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OT: Time To Become A Vegan?

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Road Cycling
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23 January 2004
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B. Lafferty
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  1. SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad cow
    danger may even be bigger

    Research suggests sick animals may not show symptoms

    Tuesday, January 13, 2004

    By TODD HARTMAN SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE

    Below the drumbeat of reassurances from government and the cattle industry that the meat supply
    remains safe despite this one case of mad cow disease, a small universe of scientists working on a
    family of related illnesses is finding disturbing evidence to the contrary.

    Several studies, including research at a government laboratory in Montana, continue to spark
    questions about human susceptibility not only to mad cow, but also to sister diseases such as
    chronic wasting disease, which mainly affects deer and elk, and scrapie, which infects sheep.

    Mice research and clusters of cases in which humans contracted a disease similar to mad cow also has
    a few scientists wondering whether consuming infected meat might have killed far more people than
    medical experts have long assumed, not only in Great Britain, but in the United States as well.

    Most scientists believe the relatively small number of known human cases, called Creutzfeldt-Jacob
    disease, strongly indicates this disease -- whatever its cause or origin -- is rare and difficult to
    transmit. There is also no evidence yet that scrapie in sheep or chronic wasting disease in deer has
    ever been passed to humans.

    But some scientists say it's possible that chronic wasting, endemic in Colorado's wild deer and
    elk, has sickened and proved fatal to humans. These experts challenging the standard view note
    that doctors haven't -- or can't -- recognize signs of these other forms of the disease during
    an autopsy.

    Little of this research reaches the broad public audience, leaving most people to hear only the oft-
    repeated promises of well-funded interest groups or high-profile public officials.

    Just last week, for example, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association described mad cow disease
    solely as an animal and economic problem -- not a human health problem. The U.S. Department of
    Agriculture has said repeatedly that the nation's beef supply is safe.

    Such statements, offered frequently since the December discovery of a Holstein with mad cow
    disease in Washington state, spark criticism from some scientists and consumer advocates who say
    that the government and industry are injecting certainty into a field where uncertainty remains
    the dominant theme.

    Much remains unknown about so-called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, or TSEs, the family
    of diseases to which mad cow, scrapie, chronic wasting disease and two human versions -- known as
    Creutzfeldt-Jakob, or CJD, and "new variant" CJD -- belong.

    This rogues' gallery of deadly illnesses features an array of frightening symptoms. In humans they
    can include depression, inability to conduct simple tasks such as operating a telephone and loss of
    balance and speech. In every case, the victim's brain becomes riddled with holes; thoughts, emotions
    and memories disappear on the way to death, often in just a matter of months.

    But much about the diseases remains a mystery.

    Clusters of a rare disease

    It's long been believed, for example, that only one of the two versions of human CJD can be linked
    to eating meat contaminated with mad cow disease. The other version, known as sporadic or classical
    CJD, has long been thought to occur randomly in about one in every million people, a distinctive
    illness with no link to meat from an infected animal.

    But a few studies in the past three years have challenged that view, suggesting that classical CJD,
    might, in some cases, also result from eating contaminated meat.

    Scientists in Great Britain injected tissue from a cow with mad cow disease, also known as bovine
    spongiform encephalapothy, into mice whose brains were genetically engineered with human genes. One
    set of mice fell sick with the human form of mad cow, or new variant CJD.

    But, in a finding that stunned researchers worldwide, another set of the genetically altered mice
    developed what looked like the sporadic form of CJD, the one scientists have long believed has no
    relationship to mad cow disease or meat-eating.

    "This finding has important potential implications as it raises the possibility that some humans
    infected with (mad cow disease) may develop a clinical disease indistinguishable from classical
    CJD," the researchers wrote in November 2002.

    French scientists a year earlier found a strain of scrapie, the version of the disease that infects
    sheep, also caused brain damage in mice similar to classical CJD.

    Though these findings run counter to most studies, the two studies suggest that some of the hundreds
    of Americans who contract classical CJD each year could have been infected by mad cow-contaminated
    meat, and not simply by biological bad luck.

    Then there are the mysterious clusters of human cases. Because classical CJD is so rare, scientists
    don't usually expect it to occur in clusters. But such clusters have occurred, including among
    hunters eating venison.

    The most recent example involves seven people who apparently died of classical CJD in New Jersey.
    All of them had a link with a racetrack in Cherry Hill where they ate, according to reporting this
    month in The Philadelphia Inquirer.

    Most surprising: The deaths included a 29-year-old. It's extraordinarily rare for someone so young
    to die of classical CJD. Victims are typically older than 55. In contrast, victims of new variant
    CJD in the 1990s mad cow panic in England were often young people.

    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention wasn't initially interested in the cluster, but
    since the discovery of the case of mad cow in Washington state the agency is taking another look at
    the case, according to The Inquirer.

    CJD may be underreported

    Even so, experts caution that clusters can also be coincidences. Rare diseases don't always end up
    geographically spread out.

    "The cluster is curious, but these sorts of things can happen by random chance," said Patrick
    Bosque, a neurologist at Denver Health and an expert on TSE.

    Bosque is open-minded about the possibility of humans contracting such diseases at a higher rate
    than is currently believed, but is also cautious about jumping to conclusions.

    "With almost 300 cases of CJD expected in the U.S. each year, it isn't too surprising that over
    a few years one might occasionally find a cluster associated with some ill-defined event or
    place," he said.

    But some scientists believe the true number of U.S. CJD cases is underreported, and the disease is
    not as rare as once believed. Some experts believe that it is possible that some cases diagnosed as
    Alzheimer's could actually be CJD. Some other dementia-like diseases could also be misdiagnosed,
    experts say.

    "Given the new research showing that infected beef may be responsible for some (classical) CJD,
    thousands of Americans may already be dying because of mad cow disease every year," wrote Dr.
    Michael Greger, a physician and vegan advocate.

    Many scientists, however, caution that if mad cow disease were really fueling an increase of
    classical CJD in the United States, then we should also be seeing many more cases of new variant
    CJD, the form of mad cow disease that struck people in Great Britain.

    Even in Britain, where millions of people were estimated to have eaten mad cow-contaminated meat,
    fewer than 150 people came down with new variant CJD.

    "Could BSE have been transmitted to people in the U.S. but gone unrecognized because it looked like
    (classical) CJD?" Bosque said. "I suppose it is possible, but there would be no obvious explanation
    for the fact that (new variant) CJD has not been seen in the U.S."

    But the critics answer that the United States has no formal monitoring system in place to track CJD
    cases and autopsy the victims. That would enable scientists to more accurately detect trends in
    occurrences and study the pattern of destruction in the brain that reveals whether a victim died of
    classical or new variant CJD.

    TSEs borne by silent carriers

    At a National Institutes of Health laboratory in western Montana, researchers are focused on the
    question of what happens when TSEs move back and forth between different animals. What they've found
    is unsettling.

    Their latest research is an extension of work they've been conducting for several years. It shows
    that TSEs can be passed to some animals without causing disease, but then passed onto another
    species where they cause illness.

    The implications are significant.

    Researchers began by taking brains of hamsters infected with scrapie and injecting that tissue into
    mice. Then, they killed the mice at various points and tested for presence of the infectious agents
    -- called prions -- in the brains of mice. They didn't find any.

    But researchers took the next step, injecting tissues from these apparently prion-free mice into
    another set of healthy mice and hamsters. That's when the outcome turned frightening: the newly
    infected creatures developed TSEs and died.

    What does it mean? The mice from the earlier part of the experiment were not free of the disease
    after all. They were silent carriers of a sort, not showing any signs of the illness but able to
    infect others.

    This could have dramatic implications for the real world. What if, for example, some humans carry
    mad cow disease or another TSE, but aren't affected by it? Perhaps they could still pass it on
    through blood transfusions or transplants. In the words of researchers: "Subclinical human carriers
    might pose a serious risk for contamination of surgical instruments, tissue transplants and blood
    products," according to a 2002 report on the mice-hamster experiments in Montana.

    Then there are the ramifications for animals.

    Michael Hansen, a scientist for Consumers Union, points out that cattle tissues that are mostly
    removed from the human food chain are still converted to feed for chickens and pigs, among others.

    Remains of those animals, in turn, are still rendered into cattle feed -- a practice derided by
    critics and banned in Europe, but still legal and common in the United States.

    "Those animals could become silent carriers and infect cattle," Hansen said.

    The Montana researchers have continued their work, injecting tissues from the mice and hamsters that
    became sick into yet another set. The next generation of mice and hamsters got sick as well.

    The experiments have also revealed another disturbing fact.

    The infectious prions appear to persist and adapt, evolving to infect a new species and even
    becoming more virulent as they move between species. In some cases, incubation periods change,
    growing longer or shorter depending on the experiment.

    In short, behavior of the diseases has been unpredictable, making statements of certainty about them
    untenable.

    Bosque, the Denver neurologist, said the ability for TSEs to hide inside some animals and increase
    their infectivity is worrisome.

    "It raises an additional level of concern, that these prions can persist in animals, and increase,
    even though (the animals) don't appear sick," Bosque said. "For one thing, it shows you that
    screening for just obviously sick animals may not be sufficient."

    But currently, the United States focuses its testing almost solely on sick or "downer" animals.
    Industry officials have said testing every cow for mad cow disease as Japan does would be a waste of
    time and money.

    DEFINING DISEASES Several similar brain-wasting diseases affect livestock and wild animals:

    * Mad cow disease: Also known as bovine spongiform encephalopathy, this disease infects cattle.
    Infectious proteins called prions kill brain cells, causing spongelike holes to develop. First
    identified in Europe in the 1980s.

    * Chronic wasting disease: This illness infects deer and elk. No cases of transmission to hunters
    eating the meat have been confirmed.

    * Scrapie: This spongiform disease is found in domesticated sheep.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    P-I reporter Tom Paulson contributed to this report.

    © 1998-2004 Seattle Post-Intelligencer
    --

  2. Please enough with the scare mongering. One call to arms, anti-doping, isn't enough for you?

    cordially

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad cow
    danger may even be bigger

    Research suggests sick animals may not show symptoms

    Tuesday, January 13, 2004

    By TODD HARTMAN SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE

    Below the drumbeat of reassurances from government and the cattle industry that the meat supply
    remains safe despite this one case of mad cow


    disease,

    Quoted message said:

    a small universe of scientists working on a family of related illnesses is finding disturbing
    evidence to the contrary.

    Several studies, including research at a government laboratory in Montana, continue to spark
    questions about human susceptibility not only to mad


    cow,

    Quoted message said:

    but also to sister diseases such as chronic wasting disease, which mainly affects deer and elk,
    and scrapie, which infects sheep.

    Mice research and clusters of cases in which humans contracted a disease similar to mad cow
    also has a few scientists wondering whether consuming infected meat might have killed far more
    people than medical experts have long assumed, not only in Great Britain, but in the United
    States as well.

    Most scientists believe the relatively small number of known human cases, called Creutzfeldt-Jacob
    disease, strongly indicates this disease -- whatever its cause or origin -- is rare and difficult
    to transmit. There


    is

    Quoted message said:

    also no evidence yet that scrapie in sheep or chronic wasting disease in deer has ever been passed
    to humans.

    But some scientists say it's possible that chronic wasting, endemic in Colorado's wild deer and
    elk, has sickened and proved fatal to humans.


    These

    Quoted message said:

    experts challenging the standard view note that doctors haven't -- or


    can't

    Quoted message said:

    -- recognize signs of these other forms of the disease during an autopsy.

    Little of this research reaches the broad public audience, leaving most people to hear only the
    oft-repeated promises of well-funded interest


    groups

    Quoted message said:

    or high-profile public officials.

    Just last week, for example, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association described mad cow disease
    solely as an animal and economic problem -- not


    a

    Quoted message said:

    human health problem. The U.S. Department of Agriculture has said


    repeatedly

    Quoted message said:

    that the nation's beef supply is safe.

    Such statements, offered frequently since the December discovery of a Holstein with mad cow
    disease in Washington state, spark criticism from


    some

    Quoted message said:

    scientists and consumer advocates who say that the government and industry are injecting certainty
    into a field where uncertainty remains the


    dominant

    Quoted message said:

    theme.

    Much remains unknown about so-called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, or TSEs, the
    family of diseases to which mad cow,


    scrapie,

    Quoted message said:

    chronic wasting disease and two human versions -- known as Creutzfeldt-Jakob, or CJD, and "new
    variant" CJD -- belong.

    This rogues' gallery of deadly illnesses features an array of frightening symptoms. In humans they
    can include depression, inability to conduct


    simple

    Quoted message said:

    tasks such as operating a telephone and loss of balance and speech. In


    every

    Quoted message said:

    case, the victim's brain becomes riddled with holes; thoughts, emotions


    and

    Quoted message said:

    memories disappear on the way to death, often in just a matter of months.

    But much about the diseases remains a mystery.

    Clusters of a rare disease

    It's long been believed, for example, that only one of the two versions of human CJD can be linked
    to eating meat contaminated with mad cow disease. The other version, known as sporadic or
    classical CJD, has long been


    thought

    Quoted message said:

    to occur randomly in about one in every million people, a distinctive illness with no link to meat
    from an infected animal.

    But a few studies in the past three years have challenged that view, suggesting that classical
    CJD, might, in some cases, also result from


    eating

    Quoted message said:

    contaminated meat.

    Scientists in Great Britain injected tissue from a cow with mad cow


    disease,

    Quoted message said:

    also known as bovine spongiform encephalapothy, into mice whose brains


    were

    Quoted message said:

    genetically engineered with human genes. One set of mice fell sick with


    the

    Quoted message said:

    human form of mad cow, or new variant CJD.

    But, in a finding that stunned researchers worldwide, another set of the genetically altered mice
    developed what looked like the sporadic form of CJD, the one scientists have long believed has no
    relationship to mad cow disease or meat-eating.

    "This finding has important potential implications as it raises the possibility that some humans
    infected with (mad cow disease) may develop a clinical disease indistinguishable from classical
    CJD," the researchers wrote in November 2002.

    French scientists a year earlier found a strain of scrapie, the version of the disease that
    infects sheep, also caused brain damage in mice similar


    to

    Quoted message said:

    classical CJD.

    Though these findings run counter to most studies, the two studies suggest that some of the
    hundreds of Americans who contract classical CJD each


    year

    Quoted message said:

    could have been infected by mad cow-contaminated meat, and not simply by biological bad luck.

    Then there are the mysterious clusters of human cases. Because classical


    CJD

    Quoted message said:

    is so rare, scientists don't usually expect it to occur in clusters. But such clusters have
    occurred, including among hunters eating venison.

    The most recent example involves seven people who apparently died of classical CJD in New Jersey.
    All of them had a link with a racetrack in Cherry Hill where they ate, according to reporting this
    month in The Philadelphia Inquirer.

    Most surprising: The deaths included a 29-year-old. It's extraordinarily rare for someone so young
    to die of classical CJD. Victims are typically older than 55. In contrast, victims of new variant
    CJD in the 1990s mad


    cow

    Quoted message said:

    panic in England were often young people.

    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention wasn't initially interested in the cluster,
    but since the discovery of the case of mad cow


    in

    Quoted message said:

    Washington state the agency is taking another look at the case, according


    to

    Quoted message said:

    The Inquirer.

    CJD may be underreported

    Even so, experts caution that clusters can also be coincidences. Rare diseases don't always end up
    geographically spread out.

    "The cluster is curious, but these sorts of things can happen by random chance," said Patrick
    Bosque, a neurologist at Denver Health and an expert on TSE.

    Bosque is open-minded about the possibility of humans contracting such diseases at a higher rate
    than is currently believed, but is also cautious about jumping to conclusions.

    "With almost 300 cases of CJD expected in the U.S. each year, it isn't too surprising that over a
    few years one might occasionally find a cluster associated with some ill-defined event or place,"
    he said.

    But some scientists believe the true number of U.S. CJD cases is underreported, and the disease is
    not as rare as once believed. Some


    experts

    Quoted message said:

    believe that it is possible that some cases diagnosed as Alzheimer's could actually be CJD. Some
    other dementia-like diseases could also be misdiagnosed, experts say.

    "Given the new research showing that infected beef may be responsible for some (classical) CJD,
    thousands of Americans may already be dying because


    of

    Quoted message said:

    mad cow disease every year," wrote Dr. Michael Greger, a physician and


    vegan

    Quoted message said:

    advocate.

    Many scientists, however, caution that if mad cow disease were really fueling an increase of
    classical CJD in the United States, then we should also be seeing many more cases of new variant
    CJD, the form of mad cow disease that struck people in Great Britain.

    Even in Britain, where millions of people were estimated to have eaten mad cow-contaminated meat,
    fewer than 150 people came down with new variant


    CJD.

    Quoted message said:


    "Could BSE have been transmitted to people in the U.S. but gone


    unrecognized

    Quoted message said:

    because it looked like (classical) CJD?" Bosque said. "I suppose it is possible, but there would
    be no obvious explanation for the fact that (new variant) CJD has not been seen in the U.S."

    But the critics answer that the United States has no formal monitoring system in place to track
    CJD cases and autopsy the victims. That would enable scientists to more accurately detect trends
    in occurrences and


    study

    Quoted message said:

    the pattern of destruction in the brain that reveals whether a victim died of classical or new
    variant CJD.

    TSEs borne by silent carriers

    At a National Institutes of Health laboratory in western Montana, researchers are focused on the
    question of what happens when TSEs move


    back

    Quoted message said:

    and forth between different animals. What they've found is unsettling.

    Their latest research is an extension of work they've been conducting for several years. It shows
    that TSEs can be passed to some animals without causing disease, but then passed onto another
    species where they cause illness.

    The implications are significant.

    Researchers began by taking brains of hamsters infected with scrapie and injecting that tissue
    into mice. Then, they killed the mice at various points and tested for presence of the infectious
    agents -- called


    prions --

    Quoted message said:

    in the brains of mice. They didn't find any.

    But researchers took the next step, injecting tissues from these


    apparently

    Quoted message said:

    prion-free mice into another set of healthy mice and hamsters. That's when the outcome turned
    frightening: the newly infected creatures developed


    TSEs

    Quoted message said:

    and died.

    What does it mean? The mice from the earlier part of the experiment were


    not

    Quoted message said:

    free of the disease after all. They were silent carriers of a sort, not showing any signs of the
    illness but able to infect others.

    This could have dramatic implications for the real world. What if, for example, some humans carry
    mad cow disease or another TSE, but aren't affected by it? Perhaps they could still pass it on
    through blood transfusions or transplants. In the words of researchers: "Subclinical


    human

    Quoted message said:

    carriers might pose a serious risk for contamination of surgical instruments, tissue transplants
    and blood products," according to a 2002 report on the mice-hamster experiments in Montana.

    Then there are the ramifications for animals.

    Michael Hansen, a scientist for Consumers Union, points out that cattle tissues that are mostly
    removed from the human food chain are still converted to feed for chickens and pigs, among others.

    Remains of those animals, in turn, are still rendered into cattle feed --


    a

    Quoted message said:

    practice derided by critics and banned in Europe, but still legal and


    common

    Quoted message said:

    in the United States.

    "Those animals could become silent carriers and infect cattle," Hansen


    said.

    Quoted message said:


    The Montana researchers have continued their work, injecting tissues from the mice and hamsters
    that became sick into yet another set. The next generation of mice and hamsters got sick as well.

    The experiments have also revealed another disturbing fact.

    The infectious prions appear to persist and adapt, evolving to infect a


    new

    Quoted message said:

    species and even becoming more virulent as they move between species. In some cases, incubation
    periods change, growing longer or shorter depending on the experiment.

    In short, behavior of the diseases has been unpredictable, making


    statements

    Quoted message said:

    of certainty about them untenable.

    Bosque, the Denver neurologist, said the ability for TSEs to hide inside some animals and increase
    their infectivity is worrisome.

    "It raises an additional level of concern, that these prions can persist


    in

    Quoted message said:

    animals, and increase, even though (the animals) don't appear sick,"


    Bosque

    Quoted message said:

    said. "For one thing, it shows you that screening for just obviously sick animals may not be
    sufficient."

    But currently, the United States focuses its testing almost solely on sick or "downer" animals.
    Industry officials have said testing every cow for


    mad

    Quoted message said:

    cow disease as Japan does would be a waste of time and money.

    DEFINING DISEASES Several similar brain-wasting diseases affect livestock and wild animals:

    * Mad cow disease: Also known as bovine spongiform encephalopathy, this disease infects cattle.
    Infectious proteins called prions kill brain


    cells,

    Quoted message said:

    causing spongelike holes to develop. First identified in Europe in the 1980s.

    * Chronic wasting disease: This illness infects deer and elk. No cases


    of

    Quoted message said:

    transmission to hunters eating the meat have been confirmed.

    * Scrapie: This spongiform disease is found in domesticated sheep.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    P-I reporter Tom Paulson contributed to this report.

    © 1998-2004 Seattle Post-Intelligencer
    --

  3. Dear Ignorant One,

    I'm not against doping. I think pros should use whatever they want after signing an informed
    consent and making provisions for widows and orphans after their early deaths.

    Relax and go eat some potted meat product. You'll feel better.

    "matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Please enough with the scare mongering. One call to arms, anti-doping, isn't enough for you?

    cordially

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad cow
    danger may even be bigger

  4. you're influenced quite easily eh? Do you really believe all that you read from one source? Ohh
    GOODNESS A PI.

    Basically heres the deal, no one knows much about nvCJD. how and who contracts it is unknown. go eat
    some more meat. idiot!

    david

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Dear Ignorant One,

    I'm not against doping. I think pros should use whatever they want


    after

    Quoted message said:

    signing an informed consent and making provisions for widows and orphans after their early deaths.

    Relax and go eat some potted meat product. You'll feel better.

    "matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Please enough with the scare mongering. One call to arms, anti-doping, isn't enough for you?

    cordially

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad cow
    danger may even be bigger

  5. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad cow
    danger may even be bigger

    Research suggests sick animals may not show symptoms

    On the other hand - there were something like 800,000 Britains exposed to the disease and only a
    couple of hundred contracted it. They feel that in the end perhaps a maximum of less than a thousand
    cases may be found.

    There isn't much chance of contracting it from muscle meat and it's hard to contract from brain and
    neural matter.

  6. Dear David,

    The article notes a number of studies that have not been discussed in most mainstream media and
    certainly not addressed by the Bush Agricultural Secretary who is a former lobbyist for the
    cattle industry. What the article raises are serious issues that should be investigated
    carefully and systematically. Most troubling is the prospect of cross species infection via
    silent carriers. Ordinarily, one would expect that this would be something that government would
    investigate to protect its citizens. It probably isn't going to happen under the current
    administration.

    The article was given to me by a physician friend who is far from an alarmist. She and other
    physicians and veterinarians (including my wife) are very concerned by the possible implications
    of the research noted. All agree that more investigation is needed and all agree that it would
    be prudent to consider carefully what one is eating.

    BTW, a veterinarian friend who is an avid deer hunter and venison consumer, has decided to forego
    hunting for and eating venison after reading the article and looking at several of the studies.

    "david" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    you're influenced quite easily eh? Do you really believe all that you


    read

    Quoted message said:

    from one source? Ohh GOODNESS A PI.

    Basically heres the deal, no one knows much about nvCJD. how and who contracts it is unknown. go
    eat some more meat. idiot!

    david

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Dear Ignorant One,

    I'm not against doping. I think pros should use whatever they want


    after

    Quoted message said:

    signing an informed consent and making provisions for widows and orphans after their early
    deaths.

    Relax and go eat some potted meat product. You'll feel better.

    "matabala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Please enough with the scare mongering. One call to arms,


    anti-doping,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    isn't enough for you?

    cordially

    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER seattlepi.nwsource.com156393 madcow13.html Mad
    > cow danger may even be bigger



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