Recovery food & drink

3 parts whiskey to one part glass.

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate of
re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence of
calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a long
period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less "aggression".
I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a full meal is
consumed as an alternative.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:

**Slim-Fast Smoothie**

1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
packets Equal sweetener (optional)

Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.

Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g

According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
particular recipe seems to hit the mark.

Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?

-Phil

Sam said:

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so.

Isn't the "or so" that most of us bump into when we run daily.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would temper

Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a full meal is consumed as an
alternative.

But Sam, when Phil adds the banana and the skim milk to the slimfast isn't that close to a meal?

Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet tooth?
I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. 🙂

FWIW, I do Slimfast during and after a long run when I can't pass Go and get to the restaurant for a
full brunch but I take mine straight up! 😉

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

still drying time now for mine for hornstag sumacc. book said for tea it is good all winter. I did a
pot of black walnuts., Forgot to remove outter layer of nuts at fall end. very time and got black
walnut stain in water base from removeing layers of nut. point while hammer outer shell broke into
one of the nutinner shell.one looks like a nut shell. was not a nut. just a hard look alike in a
hollow space inners. so after boiling for 20 minutes the prsure cooker pot of black wallnuts , again
after open a black wallnut. Bam a full inner nut. boiling makes nut bam into a full eatting wallnut.
Not much nut in a black wallnut. Gave to mom. more for use as a spice. Got my twigs and bark and
inners some of bark of North east white birch tree. Last year ice storm and power outage kill lots
of these trees here. most just stand as a solid trunk and main branch. so too say bark is plenty.
drying time.down trees from icestorm. sumacc is very sweet taste tea. black wallnut all protein. and
birch they said something to cure all aliments. can be made into a beer too. Nature way. soon roots
of cattails and stems too. at early spring.and birch tree sap. for bee you not has to mix a 100 to 1
ratio for syrup. just boil your 2 1/2 gallons of sap, trowe in twigs and inner redf peal of outer
birch bark. cool/ wait 1 week/ bottle. wait 3 weeks in bottle. or jar. yum yum. if get into nature
wilds... make sure you give drying cure time before you jump into to eat. alto boil alto to get rid
of bacterea and any other microbe little buggers. I am not a pro. I am learning my self. so research
if you choice too. Indian food. natures best. God speed. I try a run. not to long but leg is good.
today well try again. been since Aug of 2002 . pop my knee and I have not run. just bike ride. I am
nuts. my first jog I ran with 39 m.p.h. winds on ice and snow and to say. as only way I could run
with brakes on and I still was slow. Maybe God ment me to be slow. my ball of foot not right from al
the bike rides. I could go all day not probe. jst not running/ calfs so hard... 48 year old male who
wants to do marathons again soon. I don't care if I ever get a job. dad said I has to call someone
before I get off on why I can t get work. maybe not ready yet. I well pick up 10 cent cans rest of
my life if needed. Nobody wants me. so I say. run bike. cool. and alto sleep rest. Funny legs are
allways good later. butt can get real stiff and calfs after first mile run was to say really hard.
and sore.I try for so long and so hard to find work an all I ot was slap down to be a bum. I know I
know. sorry. I could walk all day no probe. butt once started running sore calfs. recovere foodis my
10 cent cans pick up alond roads . most dirt roads in fields and woods. the days food from rideing
bike to store and back. closes one is 5 miles. I had to do 25 miles to get 5 dollors because of ice
rain snow . maybe snow covers cans or others out there. I don't care. Not my roads. snow storm. By
all Lowtuc. I don't care, be whatever or be me.or not. You can't hurt me no more. because I live and
feed myself with out a job. or money. I hae not been in a tore o shoping mall or city in over a
year. and figure I spent 20 bucks for gs since the fall. total. butt then I don'tcare. I ride a
bike. time for a run with a day pack to pick up a dollor or so of 10 cent cans. or not. food is
food. when one can get it. I liveing with no job. see........... god speed everyone.

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. 🙂

Check the recipe. I'm adding lots of ice to make the smoothie just right. It makes it very thick,
like a milk shake. It would be similar to adding 1 part slim fast to 3 parts water. Thereforem it is
diluting the taste a good bit.

-Phil

Phil M. said:

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. 🙂

Check the recipe. I'm adding lots of ice to make the smoothie just right. It makes it very thick,
like a milk shake. It would be similar to adding 1 part slim fast to 3 parts water. Thereforem it
is diluting the taste a good bit.

-Phil

why so many chemicals? why not use natural organic honey and/or brown sugar?

You gotta stick to nature! Say no to cancer.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could
also be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I
try to make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO
solution. I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a
recovery drink.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate
of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence
of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a long
period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less
"aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a
full meal is consumed as an alternative.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:

**Slim-Fast Smoothie**

1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
packets Equal sweetener (optional)

Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.

Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g

According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
particular recipe seems to hit the mark.

Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?

-Phil

MJuric wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote:

What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could also
be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I try to
make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO solution.
I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a recovery drink.

~Matt

Oh yes. I take in plenty of protein. But not imediatley after an endurance effort. I start out my
day with 80 grams of oatmeal or cold ceral with 32 grams of whey powder mixed in. In the evening
I'll make a smoothie with either orange juice or skim milk mixed with 32 grams of whey powder.

-Phil

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate
of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence
of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a
long period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less
"aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a
full meal is consumed as an alternative.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:

**Slim-Fast Smoothie**

1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
packets Equal sweetener (optional)

Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.

Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g

According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
particular recipe seems to hit the mark.

Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?

-Phil

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost

since

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you will lose some to increased urine production), carbohydrates (for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism), electolytes (sodium mainly

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really
get the CHO in all that fast unless you will

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

exercising in the next 12 hours or so.

Isn't the "or so" that most of us bump into when we run daily.

if you run daily at the same time every day, how long is it between the end of the run and the
start of the next run? For most people that is going to be 20+ hours. Figuring 8 hours of
sleep and that still gives you 12 hours to replace muscle glycogen; muscle glycogen synthesis
rate is about 7% normally (outside of the first couple of hours or less) so one cen replenish
muscle glycogen stores over time since few people are going to deplete muscle glycogen stores
when they exercise. Just a little realism into what can become hysteria.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would temper

Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a

full

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

meal is consumed as an alternative.

But Sam, when Phil adds the banana and the skim milk to the slimfast isn't that close to a meal?

Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. 🙂

FWIW, I do Slimfast during and after a long run when I can't pass Go and get to the restaurant for
a full brunch but I take mine straight up! 😉

Slimfast DURING a run, yuck--gotta admit I never tried it, but yuck. Although I was talking to
a fellow over the weekend who does ultra-endurance bike events (24 hour solo MTB) and he
blends up spaghetti so that it fits in a water bottle. That got a collective yuck and note to
myself not to mix my water bottles with his.

Personally I would not consider slimfast, banana and skim milk to be a "meal" but it
probably has sufficient CHO and protein for a start on the process.

Quoted message said:

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism and
tissue repair. However, protein's role in muscle glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and
not fully supported by the literature.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MJuric wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote:

What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could
also be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I try
to make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO
solution. I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a recovery
drink.

~Matt

Oh yes. I take in plenty of protein. But not imediatley after an endurance effort. I start out my
day with 80 grams of oatmeal or cold ceral with 32 grams of whey powder mixed in. In the evening
I'll make a smoothie with either orange juice or skim milk mixed with 32 grams of whey powder.

-Phil

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really
get the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the
rate of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the
presence of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you
have a long period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with
less "aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR
until a full meal is consumed as an alternative.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery
> drinks. Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:
>
> **Slim-Fast Smoothie**
>
> 1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
> packets Equal sweetener (optional)
>
> Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one
> serving.
>
> Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g
>
> According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
> resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
> after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
> particular recipe seems to hit the mark.
>
> Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?
>
> -Phil

Sam said:

There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism and
tissue repair. However, protein's role in muscle glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and
not fully supported by the literature.

Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research was
done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own research -
not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results. Admittedly, not
the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-examples. I
recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed. I was just
curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary literature
than I do. Thanks.

AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
literature than I do. Thanks.

Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.

I get this question a lot.

The early research had two problems:

1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
synthesis rate.
2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
taken in under both methods).

I argued with Ed Burke about this on occasion saying that the literature did not support that 4:1
was any better than 5:0 in terms of glycogen; however, I agreed that protein is important for other
reasons. Another thought I have heard recently is that as little as 20 g of protein regardless of
CHO will do a great job and that more than that might not be necessary.

Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can. Ed did have a
stake in Endurox but he really believed that it was superior. I miss him a lot (we saw each other
every couple of weeks and rode together on occasion).

While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
during normal exercise is also a bit overblown. The claims made by Accelerade for instance are based
on one study that I am not sure has been published except in abstract form. Even in that case the
problem was the design of the performance protocol.

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:6xK_b.84687$hR.1718247@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism
and tissue repair. However, protein's role in

muscle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and not fully supported by

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

literature.

Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
literature than I do. Thanks.

AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"jim gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be
absorbed. I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude
more primary literature than I do. Thanks.

Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.

The only really educated opinion over that I would trust (outside of my own posts) would be those by
Andy Coggan.

Sam said:

I get this question a lot.

The early research had two problems:

1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
synthesis rate.
2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

duh. Thanks for this insight. Like I said, I hadn't read the original literature. OTOH, from a
researcher's perspective, I can see why they may have chosen that hypothesis to test. Appropriate
controls and/or comparisons are sometimes the most difficult thing to figure out.

Quoted message said:

Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
taken in under both methods).

Thanks. I'll see if I can track down the article.

Quoted message said:

Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can.

I agree. I use the recovery drink (slimfast) as something to hold me over until I can get to real
food. After a workout or race, I may be 1/2 hr to almost 2 hr driving home if I have to make any
stops along the way (unless I'm running from my house). If at home, I just use milk until I get
dinner cooked.

Quoted message said:

While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.

Are you talking for "short" events, like less than, say, 4 hrs, or are you including ultras in here
also, like 10-24 hrs and more. I think some of the drinks intended for longer events incorporate
protein (sometimes specific amino acids) and fat for specific reasons. Given the assortment of
drinks out there, there's obviously various opinions on what works 😉

One of the reasons I've been curious about some of this stuff, aside from the obvious training
issues, is that some of the cold-weather training (like subzero F for multiple hours, days)
literature that I've been reading suggests there's a number of physiological differences in cold
temperatures, including variation in relative amounts of substrates used. I'm just trying to mesh
knowledge at normal temperatures with the cold weather stuff. Since my primary source on cold-
weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track down more current information as well
as the original studies.

I appreciate you taking the time to provide the informative answers that you have.

Thanks

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

jim gravity said:

Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.

Thanks. I'll take a look at those. I saw Sam's hint at who the "educated opinions" are in
those threads.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:26:35 GMT, "Sam" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I get this question a lot.

The early research had two problems:

1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-synthesis
rate.
2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
taken in under both methods).

I argued with Ed Burke about this on occasion saying that the literature did not support that 4:1
was any better than 5:0 in terms of glycogen; however, I agreed that protein is important for other
reasons. Another thought I have heard recently is that as little as 20 g of protein regardless of
CHO will do a great job and that more than that might not be necessary.

Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can. Ed did have a
stake in Endurox but he really believed that it was superior. I miss him a lot (we saw each other
every couple of weeks and rode together on occasion).

While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.

I personally can't do "protein" during a workout. Acclerade in any concentration that allows a
decent income of CHO always made me sick. I tried Endurox as a "hydration" drink only once and
nearly couldn't make it back home. I also tried protein powder, whey, mixed with other various
drinks with the same "intestinal fortitude" issues.

I pretty much use protein as a recover only. I think the main benefit for me is that if I were to do
an analysis of my overall diet I suspect I'd be on the low end of where I should be for protein
intake. The additional 20g I put in my recovery drinks may just boost me up to were I should be with
a healthier overall diet.

Thanks for the info.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

The claims made by Accelerade for instance are based on one study that I am not sure has been
published except in abstract form. Even in that case the problem was the design of the performance
protocol.

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:6xK_b.84687$hR.1718247@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism
and tissue repair. However, protein's role in

muscle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and not fully supported by

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

literature.

Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
literature than I do. Thanks.

AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

I get this question a lot.

The early research had two problems:

1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
synthesis rate.
2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO

(no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

protein). The problem here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

duh. Thanks for this insight. Like I said, I hadn't read the original literature. OTOH, from a
researcher's perspective, I can see why they may have chosen that hypothesis to test. Appropriate
controls and/or comparisons are sometimes the most difficult thing to figure out.

Quoted message said:

Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not
increase glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of
energy was taken in under both methods).

Thanks. I'll see if I can track down the article.

Quoted message said:

Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something

out

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of a can.

I agree. I use the recovery drink (slimfast) as something to hold me over until I can get to real
food. After a workout or race, I may be 1/2 hr to almost 2 hr driving home if I have to make any
stops along the way (unless I'm running from my house). If at home, I just use milk until I get
dinner cooked.

Quoted message said:

While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to

sport

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Quoted message said:

drinks for benefits during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.

Are you talking for "short" events, like less than, say, 4 hrs, or are you including ultras in
here also, like 10-24 hrs and more. I think some of the drinks intended for longer events
incorporate protein (sometimes specific amino acids) and fat for specific reasons. Given the
assortment of drinks out there, there's obviously various opinions on what works 😉

I was not considering ultras where the % of energy from protein is likely to be higher.

Quoted message said:

One of the reasons I've been curious about some of this stuff, aside from the obvious training
issues, is that some of the cold-weather training (like subzero F for multiple hours, days)
literature that I've been reading suggests there's a number of physiological differences in cold
temperatures, including variation in relative amounts of substrates used. I'm just trying to mesh
knowledge at normal temperatures with the cold weather stuff. Since my primary source on cold-
weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track down more current information as
well as the original studies.

Cold seems to shift to more CHO use. I have no idea why unless it is shivering that causes
an increase.

Quoted message said:

I appreciate you taking the time to provide the informative answers that you have.

Thanks

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Sam said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message news:4TZ_b.40850$aH3.1278616@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Quoted message said:

Sam wrote:

Since my primary source on cold-weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track
down more current information as well as the original studies.

Cold seems to shift to more CHO use. I have no idea why unless it is shivering that causes
an increase.

Actually, I've seen some indication of eating more carbs but another suggests more fat utilization,
but I'm tracking down original papers. I was able to track down some e-mail addresses of authors and
will e-mail them sometime if I can't find what I'm looking for. It's peak long-distance racing
season up here right now (runners, skiers, mt bikers, dogs), so many researchers are likely busy
collecting more data, and I wanted to wait until after the races in a month. When the rivers are
frozen and ground is snow covered, it's a lot easier to have long distance races.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope