NYC ticket technicalities - no signature

From somewhere in cyberspace said:

I got a ticket in NYC today for running a red light. Well, actually it was for stopping on the
wrong side of the crosswalk, and I didn't actually run the light. Whatever. It's still $100.

Where and when did this happen? Was there anything else going on that called the cops attention to
you, or were they just waiting for unwary cyclists to hassle?

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if the fact that I didn't sign the ticket (nor was I asked to) means that I can just
ignore it.

If you gave them your real name and address, ignoring it is not an option. You will eventually end
up in traffic court and the cop will say he recognizes you as the person who committed the
violation, and that will be good enough for the judge.
--
eravin@ | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full panix.com | value of a joy you must
have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

Right. It's a little known fact that, even with Murder 1, if you don't sign that little
acknowledgement, you're home free. Otherwise, it's the chair.

"somebody" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I got a ticket in NYC today for running a red light. Well, actually it was for stopping on the
wrong side of the crosswalk, and I didn't actually run the light. Whatever. It's still $100.

I'm wondering if the fact that I didn't sign the ticket (nor was I asked to) means that I can just
ignore it. The place where I would have been asked to sign reads "I acknowledge receipt of this
summons. I understand it is my responsibility to read and comply with the instructions on my copy,
and that my signature below is not an admission of guilt."

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received it?
I feel like if I plead not guilty it will be an admission that I did, in fact, receive the ticket,
and in that case would I stil be able to argue at the hearing that the lack of signature nullifies
the ticket?

(Also, under "Complainant's Full Name (printed)," there's just a scrawled last name, no full name,
but that seems minor enough that it's not even worth bringing up.)

Thanks for any advice.

Ed Ravin said:

From somewhere in cyberspace said:

I got a ticket in NYC today for running a red light. Well, actually it was for stopping on the
wrong side of the crosswalk, and I didn't actually run the light. Whatever. It's still $100.

Where and when did this happen? Was there anything else going on that called the cops attention to
you, or were they just waiting for unwary cyclists to hassle?

This morning, at 6th Avenue and 40th Street. The cop was in one of those little white carts. Nothing
else was going on; I just stopped on the wrong side of the crosswalk.

Quoted message said:

If you gave them your real name and address, ignoring it is not an option. You will eventually end
up in traffic court and the cop will say he recognizes you as the person who committed the
violation, and that will be good enough for the judge.

Thanks for the advice.

somebody said:

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received it?
I feel like if I plead not guilty it will be an admission that I did, in fact, receive the ticket,
and in that case would I stil be able to argue at the hearing that the lack of signature nullifies
the ticket?

(Also, under "Complainant's Full Name (printed)," there's just a scrawled last name, no full name,
but that seems minor enough that it's not even worth bringing up.)

well, that depends on how much info they have on you. did you show the cop any ID? if they don't
have your name and address, how would they identify or find you?

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any advice.

sorry, can't do that. only a lawyer can do that without violating the law. if you're really worried,
you should talk to an attorney knowledgable in bicycle and traffic issues.

Quoted message said:

somebody [email hidden]

trolled in part:

Quoted message said:

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received it?

You'd make this claim to who and under what circumstances? To a judge in court? That supposes that
you'll end up in court somehow, possibly when you get stopped by the police again and the officer
discovers that an arrest warrant was issued for you for failing to appear in court originally. The
answer is simple. Either you opt to go to court on a date you know about in advance and so can
adjust your schedule accordingly or you choose Option B, one of never knowing when you'll be
stopped by the police for another minor infraction and get whisked off to jail for a bond hearing
at the court's convenience. It seems a simple choice to me. Of course, you *could* be intending to
make the argument "I never got any such summons" to the next police officer that stops you when he
discovers the warrant for your arrest. Yeah... that will work. I let subjects wanted on warrants go
all the time if they tell me they didn't do it because it's a well known fact that people *never*
lie to the police.

Regards, Bob Hunt

somebody <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I got a ticket in NYC today for running a red light. Well, actually it was for stopping on the
wrong side of the crosswalk, and I didn't actually run the light. Whatever. It's still $100.

I'm wondering if the fact that I didn't sign the ticket (nor was I asked to) means that I can just
ignore it. The place where I would have been asked to sign reads "I acknowledge receipt of this
summons. I understand it is my responsibility to read and comply with the instructions on my copy,
and that my signature below is not an admission of guilt."

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received it?
I feel like if I plead not guilty it will be an admission that I did, in fact, receive the ticket,
and in that case would I stil be able to argue at the hearing that the lack of signature nullifies
the ticket?

(Also, under "Complainant's Full Name (printed)," there's just a scrawled last name, no full name,
but that seems minor enough that it's not even worth bringing up.)

Thanks for any advice.

my understanding is that, technically, you're under arrest when receiving a ticket and by signing,
your are promising to appear and are released OR. since you didn't sign, you've made no promise.
of course, some guy in a black robe may decide that your receipt of the ticket is a de facto
signature. chk around, it's easy to get free real legal advise in a big city. if i were you & no-
showed, i'd chk to made sure it did not go to warrant _after_ the speedy trial period for you
local; you don't need no surprises. (i knew this stuff better back in the murdercycle dazes.) so,
how many people did you run over in the crosswalk?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

somebody said:

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received
it? I feel like if I plead not guilty it will be an admission that I did, in fact, receive the
ticket, and in that case would I stil be able to argue at the hearing that the lack of signature
nullifies the ticket?

(Also, under "Complainant's Full Name (printed)," there's just a scrawled last name, no full
name, but that seems minor enough that it's not even worth bringing up.)

well, that depends on how much info they have on you. did you show the cop any ID? if they don't
have your name and address, how would they identify or find you?

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any advice.

sorry, can't do that. only a lawyer can do that without violating the law.

Not true; we can give any advice we want without violating any laws. It's just that he'd be stupid
to take it without further research or competent legal advice <GGG>.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:40:11 -0500, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

somebody said:

If I ignore it, and it doesn't have my signature, can I plausibly claim to have never received
it? I feel like if I plead not guilty it will be an admission that I did, in fact, receive the
ticket, and in that case would I stil be able to argue at the hearing that the lack of
signature nullifies the ticket?

(Also, under "Complainant's Full Name (printed)," there's just a scrawled last name, no full
name, but that seems minor enough that it's not even worth bringing up.)

well, that depends on how much info they have on you. did you show the cop any ID? if they don't
have your name and address, how would they identify or find you?

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any advice.

sorry, can't do that. only a lawyer can do that without violating the law.

Not true; we can give any advice we want without violating any laws. It's just that he'd be stupid
to take it without further research or competent legal advice <GGG>.

Guys, guys, can't we just give the 'right'(tm) answer?

Nobody's self-esteem, sense of what's right, not to mention the 'look over your shoulder factor', is
worth the paltry sum of $100 bucks.

I say take the ticket to the precinct, get the officer to meet with you, give him a donation to the
police benevolent fund and ask him to help you get your ticket completed so you don't show up in
court and find you're not on the docket.

After he's completed your ticket, tell him he's a great guy and the most friendly and professional
LEO you ever had to deal with, and that was 1, him, since you've never had a ticket before in
newyork (on your bike). Then say have a good one, and walk out jauntily, a song in your step and a
lilt in your voice. Er, or the converse. ;-)

HTH,

-B

Stephen Bauman said:

What section of the Vehicle & Traffic Law or NYC Traffic Regulation was cited in the summons?

VTL 1111/D1, which deals with red lights.