When Should I Give Up?

I think something is clearly wrong. Dutch bikes are known to be heavy, but not to be unstable or
difficullt to ride. It sounds like Behemouth is either defective, much too big, or very badly set
up. In neither case will familiarity improve things.

The Germans make some very good commuting/trekking bikes, also equipped with the Nexus or Rohloff. I
have a Kettler; the more expensive Utopia also comes to mind. Either one offers the same durability
and practicality of Dutch bikes but with much less weight. The Utopia even has a chaincase.

Here in the States, local bike shops are often totally clueless when it comes to bikes as
transportation. They typically can't fathom why anyone would find fenders and chainguards desirable.
However, there are some very good shops, and I'm sure there are good ones in France, too.

I'd look for a shop that actually understands Dutch bikes and have them but Behemouth to rights.
Failing that, they should be able to find you one that fits you.

Sidewall dynamos range from cheap and nasty to pretty good. They require proper tires with a special
sidewall track to work. Schwalbe Marathon and Vredestein make the best dynamo tires, by far. I'm
converting to a front dynohub mostly for better results in snow and mud, but the dynamo that came
with my bike is OK if you don't have those conditions.

As I see it, you have two bikes, neither one of which fits your needs. Keeping one as a backup in
case of a flat makes sense to me.

Paul

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" wrote ...

<snip comparison between Behemoth and Myrtille>

Quoted message said:

I was at the shop Bicloune about 10 days ago. This is a famous and well-reputed shop, but for me
it is in a very inaccessible neighborhood. They had an assortment of new and used bikes, one of
which caught my interest. It was an unlabelled, new, Dutch-style city bike with 26" wheels, like
Myrtille. It had an internal hub shifter but with only 5 gears, V-brakes and a rim dynamo. It cost
around 500?. When I asked about its provenance, the man told me it had been made on the premises.
I did not try the bike because I did not have my helmet with me. However, if he made that bike,
I'm thinking it might be possible for him to make one from my own specs - 26" wheels, 8-speed
Nexus, roller brakes, chain, skirt and mudguards, and no dynamos (hate 'em). Perhaps I could trade
in Behemoth for part of the price. What holds me back from acting is that, even if I tested the
bike he has there and found it OK, I am not sure I can learn what I need to know from just a test
ride. When I rode Behemoth out of her shop in the 16th Arrondissement, I had no idea how she would
pan out two months later, when everything had been adjusted and optimized. Nor could I tell,
before the investment in the additions and modifications had already been made, that she would be
so much heavier than in her raw state. I'm just not experienced enough to tell.

Thanks for listening.

EFR Ile de France

Bring you r helmet and test ride the bike at Bicloune. If you like it, consider having the people at
Bicloune build you a bike using as many components from Behemoth as they are willing to use. Then
keep Myrtille for a spare bike.
--
mark

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

snipped very interesting bicycle review

It sounds to me like you have pretty much answered your own questions. I wouldn't say you are giving
up but rather moving on and my guess is you'll keep Myrtille as a backup and try to find something
to replace Behemoth with.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Elisa Francesca Roselli <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

After only two months in my employment, Behemoth, my luxurious new Dutch bike, is off sick with a
flat rear tire. Thus my recently upgraded French supermarket bike, Myrtille, returns to active
service.

Although I try to be persistent and keep up a brave face, it is becoming harder and harder to deny
the evidence. Despite her humble origins, Myrtille is far more comfortable and easier to ride than
Behemoth. At least 6 lb lighter, she is also perceptibly faster. She covers the 1.5 km between my
work and home in 16 minutes with traffic lights, wheras Behemoth rarely makes it in less than 18
minutes.

This is not surprising under the circumstances. But the other things you describe suggest that
something is very, very wrong.

Quoted message said:

This greater comfort makes for greater safety. So long as I am in the right gear, I have no
trouble starting Myrtille. With Behemoth, starting is a major issue. She fails me often.

Describe "fail". If Behemoth were geared too high, such that you had to push off with a mighty
"Oomph!!", I would expect some major wobbling, wheel flop, etc. But Behemoth has plenty low gears,
so that seems unlikely (are you using them?).

Quoted message said:

With Myrtille, I can more or less cleave to a cycling lane at the right side of the road.
Behemoth's steering is so erratic that she must take the middle of the lane, to the annoyance of
traffic behind me. Her sway can extend to two meters in either direction, especially the
vertiginous leftward flop at startup.

Again, this is very abnormal (and dangerous!!). Given your history with the kick scooter, I'd
suggest that you have someone else try to ride the bike -- perhaps someone from the bike shop. What
you describe may be a function of your own balance issues, but it could be the case that the frame
or fork was built crooked or was bent on the way from factory to you. Let's at least rule that out.

Quoted message said:

Behemoth routinely fails even simple corner turning. If it weren't for her excellent brakes, I
would already have crashed into a wall or two.

Again, what do you mean by "fail".

Quoted message said:

Now that Myrtille has an 8-speed derailleur rather than the 5-speed she was born with, shifting is
even more confusing than it used to be. I realize I arrived at work this morning in 5th when I was
supposed to be in 2nd.

If you were able to pedal her at a comfortable cadence, so what? Cars need to shift through the
gears in order, but bikes do not. Don't worry about this.

Quoted message said:

The back gate better be open this evening or I won't be able to start up the hill from the front.

That's different. The ability to change gears while at a standstill is a nice feature of hub gears.

Quoted message said:

As I was riding Myrtille for rather longer than Behemoth, I have held up the hope that I would get
used to Behemoth eventually. I have measured the frame sizes . Myrtille is a tiny 46 cm, Behemoth
is a medium 50 cm. On paper at least, Myrtille is too small for me and Behemoth is correct, but
still on the small side. However, I realize I really am not happy with Behemoth's 700mm wheels.
Whereas, with Myrtille, I can have the seat at the correct distance from the pedals and still put
a foot on the ground, this is not possible with Behemoth.

Compare the two riding positions. Does Behemoth cause your knee to come up higher than Myrtille?
Does Behemoth stretch you out more towards the front than Myrtille? To confirm, measure the cranks
on both bikes. Also measure the distance from the bottom of the frame (under the pedals) to the
ground. Finally, meaure the distance from the center of the saddle to the handgrips (with the
handlebars centered) on each bike. Given that you are setting your saddle height by reference to the
ground, rather than the pedals, an increase in either of the first two measurements would imply that
your knees are coming up higher than they used to. The third is self-explanatory. A riding position
that does both at the same time can be expected to be more wobbly.

Quoted message said:

You have pointed out in this forum that it is not the practise for real cyclists to start seated,
or to remain seated at a standstill, but this does remain the preference for many ordinary muggles
who do not cycle much or who do not feel safe if they cannot touch ground. Moreover, I am
absolutely no nearer to a standing start than I was a year ago. It is one of those things that I
have observed and studied intensely, but cannot even begin to understand kinetically. I may get the
hang of it someday, but if we recall that it took me two and a half years of daily practise to
learn how to ride a kick-scooter, a skill which most people consider innate, there is no guarantee
that this will happen anytime soon.

I realize that this is unusually hard for you, but I'd encourage you to keep at it. If you can
achieve it, you will ride (1) faster, (2) with less effort, (3) for longer distances and (4)
(probably) more safely.

Quoted message said:

So what do you think? How much longer should I go on indulging Behemoth? If I'm not comfortable
after two months, will I ever be?

Never say die! In any case, try to fix before abandoning.

Quoted message said:

I was at the shop Bicloune about 10 days ago. This is a famous and well-reputed shop, but for me
it is in a very inaccessible neighborhood. They had an assortment of new and used bikes, one of
which caught my interest. It was an unlabelled, new, Dutch-style city bike with 26" wheels, like
Myrtille.

Probably a distraction. I very seriously doubt that wheel size is at the heart of this, except to
the (psychological) extent that smaller wheels may make you feel that you are closer to the ground
and therefore safer. But you aren't closer to the ground --the seat is at that same height that
allows you to touch down while seated.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps I could trade in Behemoth for part of the price. What holds me back from acting is that,
even if I tested the bike he has there and found it OK, I am not sure I can learn what I need to
know from just a test ride. When I rode Behemoth out of her shop in the 16th Arrondissement, I had
no idea how she would pan out two months later, when everything had been adjusted and optimized.
Nor could I tell, before the investment in the additions and modifications had already been made,
that she would be so much heavier than in her raw state.

What was "optimized"? Forgive me, the word hardly seems appropriate. What were the additions and
modifications? Perhaps a clue lies therein.

Good luck, and keep us posted!!

Peter Storey

Paul Hamilton said:

I think something is clearly wrong. Dutch bikes are known to be heavy, but not to be unstable or
difficullt to ride. It sounds like Behemouth is either defective, much too big, or very badly set
up. In neither case will familiarity improve things.

I have had her tested by a number of other riders. Two, so far, have found her hard to steer, the
others have said there was no problem. There seems to be a ruling creed among cycling elitists of
the John Forrester ilk that upmarket bikes are "supposed" to be that way. They call it "Sensitive
Steering". I call it "Oversteering All the Time".

Quoted message said:

The Germans make some very good commuting/trekking bikes, also equipped with the Nexus or Rohloff.

This whole problem originated in the fact that such bikes _cannot_ be found here. The only way I can
obtain one of these German bikes, or have a better choice of Dutch bikes, is to travel to Germany or
Holland and buy one on location. This option is too expensive for me at the moment. Moreover,
judging from catalogue, very few bikes in this category have 26" wheels, which I think may be one of
my requirements.

Quoted message said:

I'd look for a shop that actually understands Dutch bikes and have them but Behemouth to rights.
Failing that, they should be able to find you one that fits you.

There is _one_specialist in Paris who deals with this kind of bike - Behemoth's own dealer. Now that
I have Myrtille back, perhaps I will take Behemoth back there to have her looked at. As this
requires quite an extensive ride through busy Paris streets, I will need a day off work, good
weather, and a functioning tire on Behemoth, currently being repaired at the nearest LBS..

Quoted message said:

As I see it, you have two bikes, neither one of which fits your needs. Keeping one as a backup in
case of a flat makes sense to me.

Yes, when I got the bill for upgrading Myrtille I felt a little faint, but now I see that it was well-
spent money.

EFR

Paul Hamilton said:

The Germans make some very good commuting/trekking bikes, also equipped with the Nexus or Rohloff.
I have a Kettler; the more expensive Utopia also comes to mind. Either one offers the same
durability and practicality of Dutch bikes but with much less weight. The Utopia even has a
chaincase.

I've had a look on the Utopia web-site at utopia-fahrrad.deutopia-fahrrad.deOpen ↗. Some interesting items
there indeed. One thing I don't understand though. I gather the idea is to configure your own bike,
with the shifter, brakes, frame-size etc. that you want. Then they build it to your specs and ship
it to you.

But then I'm told that anyone who doesn't try before they buy is a cretin. How on earth can you try
a bike that isn't even built yet?

EFR Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote lots about her new bike and her problems.

Peter Storey gave a response, which I generally agreed with. Here are a few comments.

Quoted message said:

With Behemoth, starting is a major issue. She fails me often. Once, she failed me at a busy
intersection. It was impossible to get back into the stream of traffic after the light and I had
to wheel her home.

This sounds _very_ unusual. Like Peter, I'm curious about exactly how Behemoth "fails you often."
What happens when you try to begin pedaling?

Quoted message said:

Behemoth's steering is so erratic that she must take the middle of the lane, to the annoyance of
traffic behind me. Her sway can extend to two meters in either direction, especially the
vertiginous leftward flop at startup.

This is also _extremely_ unusual. A sway of two meters in either direction should be impossible on a
functional bicycle. (For comparison, there was a somewhat famous article published in a journal of
physics many years ago, detailing a physicists efforts to build a bicycle that couldn't be balanced.
It was _extremely_ difficult to do so!)

This leads me to wonder if there is something very seriously wrong with the headset (i.e. steering
mechanism) on the bike. Or perhaps the fork or frame are bent?

Quoted message said:

Behemoth routinely fails even simple corner turning. If it weren't for her excellent brakes, I
would already have crashed into a wall or two.

Again, this is astounding. It should not be.

In general, utility bikes are designed to be very stable. The ones I've tried could be ridden no-
hands much more easily than my "sportier" bikes.

Quoted message said:

Behemoth is not without her advantages. The Nexus gear shifter is a treasure. I never have to
worry about what gear I'm in, and there is no need to go extra route just to get into the right
gear. Now that Myrtille has an 8-speed derailleur rather than the 5-speed she was born with,
shifting is even more confusing than it used to be. I realize I arrived at work this morning in
5th when I was supposed to be in 2nd. The back gate better be open this evening or I won't be able
to start up the hill from the front.

While hub gears certainly have advantages (and may be better for you) a derailleur gear set should
be very easy to use, as well. But it's true that a derailleur is difficult to shift while stopped.
Most people learn to remember to shift derailleurs to a good "starting" gear before coming to a
stop; and when they forget, they find a way to fuss it into gear, perhaps moving the shifter while
holding the back of the bike off the ground and kicking the pedals around. It's clumsy, but not
impossible. It may be worth it to have someone show you how.

Quoted message said:

Behemoth's cleanliness is next to godliness. Her chain is fully covered, her back wheel has a
skirt guard as well as a mud guard. Myrtille tends to put mucky stains on the back of my skirts.
Often I don't notice these until they have transferred themselves to the pale, expensive
upholstery of my living room. Then there is Myrtille's hem-ripping tendency, which obliges me to
hoik up my skirts in an inelegant and not always decent manner. I must also praise the fact that
Behemoth is almost completely maintenance-free (unless this tire-blasting trick is going to become
a regular feature). Myrtille needs tending every fortnight or so.

Hmmm. I wonder what "tending" is needed? But more on cleanliness, etc. later.

Quoted message said:

I realize I really am not happy with Behemoth's 700mm wheels. Whereas, with Myrtille, I can have
the seat at the correct distance from the pedals and still put a foot on the ground, this is not
possible with Behemoth.

Wheel size should not affect this. Here's why: First, the pedals must clear the ground by a
reasonable amount, or they will scrape on the slightest turn. That determines the height of the
cranks. Second, the seat must be a certain distance above the pedals, or your knees will be too bent
for comfort and long-term health. The sum of those two dimensions determines the height of the seat
above the ground. (My fonding bike, with approx. 16" wheels, has its seat at the same height as my
other bikes.)

There is an uncommon design of bike that puts the seat far behind the pedals, hoping to give good
leg extension while allowing one to reach the ground easily. But I've never seen one of these in
real life.

So I suspect the differences between the bikes are more related to adjustment than to wheel size.

Quoted message said:

You have pointed out in this forum that it is not the practise for real cyclists to start seated,
or to remain seated at a standstill, but this does remain the preference for many ordinary muggles
who do not cycle much or who do not feel safe if they cannot touch ground. Moreover, I am
absolutely no nearer to a standing start than I was a year ago. It is one of those things that I
have observed and studied intensely, but cannot even begin to understand kinetically. I may get
the hang of it someday, but if we recall that it took me two and a half years of daily practise to
learn how to ride a kick-scooter, a skill which most people consider innate, there is no guarantee
that this will happen anytime soon.

This, more than anything else, hints that the problem may not be so much in the bike. No matter. If
the bike doesn't work for you, you need to find one that does!

I think I'd consider the following: I'd have some knowledgeable person inspect the Behemoth very
thoroughly, to be sure nothing is seriously wrong. I'd also have them look at your fit on the bike,
and see if any adjustements are necessary and possible.

If they determine the bike is fine, then perhaps it's just not the bike for you. I'd consider
upgrading your favorite bike. By that, I mean: if your skirts are getting dirt stripes, your fenders
sound inadequate (or missing). Have bigger ones intalled. Would you like a skirt guard? Have a bike
shop install one. Do you have a strong preference for a hub gear? You can have that installed, too.

The fenders are cheap. The skirt guard may require some clever work by an interested mechanic, but
it's certainly possible. (I'd do it for you, if you were in my neighborhood.) The hub gear is
relatively expensive, and it may pay to have someone show you tips on derailleurs to be sure you
really need to change. OTOH, hub gears can add greatly to cleanliness.

Bikes are very versatile, and often (not always) one can be "accessorized" to make it much more to
your liking. If this works, it can be a much less expensive way to get what you want.

Meanwhile, if you describe the failings of Behemoth in more detail (expecially the stability
problems) we may be able to take a guess at what's happening.

But I wonder - have you discussed this with local cyclists? Actually seeing the bike is a terrific
advantage, you know!

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

"Paul Hamilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here in the States, local bike shops are often totally clueless when it comes to bikes as
transportation. They typically can't fathom why anyone would find fenders and chainguards
desirable. However, there are some very good shops, and I'm sure there are good ones in
France, too.

I saw a Breezer in my local shop (Amlings, Niles, Illinois). breezerbikes.combreezerbikes.comOpen ↗ It looked
elegantly utilitarian: generator lights, rack, fenders, chainguard, Nexus-type gears (don't know if
they were that brand). So, there are a few such bikes out there, even in the US.

Re the original poster's question: I can see a sale of Behemoth in the offing. There's no point to a
bike you don't like to ride, and a couple of months should be sufficient time. It might just need
some refitting adjustments, though.

I was slightly puzzled by the thought that <<Whereas, with Myrtille, I can have the seat at the
correct distance from the pedals and still put a foot on the ground, this is not possible with
Behemoth. >>

Elisa, it sounds like you are keeping one foot on the ground when stopped, which is pretty standard
among those who haven't mastered track stands, which is about 95% of us. Of course, this is
accomplished by leaning the bike slightly over to one side.

I hope this meager contribution is helpful, not annoying. I remember
some of these issues from previous threads. Of course, Elisa can
respond for herself, but in the interest of having some answers
waiting when she reads these messages:

frkrygow' 'frkrygow'@omitcc.ysu.edu said:

Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote lots about her new bike and her problems.

Behemoth: bikkelbikes.comneerhem7.htmOpen ↗

Her first thread about her teething troubles: groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
software.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With Behemoth, starting
is a major issue. She fails me often. Once, she failed me at a busy intersection. It was
impossible to get back into the stream of traffic after the light and I had to wheel her home.

This sounds _very_ unusual. Like Peter, I'm curious about exactly how Behemoth "fails you often."
What happens when you try to begin pedaling?

Here, she describes how she mounts: groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
software.com

Quoted message said:

for you. I'd consider upgrading your favorite bike. By that, I mean: if your skirts are getting
dirt stripes, your fenders sound inadequate (or missing). Have bigger ones intalled. Would you like
a skirt guard? Have a bike shop install one. Do you have a strong preference for a hub gear? You
can have that installed, too.

The fenders are cheap. The skirt guard may require some clever work by an interested mechanic, but
it's certainly possible. (I'd do it for you, if you were in my neighborhood.)

Elisa wrote: :Everything about this :bike was non-standard, so a standard chain-guard could not
be :retrofitted. <snip> :This obliged me to drop into my LBS every few weeks or so; but :since
they hadn't sold me Myrtille, and since they considered her trash, :I had to face their irony
all the time.

She is unable to find people willing to do the things you or I would do for a bike. She can't even
find reasonably nice people.

Quoted message said:

The hub gear is relatively expensive, and it may pay to have someone show you tips on derailleurs
to be sure you really need to change. OTOH, hub gears can add greatly to cleanliness.

Expense is easy enough to overcome -- the hub gear could be taken from Behemoth.

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, if you describe the failings of Behemoth in more detail (expecially the stability
problems) we may be able to take a guess at what's happening.

She has in the past; hopefully, enough detail can be found in those messages.

Quoted message said:

But I wonder - have you discussed this with local cyclists? Actually seeing the bike is a terrific
advantage, you know!

See the bike: bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7H popup.jpgOpen ↗

Quite an attractive bike, actually.

Of course, the resolution is a little bit short of 3d solid holography, so we can't really examine
it well... 😉

I wonder if bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7D popup.jpgOpen ↗
would have been a better choice? Maybe easier to mount.
--
Rick Onanian

Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:36:59 -0500, <[email hidden]>,

frkrygow' 'frkrygow'@omitcc.ysu.edu said:

Quoted message said:

Behemoth's steering is so erratic that she must take the middle of the lane, to the annoyance of
traffic behind me. Her sway can extend to two meters in either direction, especially the
vertiginous leftward flop at startup.

This is also _extremely_ unusual. A sway of two meters in either direction should be impossible on
a functional bicycle.

With varying road cambers and a loaded basket, the steering becomes complicated and heavy. A bike
with a long wheelbase, larger wheels and relaxed angles takes longer to respond to steering inputs
so one might have a tendency for over correcting.
--
zk

In article <[email hidden]>,
Elisa Francesca Roselli

Quoted message said:

Paul Hamilton said:

The Germans make some very good commuting/trekking bikes, also equipped with the Nexus or
Rohloff. I have a Kettler; the more expensive Utopia also comes to mind. Either one offers the
same durability and practicality of Dutch bikes but with much less weight. The Utopia even has a
chaincase.

I've had a look on the Utopia web-site at utopia-fahrrad.deutopia-fahrrad.deOpen ↗. Some interesting items
there indeed. One thing I don't understand though. I gather the idea is to configure your own
bike, with the shifter, brakes, frame-size etc. that you want. Then they build it to your specs
and ship it to you.

But then I'm told that anyone who doesn't try before they buy is a cretin. How on earth can you
try a bike that isn't even built yet?

Ah, the eternal dilemma. It comes down to this: newer riders, or cyclists on their first bike or two
need to try bikes to get an idea of what they want. Experienced cyclists have a pretty good idea of
how they best fit a bicycle, and can often be set up by a competent shop so that their new bike fits
exactly like their old bike.

But yes, it's a messed-up system, especially for new cyclists.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Zoot Katz said:

With varying road cambers and a loaded basket, the steering becomes complicated and heavy. A bike
with a long wheelbase, larger wheels and relaxed angles takes longer to respond to steering inputs
so one might have a tendency for over correcting.

That's a good point. Also, it sounds like there may be an issue with the 700c wheels. My experience
with my 700c hybrid vs my 26 inch wheel bikes - one "mountain" rigid frame, and a Giant Sedona with
front suspension, is that the 26 inch wheel bikes feel more stable. My guess is, Eliza would feel
safer and ride better on a "mixte" style frame with 26 inch wheels combined with the practical
external features of her "Behemoth" . ie: the above 26" bike with skirt guard, enclosed chain,
upright riding position, rack, fenders, lights, and 'city' tires around 11/2" size. I'm thinking the
key thing here is 26 inch wheels for a feeling of greater stability. Also, I'm not convinced her
Behemoth is the right size. I bet she'd be happier on a smaller frame. Here's another thought:
Spring is coming, that means the bike sales market is improving soon. Perhaps she can trade/sell her
Behemoth for top dollar/euro/franc/whatever (it has been extremely well looked after from what I can
gather) and then get something more suitable. Eliza - I agree with your having a back up bike for
when the "good " one is out of service. I also agree with doing most of your riding on the one you
like the best. 🙂 That works for me. Cheers, Bernie riding on the wonderful west coast of British
Columbia, Canada

Peter Storey said:

Describe "fail". If Behemoth were geared too high, such that you had to push off with a mighty
"Oomph!!", I would expect some major wobbling, wheel flop, etc. But Behemoth has plenty low gears,
so that seems unlikely (are you using them?).

If not of wheel size, this must be a function of the height of the pedal axel (crank?) which is at
least two inches higher off the ground on Behemoth than on Myrtille.

It goes like this. I crank my Nexus to an appropriate gear for the terrain, one or two for a slight
uphill, three or four for flat or downhill. I clinch the brakes so that she doesn't squiggle, get a
foot over her, tip her to the left, back onto the seat, and straighten her. At this point I am
seated, straddling the bike, with a toe touching at left. With the other foot, I crank up the right
pedal to about 2 o'clock and push off on it. What can happen now is a mighty flop to the left, with
the whole front half at almost right angles to the back half. Since this can only result in a fall I
have to slam on the brakes and start again. When more successful, I push down on the right pedal,
jiggle the steering desperately to find a center, and manage to stay up just long enough to catch
the left, now upward pedal with my other foot. But as you say, the shorter distance between the seat
and the pedal axel means that I have to bring my knees much higher up on Behemoth than on Myrtille,
so the left pedal is harder to catch. Also, I feel tipped forward in relation to the pedals, which
feel too far behind me, despite the fact that the seat is as far back as it will go, and the
distance between the seat and the handlebars is already too great. This maximal distance is the best
I can do to lengthen the distance between seat and pedals. The pedals tend to be under the arches or
even the heels of my foot, rather than under the balls, and when I crank up to a stiffer gear there
is a tendency for my feet to slide off towards the front.

Another effect of the high pedal axel is that, having to bring my knees way up in transit, I sway
much more dramatically on Behemoth than on Myrtille. This, perhaps, is why she finds it hard to run
a straight line.

I was exploring the Utopia web-site that Paul Hamilton pointed me to yesterday. Midst all the
advertizing bumpf about how wonderful and unique their bikes are, the dealers say: "Mit Utopia
stehen Sie auch besser. Denn Ihr Pedal ist näher am Boden, damit Sie mit der Fußspitze einen
sicheren Stand haben."

I have no idea if this is true about their bikes and if there is a noticeable difference with
Behemoth, but it's interesting that they should raise the point - apparently I'm no the only person
complaining about crank height.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Behemoth routinely fails even simple corner turning. If it weren't for her excellent brakes, I
would already have crashed into a wall or two.

Again, what do you mean by "fail".

Behemoth, with her great flop-weight, has a much harder time staying upright at slow speeds than
Myrtille. With Myrtille, I can find the center of balance by jiggling the handlebar over just a few
degrees of arc, say 40 degrees . With Behemoth, I have to jiggle the handlebars every which way but
loose, over about 100 degrees of arc, and more often than not she just keels over. This over-jiggly
handlebar has been noticed by two other people whom I have asked to test Behemoth.

So take this typical instance where I enter a bike path about 2 meters wide, bordered by a curb at
each end. The entrance has an uphill bump over a few meters, together with a loose right curve of
about 120 degrees. The movement thus involves: Startup from the traffic light on the opposite side
of the street Threading into the bike lane Immediately braking to avoid the curb on the outer end of
the bend Jiggling to get the headset pointed subtly to the right Re-applying power to the pedals to
get over the bump.

Myrtille's 40 degree jiggle after braking enables me to stay within the path and reorient to the
right; Behemoth's 100 degree jiggle generally means that she keels over at braking and needs to be
turned _by hand_ in the right direction and restarted cold uphill.

So, in summary, I'm narrowing down this analysis to two principal problems - pedal crank too high
(or perhaps pedal stems too long?), and excessively floppy steering, especially at low speeds.

Thanks for helping me think it through.

EFR Ile de France

Hi Elisa,

Sorry to read about your problems... By the way, have your brought Behemoth to ist first check-up,
generally included in the price of the bike? Nearly every bolt, nut, and ball bearing needs to be
adjusted after few weeks.

In article <[email hidden]>, Elisa Francesca Roselli <Elisa.Francesca.Roselli@quadratec-

software.com said:

Paul Hamilton said:

I think something is clearly wrong. Dutch bikes are known to be heavy, but not to be unstable or
difficullt to ride. It sounds like Behemouth is either defective, much too big, or very badly
set up. In neither case will familiarity improve things.

I have had her tested by a number of other riders. Two, so far, have found her hard to steer, the
others have said there was no problem. There seems to be a ruling creed among cycling elitists of
the John Forrester ilk that upmarket bikes are "supposed" to be that way. They call it "Sensitive
Steering". I call it "Oversteering All the Time".

Now, I understand what the symptoms are. I can suggest three hypothesis : 1- the headset is badly
setup, too loose or too tight. You can check that yourself easily. For looseness, squeeze the
front brake; grab the steering tube with a hand, your index finger touching the cover of the
headset; yank the bike front-back. You should not feel the headset moving from the tube. You may
also lift (3 cm) the front wheel and left it bounce on the floor. You should not hear any
rattling or strange noises. For tightness, lift the front wheel off the floor and turn the
handlebar slowly all the way. There should be not grabing, "rough spot", or "indexing". Then lift
all the tilt it forward and then incline it slowly left and right: the front wheel should turn
freely and smoothly, you should be able to bring it in any position you want by simply inclining
the bike. For a perfect adjustment, the test can be made with the wheel off the fork.

2- the fork is bent. This is difficult to check statically (inspect for strange bents paint
anomalies, but don't expect to see too much...). The test is no-hand riding. With a bent fork,
the bike needs to be tilted to ride straight.

3- the geometry of the bike is wrong. If so, bad luck to you... We have two hybrids which have
this flaw. The worst is my wife's, probably because being smaller, it amplifies the defect. I
can't ride no-hand mine because of its instability

Of course, before doing the tests, I assume that a general check that everyting looks well in place
(handlbar well aligned, wheels well seated and reasonably centered, etc.) has been made.

As a last advice, don't listen too much to competition oriented cyclists; their views are rather
twisted and often wrong (fashion do not make reason:-). Get advices from commuters or tourers for
your current problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Germans make some very good commuting/trekking bikes, also equipped with the Nexus or
Rohloff.

This whole problem originated in the fact that such bikes _cannot_ be found here. The only way I
can obtain one of these German bikes, or have a better choice of Dutch bikes, is to travel to
Germany or Holland and buy one on location. This option is too expensive for me at the moment.
Moreover, judging from catalogue, very few bikes in this category have 26" wheels, which I think
may be one of my requirements.

That's unfortunately true. Why are 26" a requirement? If a 50cm frame is still slightly small for
you, I don't think you will get problems with 700 wheels. My wife's tourer is 50cm, has 700 wheels,
and is perfectly stable.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd look for a shop that actually understands Dutch bikes and have them but Behemouth to rights.
Failing that, they should be able to find you one that fits you.

There is _one_specialist in Paris who deals with this kind of bike - Behemoth's own dealer. Now
that I have Myrtille back, perhaps I will take Behemoth back there to have her looked at. As this
requires quite an extensive ride through busy Paris streets, I will need a day off work, good
weather, and a functioning tire on Behemoth, currently being repaired at the nearest LBS..

Are you sure you need a *specialist* for adjusting/repairing a dutch bike? One of the beauty of
cycling is the mechanical simplicity of our vehicules. Even the Nexus hub can be serviced by
anybody with an interest in mechanics. So, any professional bike mech can tuneup your bike. Of
course, the problem is finding one who you trust and who is willing to work on your bike. I don't
know where you are exactly, but in this country, it is not very difficult to find a small, friendly
and family run LBS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I see it, you have two bikes, neither one of which fits your needs. Keeping one as a backup
in case of a flat makes sense to me.

Yes, when I got the bill for upgrading Myrtille I felt a little faint, but now I see that it was
well-spent money.

Yes, having a back-up bike is a good idea.

Jean-Pierre

Rick Onanian said:

See the bike:

bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7H poOpen ↗ pup.jpg

Quoted message said:

You knw when I look at the rake and trail of this bike it does seem to very unstable. I'm no expert
on these things but if you draw a line from the forks to the ground and drop a line from the hub
they seem to touch the ground fairly close to each other. The closer the more sensitive the steering
and the further apart the more stable or insensitive the steering. Anyways this is what I've
understood. Anybody else care to take a peek?

Quoted message said:

Quite an attractive bike, actually.

Of course, the resolution is a little bit short of 3d solid holography, so we can't really examine
it well... 😉

I wonder if

bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7D poOpen ↗ pup.jpg

Quoted message said:

would have been a better choice? Maybe easier to mount.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Per Elmsäter said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if

bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7D poOpen ↗ pup.jpg

Quoted message said:

would have been a better choice? Maybe easier to mount.

Yes of course, that's the ladies' model, and the one I have.

EFR Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Per Elmsäter said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if

bikkelbikes.comNeerhem7D poOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pup.jpg

Quoted message said:

would have been a better choice? Maybe easier to mount.

Yes of course, that's the ladies' model, and the one I have.

EFR Ile de France

Well the rake and trail looks no better on the ladies version. Ie I'm not surprised you find it
unstable or oversensitive. It's probably not very easy even for a very experienced rider to ride it
no hands for instance.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I clinch the brakes so that she doesn't squiggle, get a foot over her, tip her to the left, back
onto the seat, and straighten her. At this point I am seated, straddling the bike, with a toe
touching at left. With the other foot, I crank up the right pedal to about 2 o'clock and push
off on it.

This seems a strange way to mount a bike; and I bet it's because you are unable to mount and ride
without being seated.

sheldonbrown.comstarting.htmlOpen ↗ contains a good description of the method that I use. You
may be able to do it this way, even if only for a short moment, before you have to sit.

Quoted message said:

I was exploring the Utopia web-site that Paul Hamilton pointed me to yesterday. Midst all the
advertizing bumpf about how wonderful and unique their bikes are, the dealers say: "Mit Utopia
stehen Sie auch besser. Denn Ihr Pedal ist näher am Boden, damit Sie mit der Fußspitze einen
sicheren Stand haben."

I ran this through babelfish.altavista.com and got :With Utopia you stand also better. Because your
pedal :is closer at the soil, so that you have safe conditions :with the fussspitze.

Quoted message said:

Behemoth, with her great flop-weight, has a much harder time staying upright at slow speeds than
Myrtille. With Myrtille, I can find the center of balance by jiggling the handlebar over just a few
degrees of arc, say 40 degrees . With Behemoth, I have to jiggle the handlebars every which way but
loose, over about 100 degrees of arc, and more often than not she just keels over. This over-jiggly
handlebar has been noticed by two other people whom I have asked to test Behemoth.

Does Behemoth's handlebar turn smoothly, and does the wheel turn with the handlebar? The jiggling
you describe is hard to imagine except under one or both of those conditions.

Quoted message said:

So, in summary, I'm narrowing down this analysis to two principal problems
- pedal crank too high (or perhaps pedal stems too long?), and

If you think that you can ride with the "pedal stems" (these are actually called crank arms)
shorter, then that might be worth a try. Just keep in mind that such a change does change your
leverage on the pedals, requiring you to put more force into the pedals.

Quoted message said:

excessively floppy steering, especially at low speeds.

I think the bike is too large for you, too. I recall that when you adjusted the stem, the bike
became excessively unstable when you were in a comfortable position, and was uncomfortable when
stable; and I see now that you also would like to be further behind the pedals. You could do that
with a set-back seatpost, but that would put you even further from the handlebar.

You may be able to accomplish it by using a set-back seatpost in combination with a handlebar that
sweeps further back; you then get to mount the handlebar in a stable position, but have the bar
easier to reach comfortably.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for helping me think it through.

I hope you can get it figured out.

Quoted message said:

EFR Ile de France

--
Rick Onanian

"Elisa Francesca Roselli"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Storey said:

Describe "fail". If Behemoth were geared too high, such that you

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to push off with a mighty "Oomph!!", I would expect some major wobbling, wheel flop, etc. But
Behemoth has plenty low gears, so

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seems unlikely (are you using them?).

If not of wheel size, this must be a function of the height of the

pedal axel (crank?) which is at least two inches higher off the ground on

Quoted message said:

Behemoth than on Myrtille.

It goes like this. I crank my Nexus to an appropriate gear for the

terrain, one or two for a slight uphill, three or four for flat or downhill.

Quoted message said:

I clinch the brakes so that she doesn't squiggle, get a foot over

her, tip her to the left, back onto the seat, and straighten her. At this

Quoted message said:

point I am seated, straddling the bike, with a toe touching at

left. With the other foot, I crank up the right pedal to about 2 o'clock and push

Quoted message said:

off on it. What can happen now is a mighty flop to the left, with

the whole front half at almost right angles to the back half. Since this can

Quoted message said:

only result in a fall I have to slam on the brakes and start again.

When more successful, I push down on the right pedal, jiggle the steering

Quoted message said:

desperately to find a center, and manage to stay up just long

enough to catch the left, now upward pedal with my other foot. But as you say, the

Quoted message said:

shorter distance between the seat and the pedal axel means that I

have to bring my knees much higher up on Behemoth than on Myrtille, so the

Quoted message said:

left pedal is harder to catch. Also, I feel tipped forward in

relation to the pedals, which feel too far behind me, despite the fact that the

Quoted message said:

seat is as far back as it will go, and the distance between the

seat and the handlebars is already too great. This maximal distance is the best

Quoted message said:

I can do to lengthen the distance between seat and pedals. The

pedals tend to be under the arches or even the heels of my foot, rather than

Quoted message said:

under the balls, and when I crank up to a stiffer gear there is a

tendency for my feet to slide off towards the front.

Quoted message said:

The turn to the left at startup sounds "wheel flop", like the angle of the fork is too shallow,
maybe a condition agravated by the additional weight of the generator hub. groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=19980412233825521051%40per8-217.wantree.com.au&rnum=1

Your problem with the pedals sounds like both the seat and handlebars are too far forward for you.
Perhaps replacement of the handlebars or the stem would allow you to sit farther back. Of course,
all this is more cost and time invested with an uncertain outcome.

The fact is you have no obligation to like your new bike. You should pick the best things about
each and get one that has it all. I expect the frame and fork geometry should be closer to Myrtille
than Behemoth.