Hold your breath, count to ten, one, two, three, four, five, six

Kelly said:

... I also think there are far to many folks on the side line that feel like I do yet won't post
here for fear of what some loud mouth will have to say about his postive post....

Such as being accused of being an anti-American communist who would enjoy killing children? 😉

Tom Sherman - In the flame pit. 🙂

Kelly said:

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

I was in my LBS - a Cannondale dealer - yesterday. There were a pair of Cannondale recumbents, on
sale at 200 GBP off list price. I asked The Man how many he had sold.

TM: None.
Me: Did you *count* them? TM: Twice!

OK, so maybe the last two lines are made up, but the orangey-goldy one has been in there for at
least six months.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Quoted message said:

We are such a very small group and I think it helps us all when new products are brought to
market. In the same breath we can loose a good manufacturer, supplier or dealer by not supporting
their effort at least in sprit if not with dollars.

We all love new products. But new products without much chance of making it because a) they don't
work that well and/or b) they don't address the market correctly only reinforce the idea that 'bents
are nutty contraptions that aren't practical.

There are folks who lurk in this newsgroup who've brought new products to the market, things that
most of us would have been skeptical of, but things that won us over (waves to the guys at
Bacchetta).

Then there are other products that don't seem to address *any* market. Sure, some might find it FUN
to poke holes in others balloons, but I think that 'bent and product makers would be foolish to
discount the (even harsh)remarks made in this newsgroup.

There are centuries of experience with innovative bike design in here, and this group is more
open-minded than just about any bike group you'll find. Criticism ain't all bad.

It just might help some people salvage the good part of their ideas. We're not doing anyone any
favors (manufacturers or consumers) by holding our tongues, or making remarks like "If you think you
can do better, start your own company."

sj

[email hidden] (Kelly) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I just damm well know I should stay on the side line with this but.......

Bigha Airfree Cannondale Trek

Seems like we are so quick to judge and condemn with far to little knowledge of the real
situation. I think there are far too many of you on the sideline with a more postive outlook that
allow the doom slayer all the bandwidth.

We represent such a small market that we will likely have high prices or failed companies that
tried to sell it cheap.

Some out there need to take a check up from the neck up and find something postive to say, or at
least say it with accurate and complete knowledge of what you are talking about for Pete's sake.

The demise of BikeE is an opportunity for the right manufacturer.

Reallllleeee know what happened at bikeE?

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

Trek! Well no matter how big you are you can't overcome a bad design. Trek can do it right, I sure
hope they try again.

Bigha? I'm confident the money behind this project could have went elsewhere and made the folks
some real bucks but they choose to stay in recumbents and risk it all again. I'm glad we have a
new recumbent on the market.

Airfree??? I'm a little concerned for Hugh and his customers. I betya Hugh is in the heat of
things and is doing everything possible to bring things to a good conclusion.

We are such a very small group and I think it helps us all when new products are brought to
market. In the same breath we can loose a good manufacturer, supplier or dealer by not supporting
their effort at least in sprit if not with dollars.

I also think there are far to many folks on the side line that feel like I do yet won't post here
for fear of what some loud mouth will have to say about his postive post. Heads up!

Kelly

Well you stupid son of a ............

oh, you're right 🙂

I've said this before. To be successful you need to have the right product, at the right time and at
the right price.

Despite what some NG pundunts say, another CLWB 16" FWB entry with a big price tag in a down
economy is a [censored] poor marketing concept and is doomed.

Is there a place for this design? Yes, in the under 1K area
suspended, <$600 unsuspended. All you have to do is ask a former bikeE
dealer like me. The CT out sold the AT 30 to one and the RX/FX 50 to 1.

Jude St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645
"Kelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just damm well know I should stay on the side line with this but.......

Bigha Airfree Cannondale Trek

Seems like we are so quick to judge and condemn with far to little knowledge of the real
situation. I think there are far too many of you on the sideline with a more postive outlook that
allow the doom slayer all the bandwidth.

We represent such a small market that we will likely have high prices or failed companies that
tried to sell it cheap.

Some out there need to take a check up from the neck up and find something postive to say, or at
least say it with accurate and complete knowledge of what you are talking about for Pete's sake.

The demise of BikeE is an opportunity for the right manufacturer.

Reallllleeee know what happened at bikeE?

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

Trek! Well no matter how big you are you can't overcome a bad design. Trek can do it right, I sure
hope they try again.

Bigha? I'm confident the money behind this project could have went elsewhere and made the folks
some real bucks but they choose to stay in recumbents and risk it all again. I'm glad we have a
new recumbent on the market.

Airfree??? I'm a little concerned for Hugh and his customers. I betya Hugh is in the heat of
things and is doing everything possible to bring things to a good conclusion.

We are such a very small group and I think it helps us all when new products are brought to
market. In the same breath we can loose a good manufacturer, supplier or dealer by not supporting
their effort at least in sprit if not with dollars.

I also think there are far to many folks on the side line that feel like I do yet won't post here
for fear of what some loud mouth will have to say about his postive post. Heads up!

Kelly

Quoted message said:

Is there a place for this design? Yes, in the under 1K area suspended, <$600 unsuspended.
All you have to do is ask a former bikeE dealer like me. The CT out sold the AT 30 to one
and the RX/FX 50 to

Didn't seem to work out too well for them, selling lots of <$600 bents!

Jackel, The successful bent manufacturers/importers are mostly small with low overhead and minimal
employees. BikeE was the largest bent seller for many a year. IMO they made some mistakes in the
growth area that was a major contributor to their demise. Their operating costs got away from them
and the market didn't grow as rapidly in the late 90's as it did in the mid 90's. The void is being
filled by Cycle Genius which is owned and operated by two guys that own a LBS in the Houston Texas
area. Their entry level recumbent is at the <$600 price point. J&B Importers with their EasyRacer
designed line is doing fine and will continue to do well with their recumbents starting at <$600.
They are a big operation and had a nationwide P&A and bicycle distribution system in place prior to
their entry into the recumbent fray.

Jude....///Bacchetta AERO/bikeE AT St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle
and Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645 "Jackal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there a place for this design? Yes, in the under 1K area suspended, <$600 unsuspended.
All you have to do is ask a former bikeE dealer like me. The CT out sold the AT 30 to one
and the RX/FX 50 to

Didn't seem to work out too well for them, selling lots of <$600 bents!

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman - In the flame pit. 🙂

Maybe there should be a permanent a.r.b.r. thread under the subject of "OT- Tom Sherman's Flame Pit
- Enter at your own risk" Maybe even have an enter button whereby clicking it one would forever
surrender their right to complain about the subject matter or to claim they were tricked in to
reading the posts against their will, etc. Martin from the NGB would have to start the thread so
everyone here could deny they did it and blame it on him. :-)

Tom will that be the 5 minute arguement or the 10 minute arguement? It is a pretty good idea, like
when UR bored U can go into the flame pit and do an arguement session/verbal abuse.
----------------------------------------
"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman - In the flame pit. 🙂

Maybe there should be a permanent a.r.b.r. thread under the subject of

"OT-

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman's Flame Pit - Enter at your own risk" Maybe even have an

enter

Quoted message said:

button whereby clicking it one would forever surrender their right to complain about the subject
matter or to claim they were tricked in to reading the posts against their will, etc. Martin from
the NGB would have

to

Quoted message said:

start the thread so everyone here could deny they did it and blame it on him. :-)

Kelly wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

[...]

Seth Jayson wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

There are centuries of experience with innovative bike design in here, and this group is more
open-minded than just about any bike group you'll find. Criticism ain't all bad.

[...]

Many in this group value speed performance over everything else when judging new bikes. Had the
bigha been a Ti low racer, I don't think it would have gotten much flack here even at the price.
Even though low racers aren't that practical and don't meet many peoples' needs.

When the C'dale came out, people compared it to cheaper bikes that did not have suspension, even
though suspension was one of its best assets.

For my local riding, I need suspension, a higher riding position, and nimble handling. All-out
performance is secondary. For these reasons, I didn't reject the C'dale out of hand, and I wouldn't
_automatically_ reject the bigha, although it would be a long shot.

I don't know if this bike will be successful or not, but with all due respect, I wouldn't put too
much on the group's reaction as a predictor of success or failure.

John Riley

John Riley <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3E536435.49D22FE3 @rogers.com:

Quoted message said:

Kelly wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

[...]

Seth Jayson wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

There are centuries of experience with innovative bike design in here, and this group is more
open-minded than just about any bike group you'll find. Criticism ain't all bad.

I find this group far from open minded, though I don't read other bike groups to compare.

John Riley said:

Had the bigha been a Ti low racer, I don't think it would have gotten much flack here even at the
price. Even though low racers aren't that practical and don't meet many peoples' needs.

Had it been a Ti low racer, people might have perceived it as being something out of the ordinary,
and therefore worth forking out for. But as it is, it's perceived as a full-suspension MWB which
does very little more than the Cannondale or Spirit but costs a shedload more money.

Quoted message said:

When the C'dale came out, people compared it to cheaper bikes that did not have suspension, even
though suspension was one of its best assets.

Personally I compared it to the full-sus BikeE and HP Velotechnik Spirit. Over here it was seven
hundred quid more than the former and eight hundred and fifty more than the latter.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Quoted message said:

I find this group far from open minded, though I don't read other bike groups to compare.

Try a wedgie group out and see what they think of something that 'bent people think is a good
design, say, a Rans Rocket, a Tour Easy. How 'bout mountain bike components on a road bike? I mean,
at least the folks here are willing to try different things... I don't think there's a single one of
us in here, even those who've trashed the Bigha, who wouldn't like a test ride.

Sj

John Riley <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Kelly wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

And you trashed Cannondale for such a high priced recumbent.

[...]

Seth Jayson wrote: [...]

Quoted message said:

There are centuries of experience with innovative bike design in here, and this group is more
open-minded than just about any bike group you'll find. Criticism ain't all bad.

[...]

Many in this group value speed performance over everything else when judging new bikes. <snip>

Wonder if that's why some people do not post about their 'slow' bikes or 'semi-recumbents"?

"R.White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...> Wonder if that's why some people do not
post about their 'slow' bikes

Quoted message said:

or 'semi-recumbents"?

Ah, but they do and quite often. Actually this NG has speedsters, wanna be speedsters, hardy
tourers, rercreational riders, daily commuters, sometime commuters, carfree folks,
homebuilders and combinations of many of the above. What of it? So some of us bash Cannondale
or BigHa. My opinion...is simply my opinion. I never questioned the quality of these bents, I
questioned the marketability of them as it relates to their position in the recumbent fray.
There are, as was pointed out in other post on the subject proven products at lower prices. I
have a bikeE with fenders, fairing, rear rack, underseat rack, lotsa lights and so on. I'm
also working on a lockable rigid pannier for it. I also ride Bacchetta Ti AERO with HED
disk/HED3 wheelset. Two different bikes for two distinctly different purposes. I found that a
few trips to various recumbennt rallys and HPV events showed me just how "bentacceptable"
most recumbenteers are regardless of their particular hoice of steed.

Jude....///Bacchetta AERO///bikeE AT St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle
and Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645

Jude T. McGloin said:

"R.White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...> Wonder if that's why some people do not
post about their 'slow' bikes

Quoted message said:

or 'semi-recumbents"?

Ah, but they do and quite often. Actually this NG has speedsters, wanna be speedsters,
hardy tourers, rercreational riders, daily commuters, sometime commuters, carfree folks,
homebuilders and combinations of many of the above. What of it? So some of us bash
Cannondale or BigHa. My opinion...is simply my opinion. I never questioned the quality of
these bents, I questioned the marketability of them as it relates to their position in the
recumbent fray. There are, as was pointed out in other post on the subject proven products
at lower prices.

True, but a bike is more than just a list of specs. The Spirit is an OK bike, and it is not my
intention to get into a spec war, but to me it is conceivable that someone might feel that the
suspension on the C'dale worked better, that they like the mid-drive, that it handled better, or
whatever, enough to get the C'dale over the Spirit.

A Strada or a Gold Rush is a "proven product at a lower price", but that doesn't stop people from
getting Ti versions for considerably more money for not a huge performance increase. I think it is
pretty tricky figuring what someone will pay a premium for.

I don't know Acres, but I've been around a few people who have done recumbent start-ups. By the time
the bike hits the market, these folks have put their soul into it, and I am not sure we should be
quite so harsh. Detail feedback is probably useful, but seems to me that when they come here, they
are mostly just letting us know about their product and aren't necessarily asking for a lot of
opinions about whether it is a good idea or not in general. Usually by the time they come here, they
are committed, for better or worse, to the main concept of the bike.

Speaking of which, for better or worse, here is another example.

maxarya.commaxarya.comOpen ↗

I have no financial or professional interest, but Max lives in Toronto, and I have had several
conversations with him. This web site link has been posted before, but at some point he has updated
it. The grey bike with the disk brakes and the head shock type suspension is the latest prototype.
The others are earlier. Max's first shipment wasn't going to make it in time, so he has had a few
bikes air shipped from Taiwan so production bikes will be at the Toronto consumer show, which
starts, Feb. 28, IRC.

Quoted message said:

I have a bikeE with fenders, fairing, rear rack, underseat rack, lotsa lights and so on.
I'm also working on a lockable rigid pannier for it. I also ride Bacchetta Ti AERO with HED
disk/HED3 wheelset. Two different bikes for two distinctly different purposes.

[...]

Yeah, but it seems like you mostly talk about the AERO. ;-)

John Riley

Jackal said:

... I find this group far from open minded, though I don't read other bike groups to compare.

Rec.bicycles.racing is generally, polite, civil, and VERY OPEN MINDED. 😉

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon

John Riley said:

... A Strada or a Gold Rush is a "proven product at a lower price",...

No offence to Bacchetta or Strada owners, but it seems a bit premature to refer to a bike as new as
the Strada as a "proven product", especially in light of some of the problems noted with the early
production models. I suspect that the current production Bacchetta models will reach "proven
product" status in the not too distant future, however.

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

In 1981or so GM made a Pontiac T-1000. It was an upscaled Chevette. The quality was improved, it was
heavier, better insulated, better interior, better suspension, better engine etc. and of course a
higher price tag. However, it still looked like a Chevette. They also took other models and tried to
make them into Caddys. Cimmeron? It was also doomed to failure. Its a matter of perception. I just
don't believe that the CLWB 16" format is that upscaleable.

Jude....///Bacchetta AERO///bikeE AT St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle
and Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645 "John Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jude T. McGloin said:

"R.White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...> Wonder if

that's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

why some people do not post about their 'slow' bikes

Quoted message said:

or 'semi-recumbents"?

Ah, but they do and quite often. Actually this NG has speedsters, wanna be speedsters,
hardy tourers, rercreational riders, daily

commuters,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sometime commuters, carfree folks, homebuilders and combinations of many

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the above. What of it? So some of us bash Cannondale or BigHa. My

opinion...is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

simply my opinion. I never questioned the quality of these bents, I questioned the marketability
of them as it relates to their position in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recumbent fray. There are, as was pointed out in other post on the

subject

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

proven products at lower prices.

True, but a bike is more than just a list of specs. The Spirit is an OK bike, and it is not my
intention to get into a spec war, but to me it is conceivable that someone might feel that the
suspension on the C'dale worked better, that they like the mid-drive, that it handled better, or
whatever, enough to get the C'dale over the Spirit.

A Strada or a Gold Rush is a "proven product at a lower price", but that doesn't stop people from
getting Ti versions for considerably more money for not a huge performance increase. I think it is
pretty tricky figuring what someone will pay a premium for.

I don't know Acres, but I've been around a few people who have done recumbent start-ups. By the
time the bike hits the market, these folks have put their soul into it, and I am not sure we
should be quite so harsh. Detail feedback is probably useful, but seems to me that when they come
here, they are mostly just letting us know about their product and aren't necessarily asking for a
lot of opinions about whether it is a good idea or not in general. Usually by the time they come
here, they are committed, for better or worse, to the main concept of the bike.

Speaking of which, for better or worse, here is another example.

maxarya.commaxarya.comOpen ↗

I have no financial or professional interest, but Max lives in Toronto, and I have had several
conversations with him. This web site link has been posted before, but at some point he has
updated it. The grey bike with the disk brakes and the head shock type suspension is the latest
prototype. The others are earlier. Max's first shipment wasn't going to make it in time, so he has
had a few bikes air shipped from Taiwan so production bikes will be at the Toronto consumer show,
which starts, Feb. 28, IRC.

Quoted message said:

I have a bikeE with fenders, fairing, rear rack, underseat rack, lotsa lights and so on.
I'm also working on a lockable rigid pannier for

it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also ride Bacchetta Ti AERO with HED disk/HED3 wheelset. Two

different

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bikes for two distinctly different purposes.

[...]

Yeah, but it seems like you mostly talk about the AERO. ;-)

John Riley