Mutant Road Bikes

vic said:

\

Enough already: I think we get the picture by now.

[translation] I succumb to buying crappy products designed
by marketing departments.

Greg

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:13:08 GMT, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

vic said:

\

Enough already: I think we get the picture by now.

[translation] I succumb to buying crappy products designed
by marketing departments.

Greg

I got nothing against any particular style o'bike,
but I rile in the presence of condescension & smugness.

Vic.

"Rocketman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TVM2c.197301$jk2.708008@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

It is rather ridiculous to add 3 lbs to your bike's weight
to get discs, unless you're doing fully-loaded Alpine
touring. Also, I don't think I want that kind of stopping
power when riding drop handlebars, especially in a pace
line. It's hard enough to modulate side pulls "just so"
when riding in a group at high speeds, wheel to wheel.
With discs, one false flick of the brake finger and it's
an instant bloody pile-up.

The disc brake on my mountain bike is extremely well
modulated.

I would prefer a disc on the front of my road bike too.
I ride hills, and I ride in the rain (although the
rainy season may have just ended), and I sure
appreciate the better braking than I get from wet rim
brakes on steep descents.

On a recent ride I had my road bike (with 26mm road tires)
in the mud. A disc would have been nice there too.

For a fair-weather road training/racing bike, discs might be
silly, but for a practical bike they're outstanding.

David

Dave Mayer said:

I've observed a weird new species of road bike around on my
daily commute and weekend rides. These bikes must be new as
they have all the latest gimmicks and are ridden by guys in
their 20's. Symptoms:

Hmm...I'm a guy in my 20's...

Quoted message said:

- Compact geometry with a steeply sloping toptube leaving a
whole bunch of seatpost exposed.
- Oversized alu frame with a garish paint job
- Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing
- Drop bars with a treadless stem mounted upside down to
give lots of rise.

These items describe one of my bikes, somewhat.

Compact, bright yellow alu frame with oversized downtube:
Why should I care if it's compact? Why should I care if the
tube is oversized? Bright yellow may be good for being seen
in traffic. Still, as a non-fan of yellow, it wasn't my
first choice.

Triple crank giving me a low gear of 30x27: Is that
ridiculous? I'm 210 pounds, and usually ride farther than
I'm in shape for; I can at least crawl uphill to my house
when I'm bonked and dead trying to finish without walking.

Drop bars with a threadless stem mounted _right_side_up_
giving lots of rise: My handlebar is still lower than my
saddle. My short legs and long torso put lots of weight on
my hands. Compact+"zero stack" gimmick headset=extremely low
handlebar Why do you suppose it's necessary for us amateurs
to crunch into the same positions used by professionals in
time trials?

Quoted message said:

- Fattish tires with treads

Nope. 700x23c 100% slick.

Quoted message said:

- Disk brakes?!?

There are functional reasons that one might prefer disc
brakes. I wouldn't spend the weight or money on them for my
road biking purposes, but it may be worth it to some. My
next mountain bike will probably have them.

Quoted message said:

- Low spoke count wheels.

My front wheel is slightly-gimmicky in that it's radially
laced, but not low spoke count. My rear is average.

I'm surprised they didn't all have deep-V aero rims too,
from your description. I don't...but I'm not them. The 'semi-
aero' very-shallow-V Mavic CXP-21 rims on my bike roll fine,
despite their possible gimmickry.

Quoted message said:

Whats up with this? I invariably come up on these guys fast
and see them struggling with a seat postion 6" too low
(must be converted mountain bikers). Their high stems put
their bars above the level of the seat making the bike look
like a hybrid.

Must be ignorant. You might be a nice guy and notify them
that they will get greater power from a higher saddle. Of
course, then their bars would be closer to (or below) the
saddle, and you'd have one less thing to write about.

Quoted message said:

Despite the low seat position, their seatposts are bending
1" back and forth as

I expected my carbon fiber aero seatpost to do this under my
210 pounds, but I haven't noticed it. Nobody with whom I've
ridden has remarked anything to this effect, either. I also
expected it to break within a few rides, but it hasn't done
that either.

Quoted message said:

they thrash along at a 40rpm cadence (yep: mountain
bikers).

Maybe their bodies are different from yours. I last much
longer at lower cadences, except in certain situations
(notably, climbing while tired). I tried to do the
recommended 80 rpm, and struggled for a few years before I
forgot to think about it one day and found myself cruising
at 20 mph.

Also, I find that off-road, I do better with a higher
average cadence, so your mountain biker low rpm theory may
be broken.

Quoted message said:

I draft them for about 5 seconds until I get bored of
watching their boat-anchor brake calipers dragging on the
disks. Then I drop them.

So, they're incompetent riders, incompetent shoppers, and
incompetent at maintaining their bikes too? My god! These
people are evil. You ought to do something about getting
them off the road. Maybe Fabrizio can help you organize
something. Don't even THINK about helping them.

Quoted message said:

Is this the future? Have I died and gone to hell?

If that constitutes hell for you, then I hope you burn
well. The rest of us will concentrate on riding while we're
on our bikes.

In fact, I'm slow. You would probably drop me like a rock.
But it's not the bike, it's me. Due to many factors, most
of which involve laziness, I haven't ridden much all
winter; barely at all. When I stop making excuses and get
out and enjoy the ride, I'll still never catch up to many
riders...and that's okay. I enjoy my speed well enough,
and as I get in better shape, I'll enjoy the additional
speed too.

BTW, I'm no faster on my steel, non-gimmicky, non-compact,
non-garish, non-oversized-tubing, threaded HS, but still
triple bike. A bit slower, actually, due _partly_ to some
other older technologies. The effective geometry, as far as
body contact points, is the same, even with the '7'-shaped
stem and barely exposed seatpost.

My gimmicky bike: 2001 Giant TCR2:
tinyurl.comjwebOpen ↗
+ some modifications for me: added high-rise stem, triple
crank, egg beater pedals

My non-gimmicky bike mentioned above: Semi-unidentified
older Peugeot, which I _think_ is a PBN 13 as shown here:
home.wanadoo.nl1983 3.jpgOpen ↗ but a
different year. In fact, I have a photo of it:
members.cox.netPeugeot.JPGOpen ↗ (I've since
added clipless pedals)

So, what is it about all those gimmicky items that
bothers you?
--
Rick Onanian

"scituatejohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Mayer said:

- Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing

Quoted message said:

These bikes have a 12-25 in the back with a 30-42-52 in
the front. What

is ridiculously low about that?

Quoted message said:

The bikes I'm talking about feature a 34 tooth rear cog with
a mountain bike rear derailleur. You should be able to climb
walls with that setup.

I ran into another anomaly on the commute today. A full-
suspension Rocky Mountain MTB with all the cliff hucking and
log riding accoutrements like a riser bar and a nard guard.
The wheels featured 8" disk brakes, and the downhill rims
were fitted with 1.5" slicks. After following this fellow
for a few seconds I got seasick watching the suspension bob.

Dave Mayer said:

"scituatejohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Mayer said:

- Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing

Quoted message said:

These bikes have a 12-25 in the back with a 30-42-52 in
the front. What

is ridiculously low about that?

The bikes I'm talking about feature a 34 tooth rear cog
with a mountain bike rear derailleur. You should be able
to climb walls with that setup.

I ran into another anomaly on the commute today. A full-
suspension Rocky Mountain MTB with all the cliff hucking
and log riding accoutrements like a riser bar and a nard
guard. The wheels featured 8" disk brakes, and the
downhill rims were fitted with 1.5" slicks. After
following this fellow for a few seconds I got seasick
watching the suspension bob.

He may have only one bike. At least he's riding.

Greg

"vic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 19:12:13 GMT, "Dave Mayer"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

I'll bite, but I'll offer a simultaneous translation for
the un-anointed.

I think I got flamed here. Rebuttal:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Compact geometry with a steeply sloping toptube leaving
a whole bunch

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seatpost exposed.

[translation] I ride a classic steel frame which mashes my
balls if I try to stand over it.

Not a problem with a properly designed traditional frame.
Except if your balls drop 6".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Fattish tires with treads

[translation] I like 20-23mm tyres, possibly tubs.

23's: of course. Tubulars: of course. People are given
in life the choice between tubs and clinchers. So why
would someone spend their time not riding on Clement
Strada 66 tubulars?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Oversized alu frame with a garish paint job

[translation] I ride a classic steel frame which is stove
enameled in muted tones.

Guilty as charged.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing

[translation] I ride a classic steel bike with a campy
double up front.

Life is a choice between Campagnolo or not Campagnolo. You
only live once. Ride Campagnolo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Drop bars with a treadless stem mounted upside down to
give lots of

rise.

Quoted message said:

[translation] I ride a classic steel bike with the bars
set so low my nose scrapes on the front tyre. It worked
for Merckx after all!

Heh.. Watcha you mouth... Eddy is God. The greatest
for all time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Disk brakes?!?

[translation] I ride a classic steel frame fitted with long-
drop side pull brakes.

Quoted message said:

- Low spoke count wheels.

[translation] I bought my tyres off a tandem enthusiast.
On a clear day you can see some daylight between my
spokes..

Enough already: I think we get the picture by now.

Quoted message said:

Whats up with this? I invariably come up on these guys
fast and see them struggling with a seat postion 6" too
low (must be converted mountain bikers). Their high stems
put their bars above the level of the seat

making

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bike look like a hybrid. Despite the low seat
position, their

seatposts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are bending 1" back and forth as they thrash along at a
40rpm cadence

(yep:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mountain bikers). I draft them for about 5 seconds until
I get bored of watching their boat-anchor brake calipers
dragging on the disks. Then I drop them.

What mighty victories! The stout old ladies and cripples
must be left choking in your dust!

Sure.. these are guys in their 20's who ride every day. Some
of them display bike courier plates for gods sake. The point
I'm trying to make here is that these bikes and presumably
the advice from the stores that they got them from is so bad
that it is really hurting their riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this the future? Have I died and gone to hell?

If so, it's a hell of your own making, and you're
welcome to it.

Nope: just hell responding to this post.

(Jeff Starr) said:

Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The older guys have money, and buy bikes, which creates
demand. The bikes that old guys buy is what's generally
available. So young guys buy them.

At least, the ones who aren't so young and so under-
resourced that they do their first few miles on beaters
plucked from used shops or pawnshops or other such
venues.

-Luigi

Hi, based on that theory, and assuming that I qualify as an
older guy, at 49, then the younger guys should all be
riding traditional styled, steel framed road bikes.
Certainly nothing compact. Of course I really don't fit the
above profile, as I don't have money. I either have to save
up or go into debt for my biking needs. Although I am a set
of wheels away from being set, for quite a while. Life is
Good! Jeff

I don't know. I'm just a young guy on a very limited cycling
budget. I don't see a lot of twentysomething roadies near
me. The roadies all look to be in their early thirties (bar
one kid in Squadra Coppi colours who must be in high school
or just out of it).

I should have noted that most young guys will spend dosh for
new things--nobody seems to want to buy things second-hand
in this culture. I myself fell (fall?) into the other
category; my 'serious' bike was a used Raleigh that was
nearly as old as me.

-Luigi

In article <[email hidden]>,

G.T. said:

Dave Mayer said:

"scituatejohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Mayer wrote:
> - Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing

>These bikes have a 12-25 in the back with a 30-42-52 in
>the front. What

is ridiculously low about that?

The bikes I'm talking about feature a 34 tooth rear cog
with a mountain bike rear derailleur. You should be able
to climb walls with that setup.

I ran into another anomaly on the commute today. A full-
suspension Rocky Mountain MTB with all the cliff hucking
and log riding accoutrements like a riser bar and a nard
guard. The wheels featured 8" disk brakes, and the
downhill rims were fitted with 1.5" slicks. After
following this fellow for a few seconds I got seasick
watching the suspension bob.

He may have only one bike. At least he's riding.

Could also be set up for urban stunting, though most of
those riders use hardtails.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>,

(whitfit) said:

Quoted message said:

- Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing

Quoted message said:

as they thrash along at a 40rpm cadence

How can you criticize for low gearing and too low a
cadence in the same rant?

He's not the one doing the gear selection.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>,

Luigi de Guzman said:

Dave Mayer said:

I've observed a weird new species of road bike around on
my daily commute and weekend rides. These bikes must be
new as they have all the latest gimmicks and are ridden
by guys in their 20's. Symptoms:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Their high stems put their bars above the level of the
seat making the bike look like a hybrid. Despite the low
seat position, their seatposts are bending 1" back and
forth as they thrash along at a 40rpm cadence (yep:
mountain bikers). I draft them for about 5 seconds until
I get bored of watching their boat-anchor brake calipers
dragging on the disks. Then I drop them.

You're exaggerating seatpost flex, or those guys are using
bendy straws as seatposts.

If you take pleasure dropping obvious novices, I have
a few helpless baby seals that you might lwant to club
to death.

-Luigi

If you knew how slow Dave was, you wouldn't say such things.

I think Dave's point is that these bikes are pretty
expensive, and pretty dysfunctional. Here's my benchmark: is
it more effective than my Bianchi? That's a pretty low bar,
since it's a $10 bike.

But then, I think everybody should commute to work on road
bikes with dual-pivot brakes and indexed 6v rear clusters.
Triple fronts permissible for the infirm.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, "G.T."

Quoted message said:

Dave Mayer said:

"scituatejohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>Dave Mayer wrote:
> > - Triple crankset with ridiculously low gearing
>
>
>
>>These bikes have a 12-25 in the back with a 30-42-52 in
>>the front. What

is ridiculously low about that?

The bikes I'm talking about feature a 34 tooth rear cog
with a mountain bike rear derailleur. You should be able
to climb walls with that setup.

I ran into another anomaly on the commute today. A full-
suspension Rocky Mountain MTB with all the cliff hucking
and log riding accoutrements like a riser bar and a nard
guard. The wheels featured 8" disk brakes, and the
downhill rims were fitted with 1.5" slicks. After
following this fellow for a few seconds I got seasick
watching the suspension bob.

He may have only one bike. At least he's riding.

Could also be set up for urban stunting, though most of
those riders use hardtails.

And bigger slicks.

Greg

In rec.bicycles.misc Ryan Cousineau said:

But then, I think everybody should commute to work on road
bikes with dual-pivot brakes and indexed 6v rear clusters.
Triple fronts permissible for the infirm.

commuting? bah! gears are permissible for the infirm.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure.. these are guys in their 20's who ride every day.
Some of them display bike courier plates for gods sake. The
point I'm trying to make here is that these bikes and
presumably the advice from the stores that they got them
from is so bad that it is really hurting their riding.

Well, that's a fair-ish criticism, but bear in mind that if
there's no start line and agreed start time it ain't a race.
Sticking courier plates on, however, is a bit like a fighter
ace displaying the decals for his 5+ kills on the side of he
cockpit - it claims a certain ability If you don't really
have that ability, you end up looking foolish.

An adjunct to your description of the sub-optimal bike
wierdness:

About 1 wednseday morning in 2 or 3, I'l meet what looks
like a shop-sponsored team of cyclists who take a route that
coincides with my route to work. They're fully tricked out,
carbon treks, matching outfits, track stands at red lights,
the whole deal.

There's a minor hill about 3/4, maybe 1 mile long along the
route and without fail I will leave these guys standing on
that ascent and never see 'em again.(And they do climb it,
as some Weds. mornings they're milling around in a car park
just over he crest).

Them lightweight bikes with the low bars and high saddles
can't be much good.

Of course, I'm well aware that it's probably a training
ride, and they'll still be clipping along at the same pace
25-30 miles down the road, with a few playful sprints
thrown in for good measure. If they wanted to, these fit 20
year olds could probably pull away from me at a pace that
I'd have to check my feet to see if they were still turning
the pedals!

Best,

Vic

Quoted message said:

downhill rims were fitted with 1.5" slicks. After
following this fellow

for

Quoted message said:

a few seconds I got seasick watching the suspension bob.

Wow, you're so superior to everybody!

There, you've gotten what you've wanted, lol.

Phil

Quoted message said:

I got nothing against any particular style o'bike,
but I rile in the presence of condescension & smugness.

Thanks dude... that's what I was thinking, too. Good first
reply put in better words than I could have.

Phil

vic said:

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:13:08 GMT, "G.T."
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[translation] I succumb to buying crappy products designed
by marketing departments.

I got nothing against any particular style o'bike,
but I rile in the presence of condescension & smugness.

I think on r.b.tech we might more reasonably rile in the
presence of poorly designed equipment...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill
the tomato!

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 16:28:48 -0800, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

For various reasons, all three of those brands are
reasonably common in the part of the world Dave lives in.
Kona has its head office just over the US border outside of
Greater Vancouver, and the Dr. Dew is one of the better-
known fitness bikes, avec discs.

"avec disques," ne c'est pas?

(man, my French is really in awful shape!)

Quoted message said:

It makes more sense in Vancouver, where rain is a
significant issue, and rain is a situation (while the fans
of rim brakes don't like to admit
it) where discs provide more consistent performance than
rim brakes.

I rode single-pivot sidepulls with ancient pads in the rain
in London. You learn to factor in the greater stopping
distance, for sure...!

Quoted message said:

3 pounds is a ridiculous guess, unless you're planning to
transplant something from a KX250. Avid lists its Juicy 7
disc system at 385g (picked at random as the first disc
weight I could find), or well under a pound. Given that
Avid single-digit 7 V-brakes weigh in at 180g (I'm
discounting the Ti version's 15g advantage for being
stupid), that suggests a total disc weight penalty of
about 200g, or less than a half-pound. This costs nobody
nothing, unless you're a Cat 1 hillclimber, and you're in
a close one.

Not to mention the weight you're no longer carrying in
your pocket! I can't afford discs under any circumstance
these days....

Quoted message said:

As for the sensitivity of discs, you're suggesting an issue
which is down to either a rider with insufficient skill, or
a brake system set up badly. Now that I think about it, I'd
be pretty choked if my sidepulls _didn't_ offer enough
performance to cause a peloton pile-up with a flick of a
finger. They do, and I resolve the issue by using my brakes
properly.

Nothing special, just RSX dual pivots on the front of both
road bikes,

And on the rear?

-Luigi

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Reuteler said:

In rec.bicycles.misc Ryan Cousineau

Quoted message said:

But then, I think everybody should commute to work on
road bikes with dual-pivot brakes and indexed 6v rear
clusters. Triple fronts permissible for the infirm.

commuting? bah! gears are permissible for the infirm.

Or those of us with hills on our route. I ride a short
commute from sea level to sea level, but there's a 300'
elevation gain in the middle. I don't need a triple to climb
the 1 km of 6-10% grade on the way to work, but I do need
the bottom half of the double. This is on a rack-&-bag
commuter which is normally carrying a complete change of
clothes, lunch, road tools, and a few other bits.

Used to need the triple,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

Or those of us with hills on our route.

please. my commute climbs about 10m in 150m .. you could
take breaks.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]