28 Spoke Radial front just too light for me?

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:04:40 -0500, "Raymo853" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer of
any sort. I like going on the fast training rides with the
cat 2/3 racers in the area but do not race. I got no
probelm going over rough roads and sections of gravel on
my road bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole
Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me.
The wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not a
machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples. I've
got a full on cross/touring type bike for rides venturing
onto rougher roads.

Let me the first of many to suggest that you need the
spokes crossed. Don't worry too much about the spoke count,
I've only got 24 in my enduro bike wheels (Mavic Crossroc)
and they seem to stand up pretty well under my 200lb, so 28
in the slightly larger 700c rim should be plenty for a
whippet like you!

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
milage may vary

raymo-<< I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR> << I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole

Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me. The
wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not a
machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Probably but a radial front wheel does nothin for the wheels
performance when compared to a 2 cross wheel which would be
stronger, all other things being equal. Mentioned a 'skilled
person'. Too bad he suggested radial and alloy. For you a
well built 28/2cross, brass nipps would perform well.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Raymo853 said:

I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer of
any sort. I like going on the fast training rides with the
cat 2/3 racers in the area but do not race. I got no
probelm going over rough roads and sections of gravel on
my road bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole
Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me.
The wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not a
machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples. I've
got a full on cross/touring type bike for rides venturing
onto rougher roads.

Nobody ever has trouble with well built front wheels.

I'm down to 220 thanks to Dr. Atkins, formerly as high as
270.

A couple of my road bikes have 24 spoke radial front wheels
(recycling 36 hole hubs) with Sun ME14 rims. Never had a
lick of trouble from them, wish I could still get light
clincher rims in that drilling.

My Bianchi BaSS fixed gear mtb has 28 radial spokes on an
Ultegra hub with some sort of light Bontrager rim I got on
special. Never had any trouble with that either.

I've also fooled around with 18 spokes (using 36 hole hubs
and rims) but those didn't feel so secure, and I wouldn't
recommend that.)

Sheldon "Does Stuff On His Own Bikes He Would NEVER Do On A
Customer's Bike" Brown +-----------------------------------------
+
| When I cannot sing my heart, | I can only speak my
| mind... | --John Lennon |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:04:40 -0500, "Raymo853" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer of
any sort. I like going on the fast training rides with the
cat 2/3 racers in the area but do not race. I got no
probelm going over rough roads and sections of gravel on
my road bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole
Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me.
The wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not a
machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples. I've
got a full on cross/touring type bike for rides venturing
onto rougher roads.

Alloy nipples and radial lacing on gravel and rough roads?
Why? Sounds like the wheel was built up for road use only.
I'd listen to the other comments- 2 or 3 cross, brass
nipples. Unless the price is great *and* you never go
further down any side road or trail than you are willing
to walk out.

"Raymo853" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer of
any sort. I

like

Quoted message said:

going on the fast training rides with the cat 2/3 racers
in the area but

do

Quoted message said:

not race. I got no probelm going over rough roads and
sections of gravel

on

Quoted message said:

my road bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole
Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me.
The wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not
a machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples.
I've got a full on cross/touring type bike for rides
venturing onto

rougher

Quoted message said:

roads.

I'll buck the "no radial wheels" trend and say as long as
you keep an eye on it, you should be fine. I've had a
32hole radial GL330 front wheel built for years w/o any
major problems. I can tell you from experience that this
wheel's not going to be the stiffest thing going, but for
JRA it'll do fine.

'Course 3x is going to be stronger, but hey, the question
was about this particular wheel...

Mike

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Raymo853
I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer of
any sort. I like going on the fast training rides with the
cat 2/3 racers in the area but do not race. I got no probelm
going over rough roads and sections of gravel on my road
bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole Ultegra/Open Pro
wheel will not be stout enough for me. The wheel in question
was made by a skilled person, not a machine, using normal DB
spokes and alloy nipples. I've got a full on cross/touring
type bike for rides venturing onto rougher roads.

Radial spoking on the Ultegra 28 hole hub is not covered by Shimano. Read Shimano publication SI-WH00A. Notes with regard to radial lacing and wheels is packed with every retail packaged Shimano hub. DURA ACE HB-7800 hubs made for lower spoke counts are an exception. However, the stess is still concentrated on the individual spokes and rim hole areas.
They may work OK but there isn't anything substantial to gain from this confuguration and durability is compromised.
Radial spoking makes the wheel slighly more laterlly stiff, but puts more strain on the spokes, hub, and rim.
Read "the Book" on this subject and ask the "skilled person" to explain how radial spoking is an advantage for you or any one.

Actualy he suggested that at my weight of 160 and for
gerneral road riding that 28 radial spokes may not be the
best.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

raymo-<< I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR> << I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole

Ultegra/Open Pro wheel will not be stout enough for me.
The wheel in question was made by a skilled person, not a
machine, using normal DB spokes and alloy nipples.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Probably but a radial front wheel does nothin for the
wheels performance

when

Quoted message said:

compared to a 2 cross wheel which would be stronger, all
other things

being

Quoted message said:

equal. Mentioned a 'skilled person'. Too bad he suggested
radial and

alloy. For

Quoted message said:

you a well built 28/2cross, brass nipps would
perform well.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

I have had radial spoked front wheels before, a cheap
Ritchey that came on my $1100 Schwinn. And a Mavic
CrossRide for the MTB. The former is a 20 spoke with a semi-
aero rim. Even though it was machine made it never gave me
any problems on the road bike, unlike the 28 3 cross lacing
rear mate to
it. That 20 spoke front is now on my cross bike and I beat
the tar out of it at times. Yes it does not stay true
long, but has never broken a spoke of gotten so off it
was un-rideable. The CrossRide has been reliable, but
too flexy for any trails and is now on a commuter.

I believe the 28 radial front would be fine, but would be
more confident if it was 2 cross. I am calling the builder
Monday and asking him to change the build. I polled the
group on my ride yesterday about wheels. Most of them ride
x-cross laced 14/15 DB alloy nipple 28 f/r on these training
rides and never have issues.

As a side note, I got my butt kicked on my 150 km ride with
the cat 2/3's yesterday. Glad the fastest two guys are super
nice and paced me back to the group twice yesterday.

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:ZTH4c.51614$h23.43416@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

"Raymo853" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I weigh about 160 and am just a road rider, not a racer
of any sort. I

like

Quoted message said:

going on the fast training rides with the cat 2/3 racers
in the area but

do

Quoted message said:

not race. I got no probelm going over rough roads and
sections of

gravel

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

my road bike. I wonder if a radial laced, 28 hole
Ultegra/Open Pro

wheel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will not be stout enough for me. The wheel in question
was made by a skilled person, not a machine, using
normal DB spokes and alloy nipples. I've got a full on
cross/touring type bike for rides venturing onto

rougher

Quoted message said:

roads.

I'll buck the "no radial wheels" trend and say as long as
you keep an eye

on

Quoted message said:

it, you should be fine. I've had a 32hole radial GL330
front wheel built for years w/o any major problems. I can
tell you from experience that

this

Quoted message said:

wheel's not going to be the stiffest thing going, but for
JRA it'll do

fine.

Quoted message said:

'Course 3x is going to be stronger, but hey, the question
was about this particular wheel...

Mike

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote:

snbip

Quoted message said:

In reality, 36h is pronbably the best overall solution for
any rider, regardless of weight. geee, those extra 8
spokes, front and rear, when compared to a 32h, weigh a
whopping 60 grams or so-2 ounces.

Naturaly!

More than the powerbar or

Quoted message said:

your nose hair. But 36h are more reliable...period.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Yo you old swab jockey!

I can only grow hair in my nose ( and ears ) anymore!

HAND

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

On 14 Mar 2004 14:20:24 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

raymo-<< Actualy he suggested that at my weight of 160 and
for gerneral road riding that 28 radial spokes may not be
the best. >><BR><BR>

28h aren't really the 'best' for anybody, including small
riders that weigh in the buck twenty five range.

It is amazing to me how people will be concerned for their
frameset strength and then get wheels that are described as
'strong enough, w/o any 'overkill''..4 spokes weigh 28
grams. 32 hole 3 cross is stronger than 28h. NOBODY loses
races or rides with 4 too many spokes.

In reality, 36h is pronbably the best overall solution for
any rider, regardless of weight. geee, those extra 8
spokes, front and rear, when compared to a 32h, weigh a
whopping 60 grams or so-2 ounces. More than the powerbar or
your nose hair. But 36h are more reliable...period.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Spoke count isn't about weight, it's about drag. Those
little suckers are whipping through the air at up to twice
your road speed, and the fewer you have the better, you just
need a rim strong enough to bridge the gaps.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
milage may vary

Sheldon Brown:

Quoted message said:

I'm down to 220 thanks to Dr. Atkins, formerly as
high as 270.

Interesting. What convinced you Atkins was the way to go?
Just saw this at news.ninemsn.com.austory 55Open ↗
487.asp?MSID=bd264e499b434191b356f81e84fb8f6c

No flames wanted, just genuinely curious...

*******************
AMA issues Atkins diet warning

The Australian Medical Association (AMA) has thrown its
weight behind a campaign warning people of the dangers of
the low-carbohydrate, high-fat Atkins Diet.

AMA federal president Dr Bill Glasson said other states
should follow the lead of Victoria in alerting people about
the potential harm the diet could cause.

"We'll be supporting the move by Victoria and the other
states who feel the evidence we have about the diet cannot
be substantiated," Dr Glasson told AAP.

"It's important we do get information out through our
general practices, and our GPs, as well as through general
public education and public health units around the states."

The Victorian government is unveiling a taxpayer funded
campaign aimed at convincing people to give up the high-
protein, low-carbohydrate Atkins diet and other `fad diets'.

The Victorian state government planned to give out posters
and information booklets at gyms, doctors' waiting rooms and
universities.

Jose Rizal wrote:

I said:

Quoted message said:

I'm down to 220 thanks to Dr. Atkins, formerly as
high as 270.

Jose Rizal said:

Interesting. What convinced you Atkins was the way to go?

It was recommended for me by a doctor. I find it
particularly congenial because it includes many of my
favorite foods, and doesn't require limiting portions.

Quoted message said:

Just saw this at news.ninemsn.com.austoryOpen ↗
55487.asp?MSID=bd264e499b434191b356f81e84fb8f6c

No flames wanted, just genuinely curious...

*******************
AMA issues Atkins diet warning

The Australian Medical Association (AMA) has thrown its
weight behind a campaign warning people of the dangers of
the low-carbohydrate, high-fat Atkins Diet.

AMA federal president Dr Bill Glasson said other states
should follow the lead of Victoria in alerting people
about the potential harm the diet could cause.

"We'll be supporting the move by Victoria and the other
states who feel the evidence we have about the diet cannot
be substantiated," Dr Glasson told AAP.

"It's important we do get information out through our
general practices, and our GPs, as well as through general
public education and public health units around the
states."

The Victorian government is unveiling a taxpayer
funded campaign aimed at convincing people to give up
the high-protein, low-carbohydrate Atkins diet and
other `fad diets'.

The Victorian state government planned to give out posters
and information booklets at gyms, doctors' waiting rooms
and universities.

That is a rather vague "view with alarm" with no specifics
that I could see. A pretty useless article.

I do know that I feel MUCH better now than I did before, I'm
healthier than I've been in quite a few years. I had a check
up in January and all my numbers are good.

Sheldon "Doesn't Agree With Dr. Atkins About Coffee" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| What is good for you is what is good for you. | --Peter
| Chisholm |
+-------------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Sheldon "Doesn't Agree With Dr. Atkins About Coffee" Brown

Anything else of his you don't agree with?

I'm curious, because this reminds me of a well known bike
fitter hereabouts, who many swear by and others swear at.
Every time I speak to a supporter, it turns out they've
ignored his advice on some point or other. But thay're still
100% loyal.

Personally, it seems to me that if someone gets it wrong on
coffee, trusting them on the trivial matters is akin to an
act of faith...

--
Shane Stanley

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kinky-<< Spoke count isn't about weight, it's about drag.
Those little

suckers

Quoted message said:

are whipping through the air at up to twice your road
speed, and the fewer you have the better, you just need a
rim strong enough to bridge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Right and that great big, non aero thing on the bike
called a 'body'

doesn't

Quoted message said:

make any difference. Aeroness of 36 spokes vs 28 is lost
in the noise.

I've got to agree w/Kinky on this one. It's about drag, not
weight. Same
w/radial vs. cross. Radial is more aero. The faster and
longer you ride, the more difference it makes. If you're
just taking a nice vacation touring through the mtns then
don't worry about it.

Dave

Shane Stanley said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Sheldon "Doesn't Agree With Dr. Atkins About Coffee" Brown

Anything else of his you don't agree with?

I'm curious, because this reminds me of a well known bike
fitter hereabouts, who many swear by and others swear at.
Every time I speak to a supporter, it turns out they've
ignored his advice on some point or other. But thay're
still 100% loyal.

The coffee is actually an issue unrelated to the low-carb
thing. Atkins's low-carb diet has a specific logic to it
which was explained to me, but the details of which I can't
explain in detail.

Coffee has a negligible carb content, unless you add
contaminants like milk and sugar.

I was puzzled by Atkins's strong objection to coffee, so I
did a bit of research to try to find out what his
objection to it was. The answer wasn't easy to find, he
was mainly prescriptive on this topic, but it seems that
he believed that drinking coffee would cause you to
develop a "sweet tooth" and thus make it harder for you to
keep to the low-carb regimen. I have not found this to be
the case in my own instance, and have not suffered any
great cravings for sweets. Such cravings as I have are for
foods from the "salty crunchy" food group, such as Doritos
and french fries.

I palliate these cravings with small portions of popcorn.
(Actually that's a bit of a solution to the great tragedy of
Atkins: You can have all the butter you want, but there's
nothing to spread it on!)

Quoted message said:

Personally, it seems to me that if someone gets it wrong
on coffee, trusting them on the trivial matters is akin to
an act of faith...

I don't "trust" him, but I do trust his low-carb/ketosis
theory, because it has worked fabulously well for me. I
don't know if it would work for you.

Sheldon "9 New Holes In My Belt" Brown +------------------------------------------------
+
| Civility costs nothing, and buys everything. | --Lady
| Mary Wortley Montagu |
+------------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

"onefred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:20040315084122.18347.00001247@mb-
m06.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Kinky-<< Spoke count isn't about weight, it's about
drag. Those little

suckers

Quoted message said:

are whipping through the air at up to twice your road
speed, and the fewer you have the better, you just need
a rim strong enough to bridge

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Right and that great big, non aero thing on the bike
called a 'body'

doesn't

Quoted message said:

make any difference. Aeroness of 36 spokes vs 28 is lost
in the noise.

I've got to agree w/Kinky on this one. It's about drag,
not weight. Same
w/radial vs. cross. Radial is more aero. The faster and
longer you ride, the more difference it makes. If you're
just taking a nice vacation

touring

Quoted message said:

through the mtns then don't worry about it.

Dave

Y'all are splitting hairs now.

I don't think there's a model over on analytic cycling that
can even measure the difference between radial and crossed
spokes cause the difference is so small!

Mike

Shane Stanley <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Sheldon "Doesn't Agree With Dr. Atkins About
Coffee" Brown

Anything else of his you don't agree with?

I'm curious, because this reminds me of a well known bike
fitter hereabouts, who many swear by and others swear at.
Every time I speak to a supporter, it turns out they've
ignored his advice on some point or other. But thay're
still 100% loyal.

Personally, it seems to me that if someone gets it wrong
on coffee, trusting them on the trivial matters is akin to
an act of faith...

I think that Atkins probably got it wrong on a lot of the
details but has got it right on the underlying fundamental:
the human body is not equipped to take fat and protein
molecules from food and directly use them for energy or
store them in fat cells. As a matter of fact, though, Atkins
seems to me to emphsize the variable nature of human
response to his diet, so I don't think anyone should over-
emphasize this sort of thing. I've even known one or two
people who swear they didn't lose weight on the induction
diet. I, on the other hand, can eat 16 oz. steaks,
vegetables slathered in butter, salad with loads of dressing
and low carb ice cream and not gain an ounce. The problem is
balancing carb intake with exercise to get proper recovery.

I'm not surprised to see medical associations around the
world issuing "warnings" about the Atkins diet. Many
doctors, after the brainwashing regime of medical school and
residency are not very well equipped to process data or
ideas that diverge from the orthodoxy that has been
instilled in them. This syndrome is particularly notable in
bureaucratic organizations like national medical
associations and health services. The latest research shows
that Atkins diet does not increase cholesterol and improves
the good to bad ratio, so I'd like to know on what
scientific basis they are issuing their warning.

JP

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:18:15 -0800, "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet>

Quoted message said:

"onefred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:20040315084122.18347.00001247@mb-
m06.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Kinky-<< Spoke count isn't about weight, it's about
drag. Those little

suckers

Quoted message said:

are whipping through the air at up to twice your road
speed, and the fewer you have the better, you just need
a rim strong enough to bridge
>><BR><BR>

Right and that great big, non aero thing on the bike
called a 'body'

doesn't

Quoted message said:

make any difference. Aeroness of 36 spokes vs 28 is
lost in the noise.

I've got to agree w/Kinky on this one. It's about drag,
not weight. Same
w/radial vs. cross. Radial is more aero. The faster and
longer you ride, the more difference it makes. If
you're just taking a nice vacation

touring

Quoted message said:

through the mtns then don't worry about it.

Dave

Y'all are splitting hairs now.

I don't think there's a model over on analytic cycling that
can even measure the difference between radial and crossed
spokes cause the difference is so small!

Mike

I agree with everybody, including myself, but only up to a
point. Radial spoking for aerodynamic improvement is not
about the spokes themselves but may be worthwhile if it
permits a different hub design with a smaller cross section,
as seems to be the case with many "aero" wheels. Cutting the
spoke count is not the first place to go looking for
aerodynamic gains if you haven't sorted out your rim profile
and perhaps most importantly body position first, but all
other things being equal, dropping from 36 to 28 makes
enough difference in a 25 mile TT to affect your finishing
position, so it's one of the refinements to consider. And if
a rim manufacturer makes rims with low spoke counts, a
competent wheelbuilder should be able to make you a strong
and reliable wheel; as I said, my 200lbs refuses to kill my
24 spoke Mavic Crossrocs; DeeMaxs have only 28 spokes, and
you don't see many DH races lost due to wheel failure!

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
milage may vary

How come so many bikes today come with wheels as low as 16
front and 20 rear? Are these safe? I can't imagine major
manufacturers selling them if they were not. Imagine all the
lawsuits...