Police Recommend Gutter Cycling?

"Stephen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi.

Earlier today I was cycling on an A-road (no cycle path)
in Stockport. I was trying to stay roughly a metre from
the kerb, but also but may have been slightly further from
the kerb to avoid numerous drain covers, manhole covers,
potholes and parked cars further down the road.

A police van passes me and briefly toots his horn. Further
down the road the policeman waves me over to stop. He says
to me that he thought I was too far out from the kerb and
that I should cycle as close as possible to the kerb, so
that cars can easily pass.

I told him that I thought he was wrong and explained to
him that I thought it would be more dangerous for me to be
too close to the kerb
- for avoiding drain covers and being visible to other
road users. He shrugged his shoulders and that was that
- I was back on my way.

Have I been doing the right thing? What should I say if I
get stopped by police again? Should I take it as far as
making a complaint if they are wrong? I could do with some
advice and words of reassurance.

I only recently took up cycling (in adulthood) a year ago
when I spent six months in Germany. Over there cycling was
very pleasurable and hassle free - here in the UK it's not
been such a happy experience for
me.

Good grief! If it were me, I imagine Friday would have
concluded in a cell. You were right. Make that complaint!

--
Mike W

"Stephen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi.

Earlier today I was cycling on an A-road (no cycle path)
in Stockport. I was trying to stay roughly a metre from
the kerb, but also but may have been slightly further from
the kerb to avoid numerous drain covers, manhole covers,
potholes and parked cars further down the road.

A police van passes me and briefly toots his horn. Further
down the road the policeman waves me over to stop. He says
to me that he thought I was too far out from the kerb and
that I should cycle as close as possible to the kerb, so
that cars can easily pass.

I told him that I thought he was wrong

He was very wrong.

tinyurl.com32qh5Open ↗

This is from the Department for transport website, w-w-Open ↗
ww.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/d-
ft_rdsafety_504539.hcsp and to quote the relevant part:-

Cyclists ride away from the kerb, not to annoy motorists but
to: avoid drains, potholes and debris be seen as they come
to junctions with side roads discourage drivers from
squeezing past when it's too narrow

And also:-

Be visible. Ride well clear of the kerb, wear bright
clothing, and always use lights after dark or in poor day-
time visibility.

Which seems pretty darn conclusive to me.

Take Plod's number, and ask which station he is from, and
ring up and speak to the duty officer. Failing that, look
up constabulary in the phone book and speak to the road
safety manager. Getting the registration of the van is a
good backup.

Also, by the way

liverpool.gov.ukliverpool.gov.ukOpen ↗
Transport/Cycling_in_Liverpool/training.asp

Quoted message said:

and explained to him that I thought it would be more
dangerous for me to be too close to the kerb
- for avoiding drain covers and being visible to other
road users. He shrugged his shoulders and that was that
- I was back on my way.

Have I been doing the right thing? What should I say if I
get stopped by police again? Should I take it as far as
making a complaint if they are wrong? I could do with some
advice and words of reassurance.

You are absolutely in the right, and ring the local police
station. asap.

E

"Stephen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I told him that I thought he was wrong and explained to
him that I thought it would be more dangerous for me to be
too close to the kerb
- for avoiding drain covers and being visible to other
road users. He shrugged his shoulders and that was that
- I was back on my way.

When my brother was side-swiped on a near empty dual
carriageway that by-passes a village a police officer asked
why he wasn't using the cycle lane on the old road through
the village. He explained the deficiences of that route and
also that he was entitled to use the dual carriageway. The
policeman than made a comment about my bro riding too far
out on the dual carriageway which has those edge of lane
markings a little way out from the gutter. Again my brother
pointed to all the accumulated debris in the gutter and
also that he was clearly visible and there was plenty of
room on the road anyway. Seeing as my bro was awarded
damages and the van driver fined I think common sense
prevailed in the end.

Maybe the plodman was genuinely ignorant of cycling until
informed rather than just being ignorant for the sake of it.
--
Regards, Pete

Stephen said:

Have I been doing the right thing? What should I say if I
get stopped by police again?

sandwich why don't you [censored] and catch some real
criminals!"

He was wrong. There's nothing in the HC to say that cyclists
have to remain in the gutter - indeed, it's *dangerous* to
cycle in the gutter. Also backed up by "Cyclecraft".

Personally I think it's plod being an ignorant ass when it
comes to cycling. I'd have got his number and had a polite
letter off to plod HQ - pointing out *politely* the error
made. That way, said plod may not be such an ignorant ass
next time he's out on duty. Well, one can but hope.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam-- to get
correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel
is switched off--

My younger brother is a policeman and is surprisingly well
informed (sometimes annoyingly so!), I guess not all
policeman have the same level of knowledge of the codes and
laws that apply.

That he gave unsafe and dangerous advice is most serious,
you should write a polite letter to the chief constable to
raise your concerns, I'm sure he will take action.

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Personally I think it's plod being an ignorant ass when it
comes to cycling. I'd have got his number and had a polite
letter off to plod HQ - pointing out *politely* the error
made. That way, said plod may not be such an ignorant ass
next time he's out on duty. Well, one can but hope.

On 30 Apr 2004 16:26:24 -0700, [email hidden] (Stephen) wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

A police van passes me and briefly toots his horn. Further
down the road the policeman waves me over to stop. He says
to me that he thought I was too far out from the kerb and
that I should cycle as close as possible to the kerb, so
that cars can easily pass.

Did you get his number? You should write to the local
top cop and let them know advice is being given out
which is contrary to the Government's recommended
advanced cycling manual.

It's worth pointing out that the rule for cyclists is
essentially no different from that which applies to drivers.
And the judgement of the balance between safety and keeping
left is ours to make and nobody else's.

So yes, do write, and refer them to the relevant sections of
the HC and Cyclecraft; be polite, suggest that the plod no
doubt acted from the best of motives, but ask that they
ensure their constabules are better informed. A conciliatory
tone will undoubtedly work best.

Try emailing John Franklin (find him at
lesberries.co.uklesberries.co.ukOpen ↗) if you need a good key phrase
for your letter. John is quite approachable.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

[email hidden] (Stephen) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Have I been doing the right thing? What should I say if I
get stopped by police again? Should I take it as far as
making a complaint if they are wrong? I could do with some
advice and words of reassurance.

You were cycling correctly. It appears the cop who stopped
you accepted that he was mistaken in thinking your road
positioning was wrong. If you are stopped again by another
cop which is very unlikely, then a polite explanation of the
reasons cyclists don't hug the kerb will suffice. On the
other hand should the same cop stop you again in similiar
circumstances then note his shoulder number and make a
written complaint of harrassment. A couple of years ago a
similiar incident happened to me. Cycling two abreast on a
urban 30 mph road in the inside of two lanes (for traffic in
our direction)when a police van tooted and a red faced
driver screamed we were holding up traffic by being two
abreast. So we switched to single file but still had to ride
in the centre of the lane as it was too narrow for cars to
overtake us without using part of the outer lane anyway. So
we were still "holding up" the traffic. We were expecting to
get stopped then but the van drove off. Anyway thats the
only time anything like that has happened so your incident
is hopefully a one off. Iain C

On 1 May 2004 04:54:41 -0700 someone who may be [email hidden]
(iarocu) wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

You were cycling correctly.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

It appears the cop who stopped you accepted that he was
mistaken in thinking your road positioning was wrong.

It appears to me that the police officer did not accept that
he was wrong. If he had accepted this then he would probably
have apologised.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

It appears to me that the police officer did not accept
that he was wrong. If he had accepted this then he would
probably have apologised.

The officer involved sounds (from the original post) to have
been on a bit of a power trip (it's the uniform that does
it!). Even if he had accepted to himself that he was wrong I
think it would be unlikely that he would lower himself to
apologise to some common little oik of a cyclist.

Graeme

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

Quoted message said:

It appears to me that the police officer did not accept
that he was wrong. If he had accepted this then he would
probably have apologised.

Police officers apologising for being wrong? What are the
chances? :-)

--
Simon M.

(Stephen) said:

the policeman waves me over to stop. He says to me that he
thought I was too far out from the kerb

Are you by any chance black / Irish / crusty / cycling at a
time of day when "decent" citizens are tucked up in bed ?

I don't mind being stopped by Plod for being suspicious
half as much as I do the fatuous excuses they invent for
having done so.

(Stephen) said:

A police van passes me and briefly toots his horn. Further
down the road the policeman waves me over to stop. He says
to me that he thought I was too far out from the kerb and
that I should cycle as close as possible to the kerb, so
that cars can easily pass.

Same happened to me. A long conversation ensued, where
plod was unwilling to learn from my superior knowledge on
the matter.

I took HIS details, and a long correspondence followed -
with his inspector. I got nowhere. I complained to head
office (Hants). There, I got some more understanding words,
but it was clear that they were unwilling to back down.

Next time, rather than engaging in intelligent discussion, I
shall suggest they get on with some proper police work, then
I shall ride away.

To hell with them.

in message <[email hidden]>, Stephen

(') said:

Hi.

Earlier today I was cycling on an A-road (no cycle path)
in Stockport. I was trying to stay roughly a metre from
the kerb, but also but may have been slightly further from
the kerb to avoid numerous drain covers, manhole covers,
potholes and parked cars further down the road.

A police van passes me and briefly toots his horn. Further
down the road the policeman waves me over to stop. He says
to me that he thought I was too far out from the kerb and
that I should cycle as close as possible to the kerb, so
that cars can easily pass.

Well, he was wrong and his instruction was directly contrary
to the government's official advice. Get a copy of
'cyclecraft' - the government's official guide to cycling
technique - from HMSO, and read about the 'primary riding
position'. At 1m from the kerb you were too close to it, not
too far from it.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more
a bogus ;; asylum seeker

On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:35:06 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Well, he was wrong

No, he was right. People in uniforms are _always_ right.

Note the number and write to his chief constable if you must
(who will probably reply in patois or rap), but starting to
argue face-to-face with Plod is just asking for trouble.

Hi.

Andy Dingley said:

Are you by any chance black / Irish / crusty / cycling
at a time of day when "decent" citizens are tucked up
in bed ?

It was at around 1745 yesterday and I have no reason to
believe they were deliberately harassing me (except for
being a cyclist, anyway). Although his comments make me feel
like I'm a second-class road user, I will presume he did it
in good faith - whether he was wrong or not.

iarocu said:

It appears the cop who stopped you accepted that he was
mistaken in thinking your road positioning was wrong.

You may be right, but as far as I'm concerned shrugging and
not disagreeing with me is not a clear sign of admission of
his mistake.

Just zis Guy said:

Did you get his number? You should write to the local
top cop and let them know advice is being given out
which is contrary to the Government's recommended
advanced cycling manual.

I didn't get any of his details - that's one of those things
I only tend to think about when it's too late. If it happens
again I'll make sure I do. I'll see if I can make a
complaint/comment anyhow.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and links, which have
just confirmed what I originally thought (and what I have
read before).

There are many other things that I am unsure about and that
annoy me about cycling in the UK, but it was really
confounding when a police officer tells me to do something
which I know to be bad practice and dangerous (and which I
would expect (or maybe that should be 'hope'😉 the police to
stop me for).

Cheers.

Stephen.

It is a little known fact that some time ago the police
in the Stockport area had their sense of humor removed,
and during this process their common sense
unfortunately escaped.

To ride in the gutter is akin to pressing the self destruct
button, a definate NO NO. Take his advice and the next time
you meet may be when he attends the road traffic accident
you have just become.

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message

Quoted message said:

It appears to me that the police officer did not accept
that he was wrong. If he had accepted this then he would
probably have apologised.

Police officers apologising for being wrong? What are the
chances? :-)

--
Simon M.

On '''Friday 5pm'''. I T-boned my Vortex into a Skoda (not a
Country and Western song yet) that came out from a junction
on the left. The police officer told me not to worry as I
was put in the ambulance, he would see me later. After I was
extruded through A&E he came to my home at 10pm. He gave me
the details of the car etc and produced from his pocket my
back-light and cordless computer that he had taken from the
bike to 'keep safe'.

He said he was a cyclist and understood what had happened.
He had taken the 'totalled' bike to a secure car-recovery
center. I have not seen the bike yet but he said the forks
were smashed as well as my two mirrors on the end of my tri-
bars (rare eh?). So I don't know how the titanium frame
fared yet.....mmmmm.

I have sprained wrists, a bruised hip, knees and forarms. I
could of got up from the road but I wanted the driver to
experience the thought that he may have broken my neck or
could of killed me......"Now you see him"... "Now you know
what it feels like to possibly of killed someone" was what I
wanted him to think about whilst he lamely stroked my
shoulders.

I never said anything to him. But just as I was being taken
away I revealed my conciousness by a careless sarcastic
reply to "If I was in pain?"........."I've just crashed into
a car at 25mph please try to use your imagination" I let
slip in a David Brent kinda way.

Apparently just before I collided I had shouted "WAIT!!" not
once but twice really loudly so much so that the owner of
the chemists outside where it happened was able to tell the
police officer that he heard three loud noises, my two
shouts and the sound of a crash even though he never saw
anything. The driver fully admitted responsibility. He had
to because loads of people had seen it.

The car was halted half way across the road. I decided to
try and go round the rear but did not make it and hit the
rear door (Braking from about 25mph) at about 15mph. Over
the car I went and landed face down in the road. Even though
I did not land on my head I remember thinking when upside-
down in the air that I was pleased I was wearing my helmet.
The place went really quite. I think because I did not move
people thought I was dead. Very strangely not anybody came
to see if I was okay for what seemed and embarrassingly long
time. Eventually the owner of the car got out and started to
pat my back in a gesture of apology and remorse cos the
crowd were getting ugly........(no not really) I was put in
neck brace and tookded away by ambulance.

This accident happened because the driver, after one cursory
look to the right, thought he had all the time in the world
and concentrated on looking to his left to time his entry
into the traffic. When I shouted he had no idea where the
noise was coming from. He had completely forgotten about
me....if he ever saw me.........

I was wearing a reflective gortex red jacket, sliver and
gold shades, silver helmet,reflective fingerless gloves and
a very keen interest in my sensory data input. Even though I
had a good idea that this person would come out in front of
me and even though I shouted "WAIT!!" at him twice and even
though I did brilliantly in reducing my injuries and even
though I was acutely aware of the irrational things drivers
do on a Friday afternoon I will be back on the road soon
seizing the carp with both hands........So, yea there are
some good cops too. Sean.

On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:32:34 +0100 someone who may be Andy Dingley
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

starting to argue face-to-face with Plod is just asking
for trouble.

It is. On the other hand letting arrogant fools get away
with their power fixations is also asking for even more
trouble in the long term.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.