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Greedy, arrogant bike shop owner

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Road Cycling
Published
26 March 2004
Last activity
6 April 2004
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Rick Warner
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87
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  1. "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Mark: One of the best presentations was by the head of
    Arizona's DOT. He's been pushing hard to make sure that
    the accommodations for cyclists are within the normal
    transportation framework, not segregated. There is a need
    for both, but never at the exclusion of cyclists from the
    streets.

    The AASHTO folk (the national oversight agency for all
    state DOTs) are incorporating useful, on-the-street
    cycling accommodation as the routine way to build
    roads. They are *not* advocating separate-but-equal
    (not!) bike routes.

    The times are changing. There are many people at state
    DOTs who understand the needs of the "competent" cyclist.

    Mike,

    Let's take this closer to home, where you and I live. Where
    was LAB in the hearings for AB1408 last year, the original
    AB1408 that actually made meaningful changes to the CVC
    related to bicyclists, not the gutted and weakened AB1408
    which I am just as happy did not pass since other than
    allowing recumbent riders to have high handlebars it did
    zilch. CHP, and to a small degree CalTrans, were major
    opponents and it was left to the local advocacy groups to
    try to dispel the misinformation those state agencies were
    giving legislators .. things like 'being doored is not a
    major hazard for cyclists ...'. Fooey. That was an instance
    where, in the most populous state a national organization
    could have stood forth and helped to bring light on the
    matter, but frankly I did not see it happening. Did I blink?

    - rick

  2. "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Where was LAB in the hearings for AB1408 last year,


    ....

    Quoted message said:

    it was left to the local advocacy groups to try to dispel
    the misinformation those state agencies were giving
    legislators


    ..

    Quoted message said:

    things like 'being doored is not a major hazard for
    cyclists ...'. Fooey. That was an instance where, in the
    most populous state a national organization could have
    stood forth and helped to bring light on the matter, but
    frankly I did not see it happening. Did I blink?

    Have you seen the door-zone bike lanes that LAB's lobbying
    arm, America Bikes, promotes? Take a look at the picture of
    one on the front page of their web site for "Complete the
    Streets", i.e. what the LAB's new leadership wants done to
    your streets: americabikes.orgbicycleaccomodati
    on_factsheet_completestreets.asp

    If there are any doubts about America Bikes' connection to
    the LAB, compare the street addresses and boards of
    directors for the two organizations.

    Why would an organization controlled by people who promote
    door-zone bike lanes say that riding in the door zone is
    anything but safe?

    -Steve Goodridge (Be sure to see humantransport.orghumantransport.org
    bicycledriving/library/door_zone.pdf )

  3. Steven Goodridge wrote in part:

    << Why would an organization controlled by people who
    promote door-zone bike lanes say that riding in the door
    zone is anything but safe? >>

    About these famous "door-zone bike lanes," a little bit
    of clarification is needed. While there are many striped
    bike lanes that lie partially in the door zone, there are
    very few that lie _entirely_ in the DZ. In other words,
    they are almost universally wide enough that a rider can
    cruise on the left side of the bike lane and stay out of
    the DZ. If someone is in the DZ, they still have only
    themselves to blame.

    That said, I don't see much if any practical benefit from
    on-street bike lanes. Their popularity is a puzzle.

    Robert

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (R15757) said:

    Steven Goodridge wrote in part:

    << Why would an organization controlled by people who
    promote door-zone bike lanes say that riding in the door
    zone is anything but safe? >>

    About these famous "door-zone bike lanes," a little bit of
    clarification is needed. While there are many striped bike
    lanes that lie partially in the door zone, there are very
    few that lie _entirely_ in the DZ. In other words, they
    are almost universally wide enough that a rider can cruise
    on the left side of the bike lane and stay out of the DZ.
    If someone is in the DZ, they still have only themselves
    to blame.

    That said, I don't see much if any practical benefit from
    on-street bike lanes. Their popularity is a puzzle.

    1) gives cars and cyclists alike a clear demarcation where
    the cyclists know the cars almost certainly won't enter
    their path and the cars know vice versa. This is a great
    confidence booster for cyclists not yet ready for the
    exhiliration of feeling a car judge the gap _perfectly_,
    and not knock them off their bike with their mirror by a
    couple of inches.

    2) by narrowing the roadway, it has a natural cautioning and
    slowing effect on the cars. Because they perceive that
    they can't just wander from ditch to median now, the
    drivers stay between the lines.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
    sfu.cawiredcola President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club

  5. (R15757) said:

    About these famous "door-zone bike lanes," a little bit of
    clarification is needed. While there are many striped bike
    lanes that lie partially in the door zone, there are very
    few that lie _entirely_ in the DZ. In other words, they
    are almost universally wide enough that a rider can cruise
    on the left side of the bike lane and stay out of the DZ.
    If someone is in the DZ, they still have only themselves
    to blame.

    Tell that to Dana Laird's family.

    Bike lane proponents claim that bike lanes encourage cycling
    by novices and tell them where to ride. It can be seen that
    many novices do indeed ride in the middle of the lane, well
    inside the reach of car doors.

    If the DOT knows that bike lanes will attract novices, and
    some portion of the bike lane is dangerous to use, then the
    DOT should mark off that portion to discourage novice
    cyclists from riding too far right. The bike lane should
    start at that position, outside the door zone.

    I think it's bad design to mark a bike lane that requires
    cyclists to ride its left edge, effectively constraining
    cyclists to a sliver of roadway between traffic overtaking
    at close distance and the threat of opening doors. Without
    the stripe compelling cyclists to stay right, the cyclist is
    free to move farther to the left, using the full travel lane
    if required, and drivers overtake more carefully.

    -Steve Goodridge

  6. [email hidden] (R15757) wrote

    Quoted message said:

    That said, I don't see much if any practical benefit from
    on-street bike lanes. Their popularity is a puzzle.

    The main purpose of door zone bike lanes is to maximize the
    number stripe-miles that a city can claim they have produced
    as "bicycle facilities". Quality is irrelevant to those
    bikeway advocates and politicians who measure "bicycle
    friendliness" in facility-miles.

    The alternate purpose is to encourage cyclists to ride close
    enough to parked car doors that motorists can more easily
    overtake them, i.e. to boost motorists' convenience by
    restricting cyclists' operating space to overlap with that
    portion of the pavement that motorists would not use
    themselves, for fear of collision with opening doors.

    -Steve Goodridge

  7. Steven Goodridge said:

    Have you seen the door-zone bike lanes that LAB's lobbying
    arm, America Bikes, promotes? Take a look at the picture
    of one on the front page of their web site for "Complete
    the Streets", i.e. what the LAB's new leadership wants
    done to your streets: americabikes.orgbicycle
    accomodation_factsheet_completestreets.asp

    That's not a photo of a door zone bike lane. I've seen door
    zone bike lanes, and that's not one of them. That's a beyond-the-door-
    zone bike lane, very different.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  8. R15757(?) said:

    That said, I don't see much if any practical benefit from
    on-street bike lanes. Their popularity is a puzzle.

    I have some direct experience that contrasts bike lane and
    non-bike lane riding. I have almost never been "buzzed",
    honked at, or yelled at when riding in a bike lane. I am
    regularly "buzzed", honked at, and yelled at by motorists on
    roads without a bike lane.

    I was riding last Tuesday with another rider, two-abreast(*)
    fullin in a bike lane. No hassles from cars. We turned onto
    a street with an equally wide lane, and we are almost
    immediately buzzed by an angry driver who had to swerve far
    towards the curb to successfully "buzz" us.

    * riding two-abreast is legal in California
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  9. On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:54:10 -0800, Terry Morse <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    That's not a photo of a door zone bike lane. I've seen door
    zone bike lanes, and that's not one of them. That's a beyond-the-door-
    zone bike lane, very different.

    Really? Because if you ride at the far left of the lane, you
    are out of reach? Perhaps you should get a bit more familiar
    with the terminology.

    If you ride in the middle of that lane, you can be doored,
    especially if the parked vehicles are trucks and SUVs and
    not the narrow automobiles shown. And that rider is to the
    left of the lane, not in the middle. Not all would make
    that choice.

    This is a door zone bike lane.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  10. Terry Morse said:
    R15757(?) said:

    That said, I don't see much if any practical benefit
    from on-street bike lanes. Their popularity is a puzzle.

    I have some direct experience that contrasts bike lane and
    non-bike lane riding. I have almost never been "buzzed",
    honked at, or yelled at when riding in a bike lane. I am
    regularly "buzzed", honked at, and yelled at by motorists
    on roads without a bike lane.

    I was riding last Tuesday with another rider, two-
    abreast(*) fullin in a bike lane. No hassles from cars. We
    turned onto a street with an equally wide lane, and we are
    almost immediately buzzed by an angry driver who had to
    swerve far towards the curb to successfully "buzz" us.

    * riding two-abreast is legal in California
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

    You make the mistake of ascribing correlation with
    causality. Perhaps the motorist buzzed you because in his
    distorted mind you were not where you were supposed to be:
    on a road with bike lanes. In other words, the
    proliferation of BLs has taught motorists that there is a
    special place for bicyclists. I've been told "This ain't a
    biking road" by a motorist who said there were no BLs there
    so I shouldn't be on it.

    Wayne

  11. Wayne Pein said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was riding last Tuesday with another rider, two-
    abreast(*) fullin in a bike lane. No hassles from cars.
    We turned onto a street with an equally wide lane, and
    we are almost immediately buzzed by an angry driver who
    had to swerve far towards the curb to successfully
    "buzz" us.

    You make the mistake of ascribing correlation with
    causality. Perhaps the motorist buzzed you because in his
    distorted mind you were not where you were supposed to be:
    on a road with bike lanes. In other words, the
    proliferation of BLs has taught motorists that there is a
    special place for bicyclists. I've been told "This ain't a
    biking road" by a motorist who said there were no BLs
    there so I shouldn't be on it.

    What does "buzz"ing mean? When they blaze by with only about
    3 inches of space between you?

    Once a woman in an SUV swerved suddenly into my bike lane as
    I was exiting from my apartment complex parking lot. It was
    early enough that she was the only one on the road, and she
    kept riding in the bike lane for about 50 yards. I didn't
    see anything in the road, nor any reason for her to swerve
    into the bike lane. I am not sure whether she was driving
    inattentively or whether she was trying to intimidate me.
    Sure got my blood pumping though!

    Ben
    --
    Never wear your best pants when you go to fight for freedom.

  12. Quoted message said:

    What does "buzz"ing mean? When they blaze by with only
    about 3 inches of space between you?

    Yes. There are no set definitions for speed and distance
    though. People have different perceptions of what is
    appropriate or not. It's too close and too fast, and they
    wouldn't do it to their own kid (or other family member)
    on a bike.

    Wayne

  13. Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    1) gives cars and cyclists alike a clear demarcation where
    the cyclists know the cars almost certainly won't enter
    their path and the cars know vice versa.

    But cars do enter the bike lane at intersections, and
    cyclists must leave the bike lane at intersections. The
    sooner these lateral movements on intersection approach
    occur, the less likely road users are to surprise or confuse
    one antother. But the stripes tend to inhibit proper
    destination positioning.

    Quoted message said:

    This is a great confidence booster for cyclists not yet
    ready for the exhiliration of feeling a car judge the gap
    _perfectly_, and not knock them off their bike with their
    mirror by a couple of inches.

    The stripe doesn't increase the distance at which drivers
    pass cyclists. The usable pavement width is what determines
    how far over drivers can and do move when overtaking.
    However, when the bike lane collects debris, cyclists who
    stay out of it now have less usable pavement to share with
    motorists. And I think it's nasty to put a segregation
    stripe right next to where experienced cyclists will be
    putting their tires - that provides them no wiggle room.

    I've been cycling in travel lanes that are 16' to 20' wide
    for years. I've never been passed at uncomfortable distance
    on these roads. Our city police crash reports show no
    overtaking collisions involving cyclists on roads with
    lanes wider than 12 feet for as many years as data has been
    kept. But last year the city started dividing the 16'+
    lanes into a bike lane and a defacto car lane, and that's
    when the problems (debris, close passes, harassment of
    cyclists) started.

    Quoted message said:

    2) by narrowing the roadway, it has a natural cautioning
    and slowing effect on the cars. Because they perceive
    that they can't just wander from ditch to median now,
    the drivers stay between the lines.

    There is substantial empirical data showing otherwise, that
    the stripes alone don't slow traffic. But drivers do slow
    down when passing cyclists, compared to where there are no
    cyclists. Drivers tend to slow down more adn provide more
    space when passing cyclists in wide outside lanes than
    where there are bike lanes striped in the same total
    pavement width.

    Most of the often-quoted rhetoric in favor of bike lane
    stripes compares apples to oranges, i.e. it compares not-as-
    wide lanes on busy high-speed thoroughfares to really wide
    bike lane/travel lane combinations on quieter 2-lane
    roads, or it compares the speeds on one road with one lane
    design to the speeds on a different type of road with a
    different lane design. The best approach for scientific
    comparison is to add a stripe to a 16'+ outside lane and
    compare before/after data. When this is done to a typical
    street, it turns out that the motor vehicle speeds don't
    decrease (sometimes they increase), more debris
    accumulates where cyclists ride, and there is no
    improvement in cyclist safety.

    I think that on really high speed highways with very few
    junctions it is possible that the stripe may have net
    benefits, but in general, operational conditions are
    primarily determined by total pavement width. The
    stripes are, at best, a waste of money and effort on
    ordinary streets.

    -Steve Goodridge

  14. "R15757" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Good points. But I think the novices that ride in the DZ
    in the bike lane


    are

    Quoted message said:

    going to ride in the DZ if there is no bike lane. They
    will ride there until they get doored, or until some more
    experienced rider convinces them not to.


    I

    Quoted message said:

    don't think the presence of the lane is what keeps them to
    the right, necessarily.

    This is the usual argument, as well as pointing out that
    there's an ordinance against opening a door in a cyclist's
    path. I don't buy either one. Bad bike lanes encourage
    people to ride where they shouldn't and causes motorists to
    expect them there too. They provide the illusion of safety
    while creating a very real hazard.

    Quoted message said:

    Striping the DZ with, say, red paint made from the blood
    of doored cyclists would have positive effects on cyclist
    and driver behavior.

    I think that's a work in progress.

  15. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    1) gives cars and cyclists alike a clear demarcation where
    the cyclists know the cars almost certainly won't enter
    their path and the cars know vice versa. This is a
    great confidence booster for cyclists not yet ready for
    the exhiliration of feeling a car judge the gap
    _perfectly_, and not knock them off their bike with
    their mirror by a couple of inches.

    A friend was just struck & seriously injured outside of
    Tucson, riding to the right of the fog line. A paint stripe
    won't protect you. I usually ride to the left of the fog
    line, the closer the cars pass, the further left I move.

  16. "Steven Goodridge" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Tell that to Dana Laird's family.

    I took my 14 YO son along the stretch where she was struck
    just to show him how not to use a bike lane.

    Quoted message said:

    If the DOT knows that bike lanes will attract novices, and
    some portion of the bike lane is dangerous to use, then
    the DOT should mark off that portion to discourage novice
    cyclists from riding too far right. The bike lane should
    start at that position, outside the door zone.

    The mentioned lanes in Cambridge, MA should be
    considered no-biking lanes, not biking lanes. In long
    stretches the entire width of the lane is within
    striking distance of doors.

  17. "Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I have some direct experience that contrasts bike lane and
    non-bike lane riding. I have almost never been "buzzed",
    honked at, or yelled at when riding in a bike lane. I am
    regularly "buzzed", honked at, and yelled at by motorists
    on roads without a bike lane.

    Sounds like a problem better solved with education
    than paint.

  18. Wayne Pein said:

    You make the mistake of ascribing correlation with
    causality. Perhaps the motorist buzzed you because in his
    distorted mind you were not where you were supposed to be:
    on a road with bike lanes.

    The motorist buzzed us because he wanted us to know that
    riding two abreast is naughty. When I caught up with him, he
    tried to explain that to me. I informed him of his error,
    and told him the next time he used his vehicle to threated a
    cyclist, he should expect a more harsh treatment.

    The irony: he claimed to be an avid cyclist, a member of the
    local Bicycle Coalition *and* Western Wheelers.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  19. Curtis L. Russell said:

    Really? Because if you ride at the far left of the lane,
    you are out of reach?

    Yes, really. A door zone bike lane, to my mind, is one that
    you can't avoid the door zone without leaving the bike lane.
    There are plenty of that type to be avoided. If the space
    from the car edge to the bike lane striping is 5 or more
    feet, riding safely in the bike lane is not a problem. Just
    because the door zone extends into a bike lane does not
    automatically create a door zone bike lane.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  20. Quoted message said:

    What does "buzz"ing mean? When they blaze by with only
    about 3 inches of space between you?

    You guessed it. The game, as far as I can tell, is to pass
    by as closely as possible, without actual contact. High
    speed scores more points.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

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