Watering Eggs

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth with
water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please explain
to me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

it would be encoded like any other trait/characteristic. sometimes a trait is a stronger beak,
sometimes its avoiding bright light, sometimes its laying your eggs in another animals nest.

also, its important to keep the direction straight, the genetic code would become the behaviour, not
the behaviour existing without encoding and then becomming encoded (at least not in every
conceivable case). so the trait/behaviour in this case is a result of changes in dna.

but it wouldn't be a single simple change, like a change from one base to another. something complex
like that most likely require many many genes and over-lapping functions of genes to exist.

it certainly would be a good idea to keep eggs cool. If an animal does it that way and thus has an
advantage over other memebers of the same population (and the trait in inheritable ie has a genetic
basis) then the population will with time have more and more members with that trait, if that is
what you were getting at.

"R.Schenck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please explain

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

it would be encoded like any other trait/characteristic. sometimes a trait is a stronger beak,
sometimes its avoiding bright light, sometimes its laying your eggs in another animals nest.

also, its important to keep the direction straight, the genetic code would become the behaviour,
not the behaviour existing without encoding and then becomming encoded (at least not in every
conceivable case). so the trait/behaviour in this case is a result of changes in dna.

but it wouldn't be a single simple change, like a change from one base to another.
something complex like that most likely require many many genes and over-lapping functions
of genes to exist.

it certainly would be a good idea to keep eggs cool. If an animal does it that way and thus has an
advantage over other memebers of the same population (and the trait in inheritable ie has a
genetic basis) then the population will with time have more and more members with that trait, if
that is what you were getting at.

Thanks for your reply, I still have trouble grasping this one though, I do understand what you are
saying, however I find it hard to grasp how such a complex behaviour can manifest itself when it
most likely requires as you say "many many genes and over-lapping functions...". For example, if
some of the genes required for this behaviour became available but others were still lacking, would
the existing genes not simply be selected out of the species over time before the fully required set
become available? What I am trying to say is that anything less that the fully developed behaviour
of watering the eggs would be of no use to the species, therefore how does the developing behaviour
stay in the species long enough to fully develop?

Andrew Ward said:

"R.Schenck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please
explain

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

it would be encoded like any other trait/characteristic. sometimes a trait is a stronger beak,
sometimes its avoiding bright light, sometimes its laying your eggs in another animals nest.

also, its important to keep the direction straight, the genetic code would become the behaviour,
not the behaviour existing without encoding and then becomming encoded (at least not in every
conceivable case). so the trait/behaviour in this case is a result of changes in dna.

but it wouldn't be a single simple change, like a change from one base to another.
something complex like that most likely require many many genes and over-lapping functions
of genes to exist.

it certainly would be a good idea to keep eggs cool. If an animal does it that way and thus has
an advantage over other memebers of the same population (and the trait in inheritable ie has a
genetic basis) then the population will with time have more and more members with that trait, if
that is what you were getting at.

Thanks for your reply, I still have trouble grasping this one though, I do understand what you are
saying, however I find it hard to grasp how such a complex behaviour can manifest itself when it
most likely requires as you say "many many genes and over-lapping functions...". For example, if
some of the genes required for this behaviour became available but others were still lacking, would
the existing genes not simply be selected out of the species over time before the fully required
set become available? What I am trying to say is that anything less that the fully developed
behaviour of watering the eggs would be of no use to the species, therefore how does the developing
behaviour stay in the species long enough to fully develop?

yes but what does this involve? it involves many things that the animal can do already. lay eggs,
find water, hold it in its mouth, drop it on the eggs when it is hot. what makes the animal realize
its hot? its a nervous-chemical reaction. its got other functions too. one function is to realize
that its hot.

perhaps one bird started off with just bringing cold water to the nest and spitting it out in the
first place, to cool it off for itself, instead of slapshing around in a birdbath or what not and
attracting predators. that'd be beneficial. so it gets passed on to the offspring birds, and the
population begins to assume this trait as a general characteristic, because these types of birds
are less likely to suffer from predation and heat stroke and thus have more offspring than others.
maybe some of these birds now start dropping the water on the eggs themselves, well that 'd be good
for the bird, cools off the nest, and it cools off the eggs specifically, preventing them from
burning out.

the point is that the steps leading to the trait don't have to be obviously 'progressing' torwards
it. The intermeadite traits just need to be beneficial on their own. if they are, they are kept.

as far as the encoding of behaviour in genes, that in itself is a very detailed subject, and I don't
think its in general been demonstrated to the greatest satisfaction. but the chemicals involved in
'feel good' stimulations are of course chemicals, they are manufactured from the genetic code, so
even 'ethereal' things like emotions and feelings have a hard chemical basis.

with behaviours its even more complex. perhaps the genetic code doesn't obviously produce the
behaviour. but it produces the brain, and the brain is controlling the behaviour. perhaps the cause
of te behaviour ultimately lies in the complex network of cells that is the brain, which produced
just like anyother body part, and may jsut have a statistical tendency to perform this behaviour.
the genes for the brain are inherited, a similar brain is made in the offspring, and similiar
beneficial behaviour results.

i hope this isn't too too vague (too vauge would be ok, but too too vague?)

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth with
water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please explain
to me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

I read about an even more unusual bird which, when its eggs become too cold, it sits on them to keep
them warm! And then, when they hatch, and the chicks become too hungry, it fills its mouth with
worms and sprinkles the worms over the chicks to keep them nourished! Ain't nature amazing?

Irony aside, it is hard to imagine a mechanistic explanation for ANY animal behavior, whether
learned (i.e. encoded in acquired neural connections) or instinctual (i.e. encoded in neural
connections that were programmed by the genes to appear during embryonic development). For me, it is
pretty much a matter of faith, rather than science, to believe that a mechanistic explanation of
behavior will eventually be found.

Jim Menegay said:

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth
with water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please
explain to me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

I read about an even more unusual bird which, when its eggs become too cold, it sits on them to
keep them warm! And then, when they hatch, and the chicks become too hungry, it fills its mouth
with worms and sprinkles the worms over the chicks to keep them nourished! Ain't nature amazing?

Irony aside, it is hard to imagine a mechanistic explanation for ANY animal behavior, whether
learned (i.e. encoded in acquired neural connections) or instinctual (i.e. encoded in neural
connections that were programmed by the genes to appear during embryonic development). For me, it
is pretty much a matter of faith, rather than science, to believe that a mechanistic explanation
of behavior will eventually be found.

If you read "The Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin, you will find many convincing examples of the
origin of complex biological systems. The book is long, and names many species that you many not
have heard of, but it really is an excellent read.

My own opinion about evolution of complex systems, including behaviors, is that there are a huge
number of possible pathways or scenarios by which a particular thing might evolve, so it is not so
unlikely that one of them will occur. Also, the fact that we can't imagine how something evolved
could just be due to our limited imagination, and knowledge. Many people have used the eye as an
example of a complex system for which it is difficult to see how it could have evolved. Darwin gives
a very good, detailed explanation of how the eye probably evolved through a series of small changes,
each of which increased the fitness of its species.

Mitchell Timin

--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal." -
Friedrich Nietzsche

annevolve.sourceforge.netannevolve.sourceforge.netOpen ↗ is what I'm into nowadays. Humans may write to me at this address:
zenguy at shaw dot ca

Andrew Ward said:

"R.Schenck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have recently read about a bird which, when it's eggs become too warm, it fills it's mouth

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

water and then sprinkles the water over the eggs to keep them cool. Could someone please
explain

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me how this behaviour would have been encoded in the dna of the species?

it would be encoded like any other trait/characteristic. sometimes a trait is a stronger beak,
sometimes its avoiding bright light, sometimes its laying your eggs in another animals nest.

also, its important to keep the direction straight, the genetic code would become the behaviour,
not the behaviour existing without encoding and then becomming encoded (at least not in every
conceivable case). so the trait/behaviour in this case is a result of changes in dna.

but it wouldn't be a single simple change, like a change from one base to another.
something complex like that most likely require many many genes and over-lapping functions
of genes to exist.

it certainly would be a good idea to keep eggs cool. If an animal does it that way and thus has
an advantage over other memebers of the same population (and the trait in inheritable ie has a
genetic basis) then the population will with time have more and more members with that trait, if
that is what you were getting at.

Thanks for your reply, I still have trouble grasping this one though, I do understand what you are
saying, however I find it hard to grasp how such a complex behaviour can manifest itself when it
most likely requires as you say "many many genes and over-lapping functions...". For example, if
some of the genes required for this behaviour became available but others were still lacking, would
the existing genes not simply be selected out of the species over time before the fully required
set become available? What I am trying to say is that anything less that the fully developed
behaviour of watering the eggs would be of no use to the species, therefore how does the developing
behaviour stay in the species long enough to fully develop?

yes but what does this involve? it involves many things that the animal can do already. lay eggs,
find water, hold it in its mouth, drop it on the eggs when it is hot. what makes the animal realize
its hot? its a nervous-chemical reaction. its got other functions too. one function is to realize
that its hot.

perhaps one bird started off with just bringing cold water to the nest and spitting it out in the
first place, to cool it off for itself, instead of slapshing around in a birdbath or what not and
attracting predators. that'd be beneficial. so it gets passed on to the offspring birds, and the
population begins to assume this trait as a general characteristic, because these types of birds
are less likely to suffer from predation and heat stroke and thus have more offspring than others.
maybe some of these birds now start dropping the water on the eggs themselves, well that 'd be good
for the bird, cools off the nest, and it cools off the eggs specifically, preventing them from
burning out.

the point is that the steps leading to the trait don't have to be obviously 'progressing' torwards
it. The intermeadite traits just need to be beneficial on their own. if they are, they are kept.

as far as the encoding of behaviour in genes, that in itself is a very detailed subject, and I don't
think its in general been demonstrated to the greatest satisfaction. but the chemicals involved in
'feel good' stimulations are of course chemicals, they are manufactured from the genetic code, so
even 'ethereal' things like emotions and feelings have a hard chemical basis.

with behaviours its even more complex. perhaps the genetic code doesn't obviously produce the
behaviour. but it produces the brain, and the brain is controlling the behaviour. perhaps the cause
of te behaviour ultimately lies in the complex network of cells that is the brain, which produced
just like anyother body part, and may jsut have a statistical tendency to perform this behaviour.
the genes for the brain are inherited, a similar brain is made in the offspring, and similiar
beneficial behaviour results.

i hope this isn't too too vague (too vauge would be ok, but too too vague?)

"Andrew Ward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your reply, I still have trouble grasping this one though, I do understand what you are
saying, however I find it hard to grasp how such a complex behaviour can manifest itself when it
most likely requires as you say "many many genes and over-lapping functions...". For example, if
some of the genes required for this behaviour became available but others were still lacking,
would the existing genes not simply be selected out of the species over time before the fully
required set become available? What I am trying to say is that anything less that the fully
developed behaviour of watering the eggs would be of no use to the species, therefore how does the
developing behaviour stay in the species long enough to fully develop?

This is partly the "what use is half a wing" question, which many books deal with. A complex
behaviour or structure cannot evolve at one stroke, there needs to be a change of small stages, each
of which offer some advantage. In the case of the bird that cools egs with water, I don't know
anything about the species or its relatives, but I can suggest a "just so story". Birds are selected
to drink more water in hot temperatures. They also carry water in their beaks to regurgitate to the
young. Initially the first-born chick is in the nest with unhatched eggs, and the unhatched eggs
benefit by water being accidentally dribbled over them. That behaviour is then modified to dribbling
lots of water over the eggs.

The other problem is, what is the physical basis of the behaviour? It is unlikely that a bird has
any insight into why it is watering eggs, but we cannot absolutely rule it out. Our best theory is
that behaviour is somehow encoded in the neural connections in the bird's brain, which are partly
under genetic control. However there are too few genes to specify every connection. So we are
waiting for some fundamental breakthrough. The idea of a "life-force" or "soul" animating behaviour,
doesn't seem likely, since there is nothing like it in the rest of science (though humans may be a
special case). Since we don't really know, however, you are welcome to put forwards a vitalist
explanation if you can think of some way of testing it.