Cycle lanes ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I dunno what a 'Sheffield Stand' is .

Its what the Americans call a "Philadelphia rack"

Which isn't too helpful really ..

It's a kind of bike rack. It looks like a squared off upside down U, more or less.

Jeremy Parker

Paul - censored said:

Ian Smith deftly scribbled:

Quoted message said:

I am. Overall (on average) they are a waste of money that makes cycling more dangerous -
dramatically so for the people conned into using them, and slightly so for the people that
sensibly avoid them.

Do you mostly ride in a city then ?

It doesn't possess a cathedral, but I mostly ride in busy urban areas, yes. Certainly, teh vast
majority of my interactions with moron cagers occur in urban areas.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Much better if all teh moneyt spent painting inappropriate bits of tarmac red had been spent
putting sheffield stands all over the place,

I dunno what a 'Sheffield Stand' is .. a bike park ? Must admit that's my biggest gripe when I do
cycle to Nottingham, there's some parking for bikes, but the railings often seem safer .. 😉

Steel tube 50mm or more in diameter, emerges vertically from the ground to a height of 80 cm or so,
bends 90 degrees and travels horizontally a variable length up to about a metre, bends 90 degrees
and heads back underground.

The best sort of bike-rack there is - as good a stand as a set of decent railings (though beware
that a lump hammer can break cast-iron railings - traffic sign posts are more secure than ornamental
railings, so long as the sign is big enough and high enough).

regards, Ian SMith
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Paul - censored said:

most of my cycling is outside of Nottingham, and the roads with cycle lanes / paths are generally
wide and free flowing. Which I guess makes a real difference .. 😉

On wide and free-flowing roads I've never felt the need for a cycle lane. Some cycle *paths* are
good - like the Sustrans route from Bath to Bristol - but most shred use paths are worthless for
functional cyclists as you can't safely do more than about 12-15mph because of the peds.

Guy
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Jeremy Parker deftly scribbled:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I dunno what a 'Sheffield Stand' is .

Its what the Americans call a "Philadelphia rack"

Which isn't too helpful really ..

It's a kind of bike rack. It looks like a squared off upside down U, more or less.

OK, thanks .. 😉

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John said:

7. Having paid for the roads through general taxation, I shall cycle, within the law, wherever I
damn well please.

Seems fair to me :-)

Guy
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Paul - censored said:

They weren't 'moving out' they were together, cycling in the middle of the roadway, car track,
whatever you want to call it. There was no right turn anywhere near them .. either behind or
in front.

Ah, occupying the primary riding position, eh? Clearly students of the Franklin school of
cycling :-)

Guy
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Jeremy Parker said:

Quoted message said:

Obviously there are places where cycle lanes are a Good Thing

That's not obvious to me.

It wasn't to me until I found some which were tolerably useful. The type where you get a lane to
filter in and an ASL are helpful, the type which let you filter round to the left rather than wait
for the traffic lights help too - provided you remember to be far enough from the kerb that Mr Cager
sees you when he comes round the corner.

Instances of useful cycle lanes are rare, but they do exist - or at least, there have been a few
which I haven't actually avoided.

Quoted message said:

- in

Quoted message said:

crowded town centres, for example, where the roads are wide enough

Quoted message said:

But being crowded is a definition of the roads **not** being wide enough.

Have a look round Reading some time. No, on second thoughts, don't bother - it's a tedious place.
But the roads are mostly reasonably wide in the centre.

Quoted message said:

Inserting bikes into an intersection in some weird non standard way invariably makes the
intersection more dangerous for cyclists.

ASLs are not dangerous. Bike & bus lanes with separate traffic control aren't either. Bike lanes
which alow you to filter left while the cagers wait aren't necessarily dangerous. Mind you, I'm
being charitable here - the point is that it is theoretically possible to create a useful and safe
bike lane, and it's been done in some places, but that just makes it all the more clear that the
vast majority are poorly planned, poorly executed, and the money would have been better spent on
sweeping the roads more often.

Quoted message said:

The secret to being seen by a motorist is to be where they look. A cyclist is, afer all, a six foot
tall two hundred pound object in the road, right in front of them.

Or in my case a six foot *long* two hundred pound object, lit up like a Christmas tree with an
orange mylar flag and enough reflective material to open a 3M stockist.

The secret to being seen by motorists is simple - but the secret of getting /noticed/ is not to give
then any option /but/ to notice you. Which means riding far enough out from the kerb, wearing bright
colours, all that stuff. Make them look at you to work out how fast you are going, and they are
marginally less likely to assume that you are moving at walking pace.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, it is fatal (almost literally) to place yourself where the motorists don't look.
You may have given yourself an example of this, visiting the continent

Or looking at the poor benighted souls who ride on the "shared use" pavements around here, and
seeing them try to spot the traffic from three directions instead of one as they cross the
side roads.

You may not be aware: I am a daily cyclist. I ride to and from work every day, 15 miles round trip
(unless I decide to get a few extra miles in), all on roads, mostly quite busy ones. I'm a member of
the CTC and a frequent leisure cyclist as well. I ride a recumbent, a tourer and a mountain bike.

Guy
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Just zis Guy, you know? deftly scribbled:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

most of my cycling is outside of Nottingham, and the roads with cycle lanes / paths are generally
wide and free flowing. Which I guess makes a real difference .. 😉

On wide and free-flowing roads I've never felt the need for a cycle lane.

LOL, I hadn't looked at it like that. You're quite right of course .. 😉

Quoted message said:

Some cycle *paths* are good - like the Sustrans route from Bath to Bristol - but most shred use
paths are worthless for functional cyclists as you can't safely do more than about 12-15mph
because of the peds.

There's a few decent ones near us, from Eastwood to Ilkeston by the side of the Awsworth bypass ..
leading off quite often to decent bridleways and other off-road tracks and 'play areas' .. 😉

I admit to not trying shared paths in towns and cities ..

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"Jeremy Parker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Those that are provided are mostly [censored]

This particular one is really rather good.

Implausible as it may seem, I think the designers of most bicycle facilities thought they were
"really rather good".

Snip

But when the maintenance & repair budget -- including cleaning up broken glass, scrubbing graffiti,
cutting back the triffids etc. is only 15 kquid pa for all the cycle ways in a medium sized town the
paths can look great at the start but disappear within 2 years 🙁

James Annan said:

Jeremy Parker said:

No, bike facilities are not bad because of malice, not even bad because of stupidity, merely bad
through ignorance.

I'm sure you are broadly correct, but it takes a pretty generous interpretation of 'ignorance' to
excuse a narrow lane with a big fat tree right in the middle!

Indeed, and we've got one road near here wher the cycle half of teh shared use footpath has all the
streetlights central in it. They've painted a white diamond on teh tarmac around each streetlight
pole, though, so it must be good. Sad that the gap each side of the streetlight is rather less than
the widtyh of most handlebars, however.

This one also does the classic give-way markings at every piddly little sideroad, but for that extra
special touch also has give-way marking at every driveway too. That's right, on this path not only
do you give way to every minor turn-off but also to every moron cager reversing off his driveway
onto teh highway.

That's not ignorance, it's proof that the highjway department is staffed by out-and-out
imbecilic morons.

regards, Ian SMith
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Paul - censored said:

I dunno what a 'Sheffield Stand' is

cycle-works.comsheffield.htmOpen ↗

A hoop of metal anchored at both ends in the ground

Guy
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Gonzalez said:

Cycle paths can be made safe. It just takes a little imagination and a splash of cash.

IMO good cycle lanes are a bit like Dark Matter. There's plenty of theorising about how they might
exist somewhere out there, but they are bloody hard to spot in practice!

James

James Annan said:

IMO good cycle lanes are a bit like Dark Matter. There's plenty of theorising about how they might
exist somewhere out there, but they are bloody hard to spot in practice!

Heh! Like it :-)

Guy
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Ian Smith said:

This one also does the classic give-way markings at every piddly little sideroad, but for that
extra special touch also has give-way marking at every driveway too. That's right, on this path not
only do you give way to every minor turn-off but also to every moron cager reversing off his
driveway onto teh highway. That's not ignorance, it's proof that the highjway department is staffed
by out-and-out imbecilic morons.

It really doesn't get a lot worse than that, does it? I would take some pictures and send them to
the CTC mag - you might get the Star Letter prize or something. At least the "cycle provision" would
then serve a useful function: giving us all a good laugh.

Guy
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On Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:36:19 +0100 someone who may be Jeremy Parker <[email hidden]>
wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

No, bike facilities are not bad because of malice, not even bad because of stupidity, merely bad
through ignorance.

I'm not convinced. There was enough guidance before the road builders started plonking the things
down (in order to have more km of "cycle facilities" and so get more money).

Sustrans' guidance has many faults, but if the bods did things to that minimum the
"facilities" would have been a lot better. Edinburgh has had a very good guide for years, but
it is often ignored.

Any ignorance is self-inflicted, there is plenty of good information for road builders to educate
themselves with.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Andy Todd said:

True, but which one has had over 1000 wheels go over it?

Some people seem to think that grit is this magical substance that the moment it is applied removes
all ice from the road. Unfortunately they are wrong. When you have spun out a few times due to ice
on the road you tend to take the safe option when commuting to wok.

Hi Andy

During the recent cold snap I recall reading than a lot of road problems could have been avoided if
the roads had been salted before the snow actually began to fall. Gritting after the fact is not
particularly beneficial in comparison. Prevention is better than a cure etc.

James

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you know? said:

A hoop of metal anchored at both ends in the ground

No, I prefer "Steel tube 50mm or more in diameter, emerges vertically from the ground to a height of
80 cm or so, bends 90 degrees and travels horizontally a variable length up to about a metre, bends
90 degrees and heads back underground." Far more succinct.

Or ...

||===========================||
|| ||
|| ||
|| ||
|| ||
|| ||

This particular Sheffield Stand is not suitable for fixed pitched bicycles.

James

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you know? said:

An interesting question. I like the /idea/ of cycle lanes, but not the way they are almost
invariably put into practice.

Guy

One of the places I'd like to see lanes provided, and where they seldom are (at least around here),
is on busy dual carrageways, such as the A259, A24 & A27 (locally).

I wonder if cost comes into the equation?

James

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Jeremy Parker said:

Bike lanes can't be used to get past junctions. The very point of junctions, the reason why
they are called "intersections", is that people's paths intersect there. Inserting bikes into
an intersection in some weird non standard way invariably makes the intersection more dangerous
for cyclists. The usual solution to this is to force cyclists to wait, or even dismount, until
such time as all motor vehicles have temporarily left the area, so that it is safe for cyclists
to cross.

Hi Jeremy

Most of us in this NG are drivers and are used to moving "properly" in the traffic and through
intersections. That attempted forcing of cyclists to ride in an unnatural manner is what I find
inconveniencing.

OK, I, myself, no longer drive, but I'm reasonably sure that it's bikes appearing from strange
places that non-cycling cagers find unnerving, assuming the riders are actually seen in the
first place.

James

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Gonzalez said:

I am not convinced that properly constructed cycle paths have to be a dangerous thing. Consider a
3'6" cycle path, painted green, separated from motor vehicles by a twin sided ramp, about 9" wide,
rising to 2" high.

Gonalez

But, of course, masy cycle lanes are not built as you describe. Also, I'm not entirely sure about
that twin sided ramp. It could well be a little slippery in wet and cold weather.

FWIW, many local lanes are far less that 3'6" wide. I usually cycle near to the dotted line, or
outside of it at times.

James

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