have read that one of the benefits of exercise is that it raises your metabolism for quite a bit
of time beyond the period of exercise. I'm not sure how to calculate that additional caloric
expenditure, but it isn't quite as simple as stated above.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have read that one of the benefits of exercise is that it raises your metabolism for quite a bit
of time beyond the period of exercise. I'm not sure how to calculate that additional caloric
expenditure, but it isn't quite as simple as stated above.

Exercise that depletes muscle glycogen, or causes micro-damage to the muscle will cause the
metabolic rate to be higher in the 24-36 hours post exercise. Weight lifting at moderate to high %of
1RM is an example of such.

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I lost 7% body fat over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is
swimming. About 3000M a day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also

gained

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra
hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in
enough protein,

not a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot of fat (I shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from

fat),

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000
calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I was dieting little more

strictly.

Quoted message said:

Wow! "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<KDsKb.47366$m83.22184@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message> I lost 7% body fat

over last 5.5 months. The only exercise I do is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

swimming. About 3000M a day... 6000M about 2-3 times a week. I also

gained

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 10 pounds of muscle in that time. I'm down 2 dress sizes. Yea, swimming makes me extra
hungry, but I count calories, make sure I don't go over what I need. I also watch that I take in
enough protein,

not a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lot of fat (I shoot for 15%, probably end up with 20-25% calories from

fat),

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the rest i carbs. I like carbs. At my size and activity level, I take in around 3000
calories a day. Probably about 500 more than I would if I was dieting little more

strictly.

Quoted message said:

Wow, I wish I had the time to put in that kind of effort. I'm doing about 4800 meters a week if
I'm lucky, sometimes less if I cycle instead (a lunch hour is a lunch hour). But it's doing it at
all that counts, I suppose! One thing that is fortunate is that I work at a university that has an
olympic size pool, and it is totally underutilized during my lunch hour, so guess where I go? :-)

Thanks all for the great feedback!

-Chuck

You're welcome. Olympic size pools are awesome. Where I swim, we have one of those, and two smaller
25Mx25Y pools. love the facility (even though half of it is under construction right now -
renovations)

diablo said:

as long as your core temperature is working towards the upper end of the critical limits, blood is
shunted to the surface away from the core, (coupled with the sweating response as a medium employs
convection as a mechanism) for heat dissipation. the core temperature remains near the critical
limits as long as you are working at that output.

as for your example regarding the temperatures, don't confuse heat loss in survival mode (CT
is closer to lower critical limit) vs. heat loss while working (CT is closer to higher
critical limit).

Yes, you're right, air does a poorer job of convection vs water, simply due to surface area exposed
to the medium, hence the smaller more intense effect of water temperature. However, i'd urge you to
consider how warm most pools are. for rec swimmers, it isn't a problem, as those pools are designed
for those not pushing higher critical temperatures while exercising - for swimmers working within
80% of VO2Max, it gets to be a problem.

If you want further details regarding this, email me, and i'll send you some references. my own
interest in this subject comes from research i've done in the area of whole-body pre-cooling as an
aid in endurance performance. the results of the first field study in the series demonstrated that
swimmers reached critical temperatures before runners in a comparative performance test. i'm pretty
sure that that would be a bit OT to go in to further details now - so, email me if you want to talk
further about it 🙂

steve

Seems to me that if the water temperature gets low enough heat will be lost faster than it
can be created. No doubt that temperature of the water is a much higher critical factor to
performance in the water than air temperature is in running. This is probably due to the
lower ability of air to transfer heat. If one is swimming in water that is to warm they
will overheat sooner, the opposite condition woudl seem to also occur in water sooner.
Swimming in to cold of water will cause hypothermia. I'll send you an message, please send
me what you have.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

diablo said:

"Chuck Wyatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

> I have a friend that says, that the real problem is that with swimming you don't raise your
> core body temperature enough to really burn off the fat/calories, but I think that is bunk.

your friend is talking 'bunk' IMO. The core temperature of swimmers is

often

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

higher than that of other comparative fitness sports, for the simple fact that exercising in the
water (only rarely are pools for rec swimmers at

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cooler end of the spectrum) is akin to exercising in warm air.

Do you have info that backs this up? Just curious as it goes against alot of what I thought I
understood/assumed. Water is a much more effecient for removing heat than is air. Air is nearly
an insulator when compared to water. I would agree here that water temperature plays a major role
but this also plays to the idea that water is much more likely to raise or lower ones core
temperature. One would be much more likely to survive naked in 45 degree air than in 45 degree
water. Small changes in water temperature make huge changes to core temperature. Swimming in 65
degree water is COLD running in 65 degree air is still pretty warm. Swimming in 85 degree water
is HOT running in 85 degree air is only fairly hot.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

steve

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:29:57 GMT, Donal Fagan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

Lets put this in perspective. An "average" swimmer burns roughly (This is highly dependant on
"effeciency"😉 100 calories in a 500yd swim. that means your 4800M swim is burning around 1050
calories (including conversion from yards to meters). A 10oz glass of orange juice contains 140
calories. Seven glass of OJ a week roughly 980 calories. That glass of OJ you have in the morning,
yep thats how many calories you burn for all that swimming.

I have read that one of the benefits of exercise is that it raises your metabolism for quite a bit
of time beyond the period of exercise. I'm not sure how to calculate that additional caloric
expenditure, but it isn't quite as simple as stated above.

Nothing is as quite as simple as stated.

The point is very simple. It's very easy to replace calories that are burn't via excercise,
however you want to calculate caloric expenditure. The "effect" you mention is a real one.
However calories burnt post workout are generally not nearly as high as those burnt during
the activity. Of course you can also say that excercise adds muscle and raises metabolism
and eating certain foods burn easier blah blah blah.... The point again is very simple for
all but a few "flyers" that are unusual. Take in less calories than you burn. Of course
everyone is different and what works for me may not work for you but the end result is
almost always the same.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)