SRAM Dual-Drive...

Whingin' Pom wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible with
Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new hub, new
mech and new shifters?

No reason why you shouldn't be able to use your existing
cassette and probably rear derailleur as well. But squinting
at their web site (nasty thing, too much Flash) seems to
indicate that it comes as a complete system - hub, rear
derailleur and shifter unit. The latter has a twist-grip for
the cassette shift and a trigger thing for the hub. It looks
as though it might be a little awkward with Optima's upwards-and-
forwards USS bars though.

Quoted message said:

Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket shifters
as I assume that I'll be able to operate them with my
thumbs, but they move in a horizontal plane as opposed to
a vertical one. Where does the cable go for them?

I'm not sure whether one can use any other type of shifter
with the Dual Drive system - it might be worth e-mailing
SRAM and asking...

Quoted message said:

Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Supposedly it works well. It's 3x7 predecessor was well
thought of by numerous Dark Side manufacturers

Quoted message said:

Should I be happy with what I've got

Personally I wouldn't bother coz my sums indicate that a
triple chainset gives a wider range and more customisation
options...

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"Whingin' Pom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When upgrade fever hits, it hits hard...

I'm thinking about upgrading the gears on my USS Optima
Rolls Canardly from standard Shimano LX to an 3x9 SRAM Dual-
Drive and get rid of my front mech and excess chainrings.
My reasons for doing so are: 1, I'll be able to use all of
the gears. 2, Alledgedly less maintenance. 3, I'll be able
to get rid of them bloody friction-powered bar-end
shifters! 4, Errm, well, upgrade fever, really. :-)

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible with
Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new hub, new
mech and new shifters?

I use an SRAM gripshift with a Shimano rear mech and
cassette on my hybrid with no problems at all. In fact rear
mech is Alivio 8 speed and I use it with a 7 speed
cassette. It works fine.

--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W
simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.netOpen ↗

Whingin' Pom said:

When upgrade fever hits, it hits hard...

I'm thinking about upgrading the gears on my USS Optima
Rolls Canardly from standard Shimano LX to an 3x9 SRAM Dual-
Drive and get rid of my front mech and excess chainrings.

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible with
Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new hub, new
mech and new shifters?

I presently have a 3x9 SRAM Dual-Drive on the Trice and it
works fine with the Deore XT mech with DuraAce bar ends. It
has the SRAM 11-34 cogs. The SRAM gearing is by way of a
small trigger.

Quoted message said:

Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket shifters
as I assume that I'll be able to operate them with my
thumbs, but they move in a horizontal plane as opposed to
a vertical one.

Depending on the design of your USS could not you use bar-
ends with bar-end levers to make them vertical?

Quoted message said:

Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Well mine works fine although it does add extra weight. I've
also got an XT triple giving a *massive* range of gearing
suitable for anything that goes up :-)

John B

Dave Larrington said:

Whingin' Pom wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible
with Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new
hub, new mech and new shifters?

No reason why you shouldn't be able to use your existing
cassette and probably rear derailleur as well. But
squinting at their web site (nasty thing, too much Flash)
seems to indicate that it comes as a complete system -
hub, rear derailleur and shifter unit. The latter has a
twist-grip for the cassette shift and a trigger thing for
the hub.

You can get all the parts separately. You can use Shimano
cassettes + rear-mechs, but I don't think they're compatible
with the SRAM 3x9 combined shifter. You would probably want
the SACHS 3-speed hub-gear shifter that is compatible with
the hub gears, and your choice of Shimano compatible shifter
for the rear-mech. SRAM Head office were very helpful to me
in determining what would / wouldn't work - I think my LBS
gave me the number but I've lost it now - sorry.

Quoted message said:

It looks as though it might be a little awkward with
Optima's upwards-and-forwards USS bars though.

Quoted message said:

Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket
shifters as I assume that I'll be able to operate
them with my thumbs, but they move in a horizontal
plane as opposed to a vertical one. Where does the
cable go for them?

Thumbshifters - but SRAM only do straight-bar
shifters, helas.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure whether one can use any other type of shifter
with the Dual Drive system - it might be worth e-mailing
SRAM and asking...

You can use your own rear-mech + rear-mech shifter, but
allegedly you can damage the hub-gear part if you don't use
the proper SRAM shifter and clickbox. The issue is in
whether the middle-gear is properly engaged - if it isn't,
then the hub will wear out much faster.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Supposedly it works well. It's 3x7 predecessor was well
thought of by numerous Dark Side manufacturers

It does work well - it's very robust and will even shift
under power. But my experience is that rear-mechs can be
twitchy and sensitive to youfs kicking them in, whereas front-
mechs are normally robust and trouble free. It seems to me
that a 3x9 solves the wrong problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should I be happy with what I've got

Personally I wouldn't bother coz my sums indicate that a
triple chainset gives a wider range and more customisation
options...

Snap - though I might consider a Rohloff hub if I was
richer. Sachs also do a 1x7 hub IIRC - I would imagine that
either of these options would solve the maintainance trouble
better than the 3x9.

Thumbshifters & USS are a dream combination, IMO.

AC

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:52:46 -0000, "Dave Larrington"

() said:

Whingin' Pom wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible
with Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new
hub, new mech and new shifters?

No reason why you shouldn't be able to use your existing
cassette and probably rear derailleur as well. But
squinting at their web site (nasty thing, too much Flash)
seems to indicate that it comes as a complete system - hub,
rear derailleur and shifter unit. The latter has a twist-
grip for the cassette shift and a trigger thing for the
hub. It looks as though it might be a little awkward with
Optima's upwards-and-forwards USS bars though.

Their website is a bloated piece of excrement. Nasty doesn't
come close. Has plain old vanilla text become obsolete?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket
shifters as I assume that I'll be able to operate
them with my thumbs, but they move in a horizontal
plane as opposed to a vertical one. Where does the
cable go for them?

I'm not sure whether one can use any other type of shifter
with the Dual Drive system - it might be worth e-mailing
SRAM and asking...

I'm sure there's contact info on the site somehere. I may
just fire one off to webmaster@... and ask.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Supposedly it works well. It's 3x7 predecessor was well
thought of by numerous Dark Side manufacturers

Quoted message said:

Should I be happy with what I've got

Personally I wouldn't bother coz my sums indicate that a
triple chainset gives a wider range and more customisation
options...

Fairy nuff. Thanks for the info.
--
Matt K Dunedin, NZ

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:12:44 +0000, anonymous coward
<[email hidden]> ([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

Dave Larrington said:

Whingin' Pom wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I assume that all the Shimano bits are not compatible
with Sram stuff, right? I'll need a new cassette, new
hub, new mech and new shifters?

No reason why you shouldn't be able to use your existing
cassette and probably rear derailleur as well. But
squinting at their web site (nasty thing, too much Flash)
seems to indicate that it comes as a complete system -
hub, rear derailleur and shifter unit. The latter has a
twist-grip for the cassette shift and a trigger thing for
the hub.

You can get all the parts separately. You can use Shimano
cassettes + rear-mechs, but I don't think they're
compatible with the SRAM 3x9 combined shifter.

Good. I'm not keen on twist-grips, so this is very
useful to know.

Quoted message said:

You would probably want the SACHS 3-speed hub-gear shifter
that is compatible with the hub gears, and your choice of
Shimano compatible shifter for the rear-mech. SRAM Head
office were very helpful to me in determining what would /
wouldn't work - I think my LBS gave me the number but I've
lost it now - sorry.

OK, I'll see if I can find some details on it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It looks as though it might be a little awkward with
Optima's upwards-and-forwards USS bars though.

Quoted message said:

Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket
shifters as I assume that I'll be able to operate
them with my thumbs, but they move in a horizontal
plane as opposed to a vertical one. Where does the
cable go for them?

Thumbshifters - but SRAM only do straight-bar
shifters, helas.

Hmm... I may be confusing terminology here. What I have is
the Shimano shifters that look like little levers and fit
into the ends of the bars with the levers pointing in an
upwards direction and are pushed/pulled with the thumbs.
What I'd like are shifters that move in a rotational
direction, IYSWIM. I'm pretty handy with a Dremel, so if
they need modding slightly in order to run the cable
through, that's not a problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure whether one can use any other type of
shifter with the Dual Drive system - it might be worth
e-mailing SRAM and asking...

You can use your own rear-mech + rear-mech shifter, but
allegedly you can damage the hub-gear part if you don't use
the proper SRAM shifter and clickbox. The issue is in
whether the middle-gear is properly engaged - if it isn't,
then the hub will wear out much faster.

No problems with getting a new shifter and clickbox.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Supposedly it works well. It's 3x7 predecessor was well
thought of by numerous Dark Side manufacturers

It does work well - it's very robust and will even shift
under power. But my experience is that rear-mechs can be
twitchy and sensitive to youfs kicking them in, whereas front-
mechs are normally robust and trouble free. It seems to me
that a 3x9 solves the wrong problem.

Heh. It's the front mech that I'm having trouble with and
want to lose. I've set it up and trimmed it the best I can,
but it still makes a bloody awful noise when shifting and
takes a couple of attempts to get it in the "sweet spot".

The front mech on my road bike is a delight to use. The one
on the Rolls is a PITA. I like indexed gears.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should I be happy with what I've got

Personally I wouldn't bother coz my sums indicate that a
triple chainset gives a wider range and more
customisation options...

Snap - though I might consider a Rohloff hub if I was
richer. Sachs also do a 1x7 hub IIRC - I would imagine that
either of these options would solve the maintainance
trouble better than the 3x9.

Now a Rohloff is what I *want*. What I can afford, though,
is another matter. I could buy a new Brommie for the cost of
a Rohloff. :-(

Quoted message said:

Thumbshifters & USS are a dream combination, IMO.

I haven't thought about that option You can still get
indexed thumbshifters?
--
Matt K Dunedin, NZ

Whingin' Pom said:

Good. I'm not keen on twist-grips, so this is very useful
to know.

Quoted message said:

You would probably want the SACHS 3-speed hub-gear shifter
that is compatible with the hub gears, and your choice of
Shimano compatible shifter for the rear-mech. SRAM Head
office were very helpful to me in determining what would /
wouldn't work - I think my LBS gave me the number but I've
lost it now - sorry.

OK, I'll see if I can find some details on it.

The bad news is it's a twist-grip shifter. I did read on the
internet that you could use the old Sturmey-Archer ones, but
this seems to be a lie.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It looks as though it might be a little awkward with
Optima's upwards-and-forwards USS bars though.

As you push the handlebars round on an USS bike, your hand
twists around the handlebars. It sounds to me like it might
be awkward with twist-grip shifters - though lots of people
seem to sell them like that and I expect to be told it's not
a problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
> steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket
> shifters as I assume that I'll be able to operate them
> with my thumbs, but they move in a horizontal plane as
> opposed to a vertical one. Where does the cable go for
> them?

These are twist-grip shifters.

mtbr.comproduct 78845.shtmlOpen ↗

The cable comes out of the sticky-out bit at the silver
plasticy business end of the shifter that is in a fixed position-
not the twist-grip end. They don't need to be routed
through the bars. I don't think you'd need to mod them - my
only worry would be that they might get totalled if you lay
your bike heavily on its side (i.e. fall off, or maybe
that's just me).

Quoted message said:

Hmm... I may be confusing terminology here. What I have is
the Shimano shifters that look like little levers and fit
into the ends of the bars with the levers pointing in an
upwards direction and are pushed/pulled with the thumbs.

I think the problem's me writing muddledly again - those
sound like what I'm calling 'thumbshifters' - actually bar-end-
shifters. I think they're great
- a shame if you have to get rid of them.

Quoted message said:

What I'd like are shifters that move in a rotational
direction, IYSWIM. I'm pretty handy with a Dremel, so if
they need modding slightly in order to run the cable
through, that's not a problem.

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure whether one can use any other type of
shifter with the Dual Drive system - it might be worth
e-mailing SRAM and asking...

You can use your own rear-mech + rear-mech shifter, but
allegedly you can damage the hub-gear part if you don't
use the proper SRAM shifter and clickbox. The issue is in
whether the middle-gear is properly engaged - if it isn't,
then the hub will wear out much faster.

No problems with getting a new shifter and clickbox.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Does the dual-drive work well or is it an idea too far?

Supposedly it works well. It's 3x7 predecessor was well
thought of by numerous Dark Side manufacturers

It does work well - it's very robust and will even shift
under power. But my experience is that rear-mechs can be
twitchy and sensitive to youfs kicking them in, whereas
front-mechs are normally robust and trouble free. It seems
to me that a 3x9 solves the wrong problem.

Heh. It's the front mech that I'm having trouble with and
want to lose. I've set it up and trimmed it the best I
can, but it still makes a bloody awful noise when
shifting and takes a couple of attempts to get it in the
"sweet spot".

Might there be something wrong with the existing one?
Perhaps it would be cheapest just to change it to
something better?

Quoted message said:

The front mech on my road bike is a delight to use. The
one on the Rolls is a PITA. I like indexed gears.

Fair 'nuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Should I be happy with what I've got

Personally I wouldn't bother coz my sums indicate that a
triple chainset gives a wider range and more
customisation options...

Snap - though I might consider a Rohloff hub if I was
richer. Sachs also do a 1x7 hub IIRC - I would imagine
that either of these options would solve the maintainance
trouble better than the 3x9.

Now a Rohloff is what I *want*. What I can afford, though,
is another matter. I could buy a new Brommie for the cost
of a Rohloff. :-(

I think you can also get geared bottom brackets now - I have
no idea whether they're good, bad or indifferent.

AC

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 06:07:25 +0000, anonymous coward
<[email hidden]> ([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

Whingin' Pom said:

Good. I'm not keen on twist-grips, so this is very useful
to know.

Quoted message said:

You would probably want the SACHS 3-speed hub-gear
shifter that is compatible with the hub gears, and your
choice of Shimano compatible shifter for the rear-mech.
SRAM Head office were very helpful to me in determining
what would / wouldn't work - I think my LBS gave me the
number but I've lost it now - sorry.

OK, I'll see if I can find some details on it.

The bad news is it's a twist-grip shifter. I did read on
the internet that you could use the old Sturmey-Archer
ones, but this seems to be a lie.

Oh well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It looks as though it might be a little awkward with
> Optima's upwards-and-forwards USS bars though.

As you push the handlebars round on an USS bike, your hand
twists around the handlebars. It sounds to me like it might
be awkward with twist-grip shifters - though lots of people
seem to sell them like that and I expect to be told it's
not a problem.

This is why twist-grips seem less than ideal to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Which shifters would be best to use for underseat
>> steering? I like the look of the shorty or rocket
>> shifters as I assume that I'll be able to operate them
>> with my thumbs, but they move in a horizontal plane as
>> opposed to a vertical one. Where does the cable go for
>> them?

These are twist-grip shifters.

mtbr.comproduct 78845.shtmlOpen ↗

The cable comes out of the sticky-out bit at the silver
plasticy business end of the shifter that is in a fixed position-
not the twist-grip end. They don't need to be routed
through the bars. I don't think you'd need to mod them - my
only worry would be that they might get totalled if you lay
your bike heavily on its side (i.e. fall off, or maybe
that's just me).

Ahh! It all slots into place, now. Without having had
previous experience of these, I'd assumed that the silver
plasticy bit did the shifting whilst the black rubbery bit
attached to the bars! <slaps forehead>

So, you twist the black bit to shift gear. That's not what I
assumed and not really what I'm after. I'm not even sure
that they make what I'm after, now!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hmm... I may be confusing terminology here. What I have
is the Shimano shifters that look like little levers and
fit into the ends of the bars with the levers pointing in
an upwards direction and are pushed/pulled with the
thumbs.

I think the problem's me writing muddledly again - those
sound like what I'm calling 'thumbshifters' - actually bar-end-
shifters. I think they're great
- a shame if you have to get rid of them.

I don't mind the indexed one, it clicks between gears quite
nicely, but the friction one is driving me round the bend.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I'd like are shifters that move in a rotational
direction, IYSWIM. I'm pretty handy with a Dremel, so if
they need modding slightly in order to run the cable
through, that's not a problem.

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

Neither am I, now! What would be perfect would be something
shaped similar to twist-grips, but with the grip staying
fixed and the cable-holder bit doing the moving, so that I
can flick them with my thumbs in a left/right fashion rather
than bar-ends which move in a forward/back fashion. Given
that I now realise I've been talking Total Bollocks, this
may not make much sense at all. :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Heh. It's the front mech that I'm having trouble with and
want to lose. I've set it up and trimmed it the best I
can, but it still makes a bloody awful noise when
shifting and takes a couple of attempts to get it in the
"sweet spot".

Might there be something wrong with the existing one?
Perhaps it would be cheapest just to change it to
something better?

It's a possibility. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong
with it to me, but I could be wrong.

The LBS's round here are not much help if you're not riding
either the latest CF road bike or several thousand dollars
of double-boinger. The one that has the best stock seems to
delight in using tech-speak as a stick to beat less
knowledgable customers with. <sigh> I miss my LBS in
Blighty. They were nice. They didn't mind if I talked out my
[censored] and would gently correct me, rather than rub my nose in
it.

Back to the drawing board I suppose.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now a Rohloff is what I *want*. What I can afford,
though, is another matter. I could buy a new Brommie for
the cost of a Rohloff. :-(

I think you can also get geared bottom brackets now - I
have no idea whether they're good, bad or indifferent.

I've heard many good things about them and have tried one
fitted to a Greenspeed. My ideal commuter bike would have a
MountainDrive on the front and a Rohloff on the back giving
me a nice 2x14 range. It would also be a trike. :-)
--
Matt K Dunedin, NZ