FINA start rules

So is this the same interpretation as is used in Austrailia
(a start being defined as any movement after the "Take Your
Marks" command)? I know from attending meets in Canada
(other than Masters and novice meets) that this
interpretation is actively enforced and am wondering if it
was defined by the national federation or came from FINA.

Dan

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Also interesting that none of the situations use entry
into the water as a definition of a start. Rather, they
use whether the swimmer moves before

the

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start.

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Found this document on the Canadian Swimming website:

swimming.ca0C3CE59D88804C108Open ↗
6A2DF9BEEA6A589.p

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df

It would be interesting to see if Austrailia has
something similar

(didn't

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see anything on the FINA site - wonder if there exists a
rules interpretation document for international meets).
Starting on page 8 of

the

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above document are situations for discussion. Basically,
according to

this,

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if the Thorpe falling in scenario had happened in
Canada, he may or may

not

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have been dq'd depending mainly on the starter's and
referee's judgement

but

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Situation 1 suggests DQ.

Dan

"TRPLATT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040406213053.08277.00000908@mb-
m02.aol.com...

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Here are the rules governing the start of swimming
races from the FINA

web

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site. Have fun!

TRP

SW 4 THE START

SW 4.1 The start in Freestyle, Breaststroke, Butterfly
and Individual

Medley

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races shall be with a dive. On the long whistle (SW
2.1.5) from the

referee the

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swimmers shall step onto the starting platform and
remain there. On

the

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starter's command "take your marks", they shall
immediately take up a

starting

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position with at least one foot at the front of the
starting

platforms.

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The

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position of the hands is not relevant. When all
swimmers are

stationary,

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the

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starter shall give the starting signal.

SW 4.2 The start in Backstroke and Medley Relay races
shall be from

the

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water.

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At the referee's first long whistle (SW 2.1.5), the
swimmers shall

immediately

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enter the water. At the Referee's second long whistle
the swimmers

shall

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return

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without undue delay to the starting position (SW 6.1).
When all

swimmers

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have

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assumed their starting positions, the starter shall
give the command

"take

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your

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marks". When all swimmers are stationary, the starter
shall give the

starting

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signal.

SW 4.3 In Olympic Games, World Championships and other
FINA events the

command

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"Take your marks" shall be in English and the start
shall be by

multiple

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loudspeakers, mounted one at each starting platform.

SW 4.4 Any swimmer starting before the starting signal
has been given,

shall be

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disqualified. If the starting signal sounds before the

disqualification

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is

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declared, the race shall continue and the swimmer or
swimmers shall be disqualified upon completion of the
race. If the disqualification is

declared

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before the starting signal, the signal shall not be
given, but the

remaining

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swimmers shall be called back and start again.

I don't have an Australian documents about the
interpretation of the rules other than the masters rules
from aussimasters.com.auRules October 2003.pdfOpen ↗
In SW11.3 it includes a clarification Clarification: If a
swimmer loses his balance on the blocks and falls in before
the start signal is given, the Referee may declare this a
technical false start

These are a totally separate set of rules to what the
amateur (i.e elite) swimmers use. Unfortunately the
Australian swimming web site does not seem to include any
rules. But it looks as though the situation might be that
different national organisations use different
interpretations of the base FINA rules.

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So is this the same interpretation as is used in
Austrailia (a start being defined as any movement after
the "Take Your Marks" command)? I know from attending
meets in Canada (other than Masters and novice meets)
that this interpretation is actively enforced and am
wondering if it was defined by the national federation or
came from FINA.

Dan

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also interesting that none of the situations use entry
into the water as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

definition of a start. Rather, they use whether the
swimmer moves before

the

Quoted message said:

start.

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Found this document on the Canadian Swimming website:

swimming.ca0C3CE59D88804C108Open ↗
6A2DF9BEEA6A589.p

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

df

It would be interesting to see if Austrailia has
something similar

(didn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see anything on the FINA site - wonder if there exists
a rules interpretation document for international
meets). Starting on page 8

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

above document are situations for discussion.
Basically, according to

this,

Quoted message said:

if the Thorpe falling in scenario had happened in
Canada, he may or

may

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not

Quoted message said:

have been dq'd depending mainly on the starter's and
referee's

judgement

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but

Quoted message said:

Situation 1 suggests DQ.

Dan

"TRPLATT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040406213053.08277.00000908@mb-
m02.aol.com...
> Here are the rules governing the start of swimming
> races from the

FINA

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Quoted message said:

web

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> site. Have fun!
>
> TRP
>
> SW 4 THE START
>
> SW 4.1 The start in Freestyle, Breaststroke,
> Butterfly and

Individual

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Medley
> races shall be with a dive. On the long whistle (SW
> 2.1.5) from the
referee the
> swimmers shall step onto the starting platform and
> remain there. On

the

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> starter's command "take your marks", they shall
> immediately take up

a

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starting
> position with at least one foot at the front of the
> starting

platforms.

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The
> position of the hands is not relevant. When all
> swimmers are

stationary,

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the
> starter shall give the starting signal.
>
>
>
> SW 4.2 The start in Backstroke and Medley Relay
> races shall be from

the

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water.
> At the referee's first long whistle (SW 2.1.5), the
> swimmers shall
immediately
> enter the water. At the Referee's second long
> whistle the swimmers

shall

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return
> without undue delay to the starting position (SW
> 6.1). When all

swimmers

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have
> assumed their starting positions, the starter shall
> give the command

"take

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your
> marks". When all swimmers are stationary, the
> starter shall give the
starting
> signal.
>
>
>
> SW 4.3 In Olympic Games, World Championships and
> other FINA events

the

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command
> "Take your marks" shall be in English and the start
> shall be by

multiple

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> loudspeakers, mounted one at each starting platform.
>
>
>
> SW 4.4 Any swimmer starting before the starting
> signal has been

given,

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shall be
> disqualified. If the starting signal sounds before
> the

disqualification

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is

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> declared, the race shall continue and the swimmer or
> swimmers shall

be

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> disqualified upon completion of the race. If the
> disqualification is
declared
> before the starting signal, the signal shall not be
> given, but the
remaining
> swimmers shall be called back and start again.
>
>

jtaylor said:

Martin W. Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Um, that's wrong. One of the rules is that officials
determine the

meaning

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of words that are not explicitly defined.

It isn't wrong. O f course the officials determine the
meanings of the words they use, so it doesn't change
anything I wrote at all.

Which rule is that, by the way?

fina.orgswimrules.htmlOpen ↗

SW 1.1 - the very first one.

Mine says :

SW 1.1 The Management Committee appointed by the governing
body shall have jurisdiction over all matters not assigned
by the rules to the referee, judges or other officials and
shall have power to postpone events and give directions
consistent with rules adopted for conducting any event.

Is that incomplete? It doesn't say anything about the
definitions of words, and it says the management committee
shall have jurisdiction over all matters not assigned by the
rules to the referee, judges, or other officials. The
management committee is separate from the meet officials.

Still, your remark doesn't change the argument.

martin

jtaylor said:

Colin Priest <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eBTdc.3382$ED.599@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

That isn't what SW 1.1 says. That rule is about the
committee managing a meet.

Of course it is. "all matters" and "give directions
consistent with rules" is what you need to understand as
giving them this power.

It doesn't give the officials that power. It gives the
management committee that power, which is different from
what you said. And besides, they still have to define start.
Since they haven't defined start, apparently, then the
common sense definition must be the one in use, and in that
case, Thorpe didn't start.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been disqualified. I'm on
record as saying I think Stevens should swim the 400. My
point is that, according to the rules, Thorpe was
disqualified because the starter *decided* that Thorpe had
started before the gun, *decided* to report this as an
infraction to the referee, and the referee *decided* to
disqualify Thorpe. According to the rules, the starter
could have chosen not to report the incident to the
referee. The starter could have called the start back and
restarted the race.

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Have you ever been an official, or a coach, and dealt with
a protest? In either case, if I or my swimmer were also
involved, I'd be worried.

I have.

martin

jtaylor said:

Colin Priest <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Cm3ec.3938$ED.3185@news-
server.bigpond.net.au...

Quoted message said:

Wrong again, according to SW2.1.1 it is the referee who
is charged with these powers, not the management
committee. The referee "shall enforce all rules and
decisions of FINA and shall decide all questions relating
to the actual conduct of the meet, and event or the
competition, the final settlement of which is not
otherwise covered by the rules".

Good enough under either rule, then. The officials decide
the meaning of words in the rules not explicitly defined -
which was my point with which you disagreed.

But your argument was wrong. The management committee
has the power you were talking about. The starter and
the referee were not obligated to disqualify Thorpe in
this case.

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Has Thorpe retained a lawyer then? He might try the one
that Tonya Harding used, or that drug-cheating track(?)
star from the US a while back...if the Aus authorities
are craven enough then goodness knows, he might even
swim the 400.

It *is* their decision, after all.

martin

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

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gwydion said:

Martin W. Smith said:

The need for a rule change was that swimmers were using
their false start in lower level meets as a way to just
get in the water and loosen up. I did it a few times
myself. It began slowing down already glacial swim
meets. Otherwise there was no reason to disallow a
single false start per race.

Way back I when I swam competitively, a single false
start was allowed by each swimmer. There was a very
complex set of head games that went on, trying to use the
false starts to distract other competitors. At times, you
would see team mates do successive false starts to try to
pull a key swimmer from the other team off. Even with one
false start in total per heat, I think you would have the
same issue with head games. I think that this kind of game-
playing is the real reason for the no false starts rule.

Those were the days. That behavior was stopped, though,
when the one-false-start-per-race ammedment was added.

I prefer the no-false-start rule myself, but I think the
starter should use the power he has, as stated in the
rules, to call the start back and not disqualify a swimmer
for a situation like the one in Oz.

I agree with the no-false-start rule too, but I don't think
there's a need for any interpretation on the part of the
starter. IMHO 99 out of 100 false starts... ranging from
"flops" like Thorpe's to no-kidding racing dives are the
result of a competitor trying to gain an advantage. The only
difference is the means by which their attempt at doing so
decomposes. This doesn't make them a "cheat" - they're just
playing the game, but by doing so they expose themselves to
certain consequences that they should accept - much as
Thorpe did, to his credit.

- Al