How are Integrated Headsets so different?

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

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In reading through past postings I have discovered that many people do not like the Integrated
Headsets used by Litespeed and other manufactures.

They are a nuisance. My wife´s Klein Adoit has one. Last year it got really gritty while we were
biking in the US. It was so complicated to fix that we bought a new frame, salvaging as much as
possible of the parts, and getting a Chris King headset for the new frame. It is for good reason
the new Kleins don´t come with integrated headsets.

How can a headset, integrated or otherwise, be so complicated to fix as to necessitate a new frame?
Even if it were so, why not just chuck the headset and get a new one? Mesmells hyperbole in the air.

Quoted message said:

If you want a durable bike by a frame you can spec parts for as you like and get a King headset.
They last for ever and can go for years without the slightest adjustment.

So can $20 generic caged bearing headsets from Taiwan.

Quoted message said:

How can a headset, integrated or otherwise, be so complicated to fix as to necessitate a new
frame? Even if it were so, why not just chuck the headset and get a new one? Mesmells hyperbole in
the air.

You obviosly don´t know a thing a about Klein´s Air Head Mission Control headsets. They are
integrated in the frame, use odd dimensions for the bearings, and have a different dimension for the
steerer that only fits certain Manitou forks specially made for Klein. You can adapt it to normal
dimensions for a couple of hundred dollars by getting certain parts from reset-reset-Open ↗
racing.com/ and then fit a normal headset and just about any 1.1/8" fork.

Of course we could have waited in Salida for parts and tools to arrive, losing half our holiday, but
we chose not to. There is more about it here lowdin.nuSingletrack.htmOpen ↗ By
the way we salvaged the frame too, Absolutebikes fixed it up and sent it to us in Sweden, and we´ll
build it up again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want a durable bike by a frame you can spec parts for as you like

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

get a King headset. They last for ever and can go for years without the slightest adjustment.

So can $20 generic caged bearing headsets from Taiwan.

Hardly, there is a significant difference. King headsets tend to be very durable, in fact they are
often outlast the frame. If you prefer 20 usd headsets you are welcome.

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How can a headset, integrated or otherwise, be so complicated to fix as to necessitate a new
frame? Even if it were so, why not just chuck the headset and get a new one? Mesmells hyperbole
in the air.

You obviosly don´t know a thing a about Klein´s Air Head Mission Control headsets. They are
integrated in the frame, use odd dimensions for the bearings, and have a different dimension for
the steerer that only fits certain Manitou forks specially made for Klein. You can adapt it to
normal dimensions for a couple of hundred dollars by getting certain parts from reset-reset-Open ↗
racing.com/ and then fit a normal headset and just about any 1.1/8" fork.

Of course we could have waited in Salida for parts and tools to arrive, losing half our holiday,
but we chose not to. There is more about it here lowdin.nuSingletrack.htmOpen ↗
By the way we salvaged the frame too, Absolutebikes fixed it up and sent it to us in Sweden, and
we´ll build it up again.

So you got a new frame for convenience. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just confirming the fact
that the frame did not need to be replaced in order to fix the headset. Those are two totally
different issues.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you want a durable bike by a frame you can spec parts for as you like

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

get a King headset. They last for ever and can go for years without the slightest adjustment.

So can $20 generic caged bearing headsets from Taiwan.

Hardly, there is a significant difference. King headsets tend to be very durable, in fact they are
often outlast the frame. If you prefer 20 usd headsets you are welcome.

That reads like a blurb from the Chris King brochure. In any case you missed my point and did not
prove yours: you don't have to pay over a hundred dollars to have a headset that lasts.

Quoted message said:

So you got a new frame for convenience. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just confirming the
fact that the frame did not need to be replaced in order to fix the headset. Those are two totally
different issues.

For convenience? If we wanted to bike without losing bike time it had to replaced. I think
integrated headsets are idiotic contraptions, as spares are not easily available and they restrict
your choice. With a standard
1.1/8" you can choose any headset according to your taste.

Quoted message said:

you don't have to pay over a hundred dollars to have a headset that lasts.

Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had several other headsets, FSAs are
quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but King headsets are noticeably better. They are a luxury I
can afford and enjoy.

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you don't have to pay over a hundred dollars to have a headset that lasts.

Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had several other headsets, FSAs
are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but King headsets are noticeably better. They are a
luxury I can afford and enjoy.

So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets are
"noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell whether
you're using a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label. I can tell
the difference between a headset which uses roller bearings and one which uses ball bearings, but
it's astounding how you can tell between ball bearing headsets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had

several

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other headsets, FSAs are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but King headsets are noticeably
better. They are a luxury I can afford and

enjoy.

Quoted message said:

So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets are
"noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell whether
you're using a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label.

Well, I have a Cane Creek on my Klein Quantum and it is not as smooth as a Chris King. I have FSA on
my chromoly frame I used some years for longer journeys, in the Alps and in South East Asia, it is
impressive but needs occasional adjustment, I have King on my Titus Switchblade and on my Fisher
Supercaliber and the feeling in the steering is superior. The latter intiatially came with a WTB
headset that always had to be adjusted.

You are totally wrong about headsets, it is not either or, it is rather a continuum, in one end you
have headsets that don´t work at all in the other headsets that are perfect, and there is a lot
between. I find King headsets noticeably better than any other I have used. It is a marginal
difference, and I suppose you have to cycle a lot to care for it. I don´t seem to be alone in
holding King in high esteem mtbr.comheadsetOpen ↗

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

"Per Löwdin" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had

several

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other headsets, FSAs are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but King headsets are noticeably
better. They are a luxury I can afford and

enjoy.

Quoted message said:

So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets are
"noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell whether
you're using a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label.

Well, I have a Cane Creek on my Klein Quantum and it is not as smooth as a Chris King. I have FSA
on my chromoly frame I used some years for longer journeys, in the Alps and in South East Asia, it
is impressive but needs occasional adjustment, I have King on my Titus Switchblade and on my

Fisher

Quoted message said:

Supercaliber and the feeling in the steering is superior. The latter intiatially came with a WTB
headset that always had to be adjusted.

You are totally wrong about headsets, it is not either or, it is rather a continuum, in one end
you have headsets that don´t work at all in the

other

Quoted message said:

headsets that are perfect, and there is a lot between. I find King

headsets

Quoted message said:

noticeably better than any other I have used. It is a marginal difference, and I suppose you have
to cycle a lot to care for it. I don´t seem to be alone in holding King in high esteem
mtbr.comheadsetOpen ↗

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

King rules......with a pricetag.

Lou

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had

several

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other headsets, FSAs are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but King headsets are noticeably
better. They are a luxury I can afford and

enjoy.

Quoted message said:

So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets are
"noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell whether
you're using a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label.

Well, I have a Cane Creek on my Klein Quantum and it is not as smooth as a Chris King.

Not as smooth? Either the bearings in your CC don't have enough grease on them, or they are roller
bearings. The seals may also be hampering the "smoothness", but this doesn't have any reflections on
function nor durability.

Quoted message said:

I have FSA on my chromoly frame I used some years for longer journeys, in the Alps and in South
East Asia, it is impressive but needs occasional adjustment,

How can this be anything but an improperly installed headset?

Quoted message said:

You are totally wrong about headsets, it is not either or, it is rather a continuum, in one end
you have headsets that don´t work at all in the other headsets that are perfect, and there is a
lot between.

In terms of what? If you're only referring to "smoothness", that may be the case, but in terms of
the other factors you mentioned, such as durability and function, it's a lot clearer than that.

Quoted message said:

I find King headsets noticeably better than any other I have used. It is a marginal difference,
and I suppose you have to cycle a lot to care for it.

I won't go into a contest of who does more mileage, but suffice to say that if I can't feel
a difference between ball bearing headsets on stationary bikes, I certainly won't feel it
while riding.

Quoted message said:

I don´t seem to be alone in holding King in high esteem mtbr.comheadsetOpen ↗

There are too many things wrong with anonymous free-for-all website reviews such as that, primary
among them is the statistical bias.

I'm sure CK headsets are fine pieces of kit, and I don't disparage their quality. I'm stating though
that one does not have to shell out over a hundred bucks to have a headset that lasts, and which
functions just as well as a King.

You remind me of a proverb my grand mother used to quote. Freely translated: You take what you got
said the old lady and wiped the table with the cat. You made up your mind that king headsets are not
worth the money and you will use any argument.

The headset om my chromoly frame is darn well installed. Needs adjustment once or twice a year.

My crane creek bearings are sealed, don´t need greasing. Since when is less smooth not a variable
that reflects function?

Never heard of anyone moving other headsets to a new bike.

Per

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> skrev i meddelandet
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had

several

Quoted message said:

> other headsets, FSAs are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but

King

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> headsets are noticeably better. They are a luxury I can afford and

enjoy.

Quoted message said:

So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets
are "noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell
whether you're

using

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label.

Well, I have a Cane Creek on my Klein Quantum and it is not as smooth as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chris King.

Not as smooth? Either the bearings in your CC don't have enough grease on them, or they are roller
bearings. The seals may also be hampering the "smoothness", but this doesn't have any reflections
on function nor durability.

Quoted message said:

I have FSA on my chromoly frame I used some years for longer journeys, in the Alps and in South
East Asia, it is impressive but needs occasional adjustment,

How can this be anything but an improperly installed headset?

Quoted message said:

You are totally wrong about headsets, it is not either or, it is rather

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

continuum, in one end you have headsets that don´t work at all in the

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

headsets that are perfect, and there is a lot between.

In terms of what? If you're only referring to "smoothness", that may be the case, but in terms of
the other factors you mentioned, such as durability and function, it's a lot clearer than that.

Quoted message said:

I find King headsets noticeably better than any other I have used. It is a marginal

difference,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I suppose you have to cycle a lot to care for it.

I won't go into a contest of who does more mileage, but suffice to say that if I can't feel
a difference between ball bearing headsets on stationary bikes, I certainly won't feel it
while riding.

Quoted message said:

I don´t seem to be alone in holding King in high esteem

mtbr.comheadsetOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

There are too many things wrong with anonymous free-for-all website reviews such as that, primary
among them is the statistical bias.

I'm sure CK headsets are fine pieces of kit, and I don't disparage their quality. I'm stating
though that one does not have to shell out over a hundred bucks to have a headset that lasts, and
which functions just as well as a King.

"Per Löwdin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You remind me of a proverb my grand mother used to quote. Freely translated: You take what you got
said the old lady and wiped the table with the cat.

[snip non-cat-related matters]

Dear Per,

I have no dog in this fight (my headset is badly indexed), but I do hope that you'll share more of
your grandmother's proverbs. I've already used this one on some outraged cat lovers today.

Speaking of grandmothers and cats . . .

Long ago, a young Portugese woman emigrated to Brazil, leaving her beloved relatives and
pets behind.

One day, she opened a letter from her brother that baldly stated that her cat had fallen off the
roof and died.

Grief-stricken, she wrote back to her brother, saying that he was unspeakably tactless. He should
have broken the news to her gently, letter by letter. First, he should have mentioned that her cat
had taken to climbing up on the roof. By and by, he could have announced that the cat had fallen off
and was injured. Finally, having prepared her for the worst, he could have informed her that the
poor cat had perished.

Her brother's next letter told her that their grandmother had taken to climbing up onto the roof.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Her brother's next letter told her that their grandmother had taken to climbing up onto the roof.

LOL

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

You remind me of a proverb my grand mother used to quote. Freely translated: You take what you got
said the old lady and wiped the table with the cat. You made up your mind that king headsets are
not worth the money and you will use any argument.

I think it's the other way around: you advocate an expensive headset when a cheaper one will do, and
tried to justify it afterwards. I have no trouble with that, but let it be known that a CK (and a
hundred bucks) is not the only recourse for a smooth, lasting headset.

I have empirical evidence that non-Chris King headsets can work just as well; as far as durability
goes, that remains to be seen but these have lasted many thousands of kms so far. What do you base
your CK longevity on?

Quoted message said:

The headset om my chromoly frame is darn well installed. Needs adjustment once or twice a year.

It is what it is, but does that headset even represent any other headset available in that price
range? Is the only alternative then to go to a Chris King? I think not.

Quoted message said:

My crane creek bearings are sealed, don´t need greasing. Since when is less smooth not a variable
that reflects function?

There you go, your Cane Creek is just as good as your Chris King. Why did you pay USD 100 for a CK?

If your headset allows you to turn your bike, it's functioning. Smoothness doesn't affect function,
unless it prevents you from moving your handlebar. Of course smooth operation is desirable, but you
make it seem as if all other headsets are rough.

Quoted message said:

Never heard of anyone moving other headsets to a new bike.

You don't know many cyclists with failed frames, if that's the case, or you're deaf to other
people's experiences.

Quoted message said:

Per

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> skrev i meddelandet
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Per Löwdin:

Quoted message said:

> > Sure you can get drunk on anything: all wines are wines. I have had
several
> > other headsets, FSAs are quite OK, even after a lot of miles, but

King

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > headsets are noticeably better. They are a luxury I can afford and
enjoy.
>
> So there you have it, it's a luxury. I'm confounded by your claim, however, that CK headsets
> are "noticeably better". Either headsets work, or they don't. I'm curious how you can tell
> whether you're

using

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> a Cane Creek, FSA, YST, or Chris King headset without looking at the label.

Well, I have a Cane Creek on my Klein Quantum and it is not as smooth as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chris King.

Not as smooth? Either the bearings in your CC don't have enough grease on them, or they are
roller bearings. The seals may also be hampering the "smoothness", but this doesn't have any
reflections on function nor durability.

Quoted message said:

I have FSA on my chromoly frame I used some years for longer journeys, in the Alps and in
South East Asia, it is impressive but needs occasional adjustment,

How can this be anything but an improperly installed headset?

Quoted message said:

You are totally wrong about headsets, it is not either or, it is rather

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

continuum, in one end you have headsets that don´t work at all in the

other

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

headsets that are perfect, and there is a lot between.

In terms of what? If you're only referring to "smoothness", that may be the case, but in
terms of the other factors you mentioned, such as durability and function, it's a lot clearer
than that.

Quoted message said:

I find King headsets noticeably better than any other I have used. It is a marginal

difference,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I suppose you have to cycle a lot to care for it.

I won't go into a contest of who does more mileage, but suffice to say that if I can't feel a
difference between ball bearing headsets on stationary bikes, I certainly won't feel it while
riding.

Quoted message said:

I don´t seem to be alone in holding King in high esteem

mtbr.comheadsetOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

There are too many things wrong with anonymous free-for-all website reviews such as that,
primary among them is the statistical bias.

I'm sure CK headsets are fine pieces of kit, and I don't disparage their quality. I'm stating
though that one does not have to shell out over a hundred bucks to have a headset that lasts,
and which functions just as well as a King.

On 9 Feb 2004 13:04:43 -0800, [email hidden] (Carl Fogel)

Quoted message said:

I have no dog in this fight (my headset is badly indexed),

I'm so tired, I'm unable to resist this corny one:

"Indexed shifting? Naw, I've got indexed steering..."
--
Rick Onanian