Running vs. Cycling up steep hills?

Quoted message said:

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above LA
where I've never been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton Canyon
bridge to Henninger flats. (when younger I did it in 24
minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Any idea of what the distance and elevation gain are on the
road you describe?

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved" -
Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

It's about 2.4 miles up and 1,400 ft of climb (starts at
1000 elevation), according to my trail book.

--Dan

"Chris Neary" <[email hidden] > wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above
LA where I've

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton Canyon bridge to
Henninger flats.

(when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

younger I did it in 24 minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Any idea of what the distance and elevation gain are on
the road you describe?

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved"
- Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level

will

Quoted message said:

beat an equally talented biker?

Many years ago the fastest time up Mt Washington, NH, was a
runner, but it is now a cyclist. So that gradient would be
close to the steepness where they are equal.

Bruce

OK, so it works out to about 11% average.

Your average speed when you were younger was 6 MPH.

I rarely ride on unpaved trails, so I can't easily
compare my bike speeds to your running speeds. But on
pavement, my middle-aged, so-so climber body would
probably average 7 to 8 MPH.

I'd expect a pro climber could double that speed.

I don't know if there are grades where a runner can climb
faster than a rider, but I guarantee they are steeper than
the section in your example.

Regards,

Chris

Quoted message said:

It's about 2.4 miles up and 1,400 ft of climb (starts at
1000 elevation), according to my trail book.

--Dan

"Chris Neary" <[email hidden] > wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above
LA where I've

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton Canyon bridge to
Henninger flats.

(when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

younger I did it in 24 minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Any idea of what the distance and elevation gain are on
the road you describe?

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you
ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I loved"
- Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dan Stumpus said:

I'm a runner (brother Bob is a mtn bike racer in Aspen),
and the question came up on the rec.running list:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level will beat an equally talented biker?

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above LA
where I've never been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton Canyon
bridge to Henninger flats. (when younger I did it in 24
minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Is this just because I've only encountered weekenders, and
not racers?

I haven't done that climb but now I will definitely have to
try it and see.

I used to ride a mountain bike in the Ashland watershed in
southern Oregon in the 1980s where being passed by Ric Sayre
was an occasional phenomenon, but that is a case where there
was a huge gap in fitness between him and the rest of the
us. Some types of trails definitely favor the runner.

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a runner (brother Bob is a mtn bike racer in Aspen),
and the question came up on the rec.running list:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level

will

Quoted message said:

beat an equally talented biker?

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above
LA where I've

never

Quoted message said:

been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton Canyon bridge to
Henninger flats.

(when

Quoted message said:

younger I did it in 24 minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Is this just because I've only encountered weekenders, and
not racers?

There are some steep sections of hills I can run faster than
I can ride.

But, I'm a better runner than cyclist.

a.

Chris Neary said:

OK, so it works out to about 11% average.

I rarely ride on unpaved trails, so I can't easily compare
my bike speeds to your running speeds. But on pavement, my
middle-aged, so-so climber body would probably average 7
to 8 MPH.

8 mph up an 11% grade? Really? That's 77 vertical ft/minute,
or 1400 meters/hour. That would put you at or near the front
of the pro peloton, which is hard to believe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd expect a pro climber could double that speed.

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only about 10
mph up an 11% grade.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

"Paul Southworth" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I haven't done that climb but now I will definitely have
to try it and see.

It's a good grind, by man or mechanical beast. If you want
to go all the way to the summit (10 miles and 4,500 vertical
feet), my best at age 52 is
2:00:34 from the parking lot.

Let me know how you do.

Quoted message said:

I used to ride a mountain bike in the Ashland watershed in
southern Oregon in the 1980s where being passed by Ric
Sayre was an occasional phenomenon, but that is a case
where there was a huge gap in fitness between him and the
rest of the us.

That must have been very cool..

--Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

I'm a runner (brother Bob is a mtn bike racer in Aspen),
and the question came up on the rec.running list:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level will beat an equally talented biker?

There are sections where I run in the San Gabriels above
LA where I've never been passed by a biker, eg, Eaton
Canyon bridge to Henninger flats. (when younger I did it
in 24 minutes, when my vo2 max was 76)

Is this just because I've only encountered weekenders, and
not racers?

If a hill is steep enough, a runner is faster than a
cyclist. I've often been passed by runners on certain steep
sections of trail -- but then I would pass them just beyond
the crest, and leave them far behind.

According to a Shimano engineer I talked to, the lowest gear
for the original XTR group was set at the point where an
elite racer would be faster if they dismounted and
walked/ran, cyclocross style.

If you think about it, the mechanics of cyclists and runners
become more similar on steeper grades, but the runner is not
saddled with 25-30 LB of bike. So it makes perfect sense
that a runner would be faster at some point of steepness.

Matt O.

Terry Morse said:

Chris Neary said:

OK, so it works out to about 11% average.

I rarely ride on unpaved trails, so I can't easily
compare my bike speeds to your running speeds. But on
pavement, my middle-aged, so-so climber body would
probably average 7 to 8 MPH.

8 mph up an 11% grade? Really? That's 77 vertical
ft/minute, or 1400 meters/hour. That would put you at or
near the front of the pro peloton, which is hard to
believe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd expect a pro climber could double that speed.

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only about
10 mph up an 11% grade.

Three of us did a few miles of 11% grade the other day. I
don't remember the average (I can get it from my friend),
but IIRC it was like 6 MPH. This hill started out
gradually then got steeper, but overall I think the grade
was about 11%.

BTW, for anyone planning to do the Mountains of Misery next
month, this section, Jameson Mt. Road, will leave you
begging for mercy!

mountainsofmisery.commountainsofmisery.comOpen ↗

Matt O.

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm a runner (brother Bob is a mtn bike racer in Aspen),
and the question came up on the rec.running list:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level will beat an equally talented biker?

I would think so, but don't know what that point would be.
100% slope, maybe? <GGG>

....

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the newsgroups if possible).

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message -"]news:[email hidden]-
rthlink.net...

Quoted message said:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a
given talent level

will

Quoted message said:

beat an equally talented biker?

Many years ago the fastest time up Mt Washington, NH, was
a runner, but it is now a cyclist. So that gradient would
be close to the steepness where they are equal.

Mt. Washington averages 12% over the 7+ miles of road,
with the finishing pitch at 22%, and several other
pitches at 16-18%

....

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the newsgroups if possible).

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Chris Neary said:

OK, so it works out to about 11% average.

I rarely ride on unpaved trails, so I can't easily
compare my bike speeds to your running speeds. But on
pavement, my middle-aged, so-so climber body would
probably average 7 to 8 MPH.

8 mph up an 11% grade? Really? That's 77 vertical
ft/minute, or 1400 meters/hour. That would put you at or
near the front of the pro peloton, which is hard to
believe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd expect a pro climber could double that speed.

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only about
10 mph up an 11% grade.

Over what kind of distance? I can do that on some of the
short hills around my house, but can't keep it up for long.

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David Kerber said:

Terry Morse said:

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only about
10 mph up an 11% grade.

Over what kind of distance? I can do that on some of
the short hills around my house, but can't keep it up
for long.

Over distances typical in a mountain stage of the Tour de
France. Over a very short distance, like 1 km, a pro can
manage better than 10 mph. In the recent Flech Wallone race,
Davide Rebellin rode the final 1 km (an 11.2% grade) to win
at an astounding 13.6 mph.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

Terry Morse said:

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only
about 10 mph up an 11% grade.

Over what kind of distance? I can do that on some of
the short hills around my house, but can't keep it up
for long.

Over distances typical in a mountain stage of the Tour de
France. Over a very short distance, like 1 km, a pro can
manage better than 10 mph. In the recent Flech Wallone
race, Davide Rebellin rode the final 1 km (an 11.2% grade)
to win at an astounding 13.6 mph.

Ok; that makes sense. I'm talking about distances of at most
a few hundred yards (meters); usually less than that.

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Dan Stumpus said:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level will beat an equally talented biker?

Running is not a "talent". It is the chief activity of
cockroaches and other untalented creatures. It is an
activity to be engaged in when required to avoid death or
serious blood loss. (But then, so are other undignified
activities, like losing one's bowels.)

As to whether a cyclist or some barefoot yokel would be
first to the top of the hill when, say, a tsunami
approaches, let's just hope we don't have to find out.

Chalo Colina

Dan Stumpus said:

I'm a runner (brother Bob is a mtn bike racer in Aspen),
and the question came up on the rec.running list:

On steep hills, Is there a point where a runner of a given
talent level will beat an equally talented biker?

Yes, there is. The hill has to be pretty steep, though.
Consider this: you can easily (well, not really easily) run
up stairs, but it is impossible to ride any real distance up
a hill sloped as high as stairs are. They run around 64%,
(7" step height for an 11" tread) more or less. 20% is
considered a very steep hill to ride up.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in
mathematics, I can assure _`\(,_ | you that mine are all
greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

Yes, there is. The hill has to be pretty steep, though.
Consider this: you can easily (well, not really easily) run
up stairs, but it is impossible to ride any real distance
up a hill sloped as high as stairs are. They run around
64%, (7" step height for an 11" tread) more or less. 20% is
considered a very steep hill to ride up.

It's all a matter of gearing. Nobody installs gears for this
sort of thing, for obvious reasons! Doesn't mean it couldn't
be done....

Quoted message said:

8 mph up an 11% grade? Really? That's 77 vertical
ft/minute, or 1400 meters/hour. That would put you at
or near the front of the pro peloton, which is hard
to believe.

You'd be right not to believe it - I had misremembered the
grade on my reference climb. It is actually closer to 8%.

The only reference I have for something closer to the
original question was climbing Metcalf Road (2 miles of 10%)
during the Tierra Bella Century on our tandem. Speed was
approximately 5 MPH, but we passed more riders than passed
us. It was a guilty pleasure to watch riders with double
chainrings suffer while we spun our 26 X 32.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd expect a pro climber could double that speed.

No way. The best climbers in the world can do only about 10
mph up an 11% grade.

As you noted elsewhere, that is based on a longer climb in a
stage race. You could probably add a MPH or two for the
climb in the original question.

Chris Neary [email hidden]

Chris & Tracey 1999 Co-Motion Speedster