Mimimum spoke wheels???

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about
a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

marc silva said:

Hello, Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some
of the minimum Spoke wheels out there?

Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How
well do they hold up?

Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

Thanks, Marc

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Marc Silva
Hello, Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some of
the minimum Spoke wheels out there?

Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well
do they hold up?

Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

Thanks, Marc

I come down on the side of wanting 32 or 36 spoke wheels for everyday riding. You can vary the ride quality a slight amount by going with thinner spokes, like DT Revolution. You can vary the ride quality a lot more with choice of tire. Durability is in favor of standard spoked wheels that have a quality build, in my opinion. I have not ridden minimal spoked wheels enough to give you my personal experience. However, I have ridden with many others who have broken a spoke, dented a rim, had some hub difficulties; and experienced significantly higher costs and down time with minimal spoked wheels.
I note that the racing team sponsored by Excel Sports rides Chirs King hubbed standard spoked wheels. I also note that they recommend 3 cross spoking pattern in their custom wheel build up.
There is a large marketing effort and response to minimal spoked wheels. I am not responding positively to the efforts, but most shops and many riders are. Many manufacturers are providing these wheels as standard equipment on their bicycles.

msdbek-<< Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some
of the minimum Spoke wheels out there? >><BR><BR> <<
Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well
do they hold up?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Propriatary parts, [censored] poor rear hub, expensive sppkes,
avarage at best build, not light, not aero-

<< Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed
for everybody' wheels are overmarketed and quite expensive,
when compared to a set of handbuilt wheels designed
specifically for you and your needs by a good wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and
get a well performing set of wheels.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

jim beam said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about
a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

How do you judge that? My impression is the tire masks
differences between wheels.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed
for everybody' wheels are overmarketed and quite
expensive, when compared to a set of handbuilt wheels
designed specifically for you and your needs by a good
wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and
get a well performing set of wheels.

I'd agree, with the one provision that most of the boutique
wheels have aerodynamic advantages, which might be important
if you're into time trialling.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

msdbek-<< Can anyone out there give me some opinions on
some of the minimum Spoke wheels out there? >><BR><BR> <<
Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How
well do they hold up?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Propriatary parts, [censored] poor rear hub, expensive sppkes,
avarage at best build, not light, not aero-

<< Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

See above with differences in hub quality. These 'designed
for everybody' wheels are overmarketed and quite
expensive, when compared to a set of handbuilt wheels
designed specifically for you and your needs by a good
wheelbuilder.

Find a good wheelbuilder and save hundreds of dollars and
get a well performing set of wheels.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Have to agree with Peter that top quality hand built wheels
are the best bang for the buck, and can be ³bomb proof².

I have Ksyriums on my cyclecross and they have held up well
for 3 years.

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub
bearings failed very early and my LBS had to get non
Bontrager (Shimano) bearings to fix it. Took almost 8
weeks to get bearings as bearings from Trek did not fix
the problem.

I lust after a set of Campagnolo Hyperon Wheels.
BUYcycling Mag says the list at $4,476 for the set, but
Colorado Cyclist says a little over $3K and they are
yours. What a savings!

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

H. M. Leary said:

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub
bearings failed very early and my LBS had to get non
Bontrager (Shimano) bearings to fix it. Took almost 8
weeks to get bearings as bearings from Trek did not fix
the problem.

Is your bike shop so unresourceful they can't open up the
Yellow Pages and find a local bearing supply?

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with a
regular Shimano or Campy hub.

Matt O.

On Sat, 08 May 2004 02:03:22 GMT, "marc silva"

may have said:

Hello, Can anyone out there give me some opinions on some
of the minimum Spoke wheels out there?

Ksyrium? Good for everyday training? Ride quality? How well
do they hold up?

Bontrager?

Shimano?

Campy?

From where I sit, based solely on the comments and
experiences of others, there seems to be no advantage
whatever for the typical rider, and significant
disadvantages in terms of durability, cost, weight,
serviceability, and ability to remain in use subsequent to a
spoke failure. (I will ignore the "coolness factor" that
seems inordinately important to some people, as it is not a
practical or measurable matter.)

Personally, I would continue to avoid anything below 28
spokes for any application except actual competition and
immediately pre-competition training usage by a high-level
rider whose physical conditioning difference from his or her
competition is known to be minimal or none.

To be competitive, concentrate on the *rider* first. Build
the bleeding-edge bike when the rider reaches that level. No
16-spoke wheel will make you Lance Armstrong, but a 16-spoke
wheel with one spoke broken will make you a pedestrian
unless you want to carry spare spokes and a wrench. With 32
or 36 spokes, the wheel seldom will go far enough out of
true with a single failure to cause a significant problem.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via
e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with
a regular

Shimano or

Quoted message said:

Campy hub.

"Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly
always with the freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are
usually fine, but the freehubs tend to be pretty sensitive
to water intrusion and wear. That's one area where the Hugi
hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

H. M. Leary said:

I have a Bontrager Race X Lite, Hugi hub. The rear hub
bearings failed very early and my LBS had to get non
Bontrager (Shimano) bearings to fix it. Took almost 8
weeks to get bearings as bearings from Trek did not fix
the problem.

Is your bike shop so unresourceful they can't open up the
Yellow Pages and

find

Quoted message said:

a local bearing supply?

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with
a regular

Shimano or

Quoted message said:

Campy hub.

Matt O.

just comparison between different wheelsets on the same
bike. [same tires, pressure, etc.]

for the record, i was not anticipating any difference, but
it's definitely there.

and i have to say, repetition of this "wheel deflection is
masked by tire deflection" statement is bizarre. "tire
deflection" is partly a function of contact area, so it
stands to reason that as area increases, deflection
decreases. that's why small radius bumps [like a small twig
for example] are virtually unnoticeable, but large radius
bumps, like pothole with comparatively small amplitude but a
curvature radius equal to that of your wheel, can impart
substantial shock - sufficient to bruise hands even. and
that's /without/ bottoming the tire on the rim.

the "tire deflection" statement also doesn't address why
cars with comparatively huge balloon tires, low running
pressures and suspension, /still/ need rubber bushings to
insulate suspension components from the body. /rate/ of
deflection is very much a part of the shock transmission
equation and simplistic "tires deflect more than the wheel"
statements don't do anything to enlighten.

dianne_1234 said:

jim beam said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about
a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

How do you judge that? My impression is the tire masks
differences between wheels.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, you wouldn't have had this problem at all with
a regular Shimano or Campy hub.

"Regular" hubs have their own share of problems, nearly
always with the freehub mechanism. The hub bearings are
usually fine, but the freehubs tend to be pretty sensitive
to water intrusion and wear. That's one area where the
Hugi hub (used by Bontrager) does quite well.

This is true, but I think you missed my point -- that
"regular" hubs can be pulled apart and serviced by anyone,
with tools and parts on hand in any bike shop (and in most
cyclists' garages). Even freehubs can usually be flushed and
relubed, and put right back into service. I don't know about
you, but I've been grounded more than once by a frozen
cartridge bearing. Even being resourceful enough to get new
ones from a local bearing supply, it's still a PITA compared
to servicing cup and cone.

I don't know about lately, but in the past Hugis were no
more reliable than Shimano hubs. Their unique ratchet
mechanism is stronger than tradidional pawls, which was the
original intent. But dirty water and mud can make them stick
just as with Shimano hubs, in fact this seemed more likely
with Hugi. I heard plenty of stuck-Hugi anecdotes back when
they were first popular. To be fair, stuck Hugi ratchets are
very easy to service, but OTOH the cartridge bearings are
less serviceable than cup and cone. Choose your poison.

However, Hugis are certainly a lot quieter these days, so
maybe the seals are better too.

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

The bearing issue you had is weird and does not reflect
our own real-world experiences (and we have sold many,
many hundreds of wheelsets & bikes with that wheelset). I
replaced my own bearings last year (with the standard ones
from Trek), but that was due to too much time in the rain,
not an issue with play.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

snip

This could bring up a whole new discussion.

How many of these wheelsets or even customers come back to
your shop for maintenance?

Do your mechanics load/unload the wheels as a check?

My LBS which is the largest Trek dealer in the East, sells
an awful lot of high end Treks as well as Litespeeds and
Moots. People around here will buy an $8000 custom bike like
most people would buy a Trek 1000. Lot of ³pro² racers in
here, too.

They are located halfway between New York and Washington, DC
in Wilmington,DE. Delaware does not charge a sales tax, so
many of their sales are to out of state customers who
probably don¹t return for ruotine maintenance.

But they are seeing around 1 of 8 Bontragers with this
problem. They went well above ³the call of duty² to fix my
wheel which now rides as smooth as glass.

In any event, Mike, many, many thanks for your interest and
your help.

The Happy Camper

HAND

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about
a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

They will be fine ... long as you stay where you can get
help easily. Once one of those spokes break, the wheel
cannot be ridden and you will need to SAG; not easy if you
are in the middle of farm country ;-) A friend of mine got
talked into these, not the 'cheap' metal ones, the froo-froo
carbon Dura-Ace jobs. She is not a racer, not a particularly
fast rider, but a friend convinced her they were the best
things ever. Then she had to stretch a new tire on them out
in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming - wheel diameter runs big,
so the Michelins required a lot of effort. Then in the
middle of the English countryside, near dusk, she broke a
spoke. Had to find a farmer to give her a ride to town. Bike
shops say 'no can do' to fixing that wheel. Buses will not
take bikes. Ooops! She finally got back to the states, got
it fixed, rode for a few months, then last month she blew
another one in the middle of nowhere, California. Had to
hitch a ride to the nearest town. She gave up on the wheels,
but unfortunately the person who talked her into those has
now convinced her that she should buy Bontrage Race-Lites.
Argghhhhh. Frying pan into the fire.

- rick

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The bearing issue you had is weird and does not reflect
our own real-world experiences (and we have sold many,
many hundreds of wheelsets & bikes with that wheelset). I
replaced my own bearings last year (with the standard ones
from Trek), but that was due to too much time in the rain,
not an issue with play.

Mike,

You need to have Bruno re-pack them more often ;-) I ride
in the same rain as you, but have not had any problems with
my Chris King, Ultegra, or Phil Wood hubs :-) I do re-pack
the Ultegras every few months, and water intrusion has not
been an issue.

- rick

Rick Warner said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for
about a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

They will be fine ... long as you stay where you can get
help easily. Once one of those spokes break, the wheel
cannot be ridden and you will need to SAG; not easy if
you are in the middle of farm country ;-) A friend of
mine got talked into these, not the 'cheap' metal ones,
the froo-froo carbon Dura-Ace jobs. She is not a racer,
not a particularly fast rider, but a friend convinced her
they were the best things ever. Then she had to stretch a
new tire on them out in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming -
wheel diameter runs big, so the Michelins required a lot
of effort. Then in the middle of the English countryside,
near dusk, she broke a spoke. Had to find a farmer to
give her a ride to town. Bike shops say 'no can do' to
fixing that wheel. Buses will not take bikes. Ooops! She
finally got back to the states, got it fixed, rode for a
few months, then last month she blew another one in the
middle of nowhere, California. Had to hitch a ride to the
nearest town.

No one showed her how to open up (or even disconnect if
necessary) her brake? Does one spoke really make it
IMPOSSIBLE to limp home?

Quoted message said:

She gave up on the wheels, but unfortunately the person
who talked her into those has now convinced her that she
should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying pan
into the fire.

Why? Standard spokes (albeit bladed), right?

Bill "Race Lites my everyday wheels; zero problems so far"
S.

well, /my/ R540's use bladed spokes but you could easily
substitute any standard spoke available at almost any bike
shop, so i don't see the need to ring alarm bells about not
being able to make a temporary fix. and any bike shop
declaring these wheels irreparable is absolutely
b.s.ing you.

i also don't see how spoke breakage is a failure that
"should" allow the rider to carry on as if nothing is wrong.
failed brake cables wouldn't fall into that category. nor
would chains. nor would freehub pawls, or chainwheel bolts,
or crank arm bolts, or.... just carry a $3 kevlar spare if
spoke breakage really is a concern.

Rick Warner said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i'm #210 and have been riding 16 spoke shimano's for about
a year now. no problems so far. noticably less road
vibration too.

They will be fine ... long as you stay where you can get
help easily. Once one of those spokes break, the wheel
cannot be ridden and you will need to SAG; not easy if you
are in the middle of farm country ;-) A friend of mine got
talked into these, not the 'cheap' metal ones, the froo-
froo carbon Dura-Ace jobs. She is not a racer, not a
particularly fast rider, but a friend convinced her they
were the best things ever. Then she had to stretch a new
tire on them out in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming - wheel
diameter runs big, so the Michelins required a lot of
effort. Then in the middle of the English countryside,
near dusk, she broke a spoke. Had to find a farmer to give
her a ride to town. Bike shops say 'no can do' to fixing
that wheel. Buses will not take bikes. Ooops! She finally
got back to the states, got it fixed, rode for a few
months, then last month she blew another one in the middle
of nowhere, California. Had to hitch a ride to the nearest
town. She gave up on the wheels, but unfortunately the
person who talked her into those has now convinced her
that she should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying
pan into the fire.

- rick

S o r n i said:

No one showed her how to open up (or even disconnect if
necessary) her brake? Does one spoke really make it
IMPOSSIBLE to limp home?

Not getting the picture now are we? The point is, they go so
far out of true, with even one broken spoke, that opening
the brake calipers does nothing useful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She gave up on the wheels, but unfortunately the person
who talked her into those has now convinced her that she
should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying pan
into the fire.

Why? Standard spokes (albeit bladed), right?

Bill "Race Lites my everyday wheels; zero problems so far"
S.

They are overpriced and underperforming; basically not worth
it IMO unless you are a serious weight wienie, and it is
equivocal even in that case. A good sold rim, sturdy hub,
and standard spokes with a good build are a much, much, much
better option for 99% of the road cyclists out there.

- rick

Rick Warner said:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 02:15:02 GMT, " S o r n i" <sorni@bite-

me.san.rr.com said:

No one showed her how to open up (or even disconnect if
necessary) her brake? Does one spoke really make it
IMPOSSIBLE to limp home?

Not getting the picture now are we? The point is, they go
so far out of true, with even one broken spoke, that
opening the brake calipers does nothing useful.

Condescending much? Still say riding a wobbly wheel beats
walking (hence, the DISCONNECT word).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She gave up on the wheels, but unfortunately the person
who talked her into those has now convinced her that
she should buy Bontrage Race-Lites. Argghhhhh. Frying
pan into the fire.

Why? Standard spokes (albeit bladed), right?

Bill "Race Lites my everyday wheels; zero problems so
far" S.

They are overpriced and underperforming; basically not
worth it IMO unless you are a serious weight wienie, and
it is equivocal even in that case. A good sold rim,
sturdy hub, and standard spokes with a good build are a
much, much, much better option for 99% of the road
cyclists out there.

Came stock on my bike; haven't touched 'em in 3500 or so
miles. Still, I agree that if buying and/or building a
wheelset, standard components are tough to beat.

Bill "then there are my Velomaxes (for long hilly rides
w/young racing types)" S.

" S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

No one showed her how to open up (or even disconnect if
necessary) her brake? Does one spoke really make it
IMPOSSIBLE to limp home?

It can. On a club ride a few weeks ago, one of the leaders
busted a spoke on her paired-spoke Shimano rear. Brake be
damned, the wheel wouldn't turn in the frame (a "good" but
by no means exotic Bianchi). Pity was, someone actually had
a fiber-fix spoke in his seatbag, but we couldn't figure out
a way to use it on this wacky wheel.

Peter Storey