Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

Luca-<< I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite >><BR><BR> << But at what point do you
continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to
satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Since a poor choice by a customer in the end ends up taking
more of our time to stand behind what we sold, which means
it costs us money, we generally don't do
it/sell it. If a 250 pound rider wants a light/low
number/thin spoke wheel, we say-sorry...try Excel.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Qui Si Parla Ca
Luca-<< I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite >><BR><BR> << But at what point do you
continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to
satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Since a poor choice by a customer in the end ends up taking
more of our time to stand behind what we sold, which means
it costs us money, we generally don't do
it/sell it. If a 250 pound rider wants a light/low
number/thin spoke wheel, we say-sorry...try Excel.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali

Good shops like Peter's take the time to build the wheels right and sell the appropriate solutions.
Many can lace up a wheel and many can sell "stuff", but a good shop takes pride in doing things right the first time.
The 2 shops in your friend's example need to learn that a wheel is not a collection of parts to be sold.
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Luke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

SCHNIP

Quoted message said:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue
to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you
patently refused to entertain a customer's request in
order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke

It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation...

If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often VERY
resistant to any suggestion the they may be wrong. Often
either you are calling them stupid or trying to sell them
something different because you make more money... even if
it is totally inappropriate. As an aside (and no refrence to
you or your post) one of the funniest things in retail is
the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who comes along with
the buyer to make sure he gets what he really needs. So you
usually end up with two people who don't know what they are
talking about trying to decide what to buy.

Often the only thing you can do is point out the problems he
"may" have and the things he may need to Worry about, then
suggest the option where he wont have to worry..

In the whole features vs. benefits discussion often the
greatest benefit you can sell a customer is "you wont have
to worry..." (Hell nobody wants to buy something they'll
have to worry about )

I only once had to refuse a customers request... He wanted
his bar ends mounted backwards ... pointing back towards him
.. and slighly down towards his knees. I told him why it was
a bad idea and told him that I would install them the
correct way but would not do what he wanted.. sombody in
town did though.

Finally .. I agree that the wheel he purchased was
definately not the best choice but the problems he's having
sound far more serious than I would have expected...
Unfortunatly since he is on to shop three with the same
wheel there is bugger all that can be done now.

So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28
spokes, and has problems with trueness. breaking spokes,
loosening spokes, etc. Sounds like a problem with the
initial build. If that wheel was disassembled and put back
together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very
confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just
fine. As a former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience
with unreliable OEM wheels that need truing and maintentance
all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket wheels (with fewer
spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe Young, and my
favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only commutes to work
on it, that ritchey wheel would have been fine had it been
put together right. In other words, the wheel WAS a suitable
choice. Sure not the best choice, but there is no excuse for
the kind of problems you described. If I bought a shoddily
constructed steel frame, I wouldn't get on a soapbox and
declare that steel frames are a bad choice for me.

Luke said:

I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group
has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose
because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging
otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel.
(One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact
designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced to
a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes
calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension
differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X.
And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of
mine who used this wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for
commuting. Just the sort of riding that would benefit from
bladed spokes 😉

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week:
Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or
so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel
build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel
was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin
with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a
such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by
the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following
failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On
both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie
wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation
by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using
straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise.
It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to
relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust
alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well
on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could
tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench.
Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved
properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt
it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work came
undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably.
This has since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's
part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold
him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A
LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about
a purchase and buyer should consider the info when
deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his
folly is free to squander his money and complicate his
life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate
bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to
serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you
patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order
to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke

Luke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group
has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose
because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice
urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel.
(One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact
designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced
to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes
calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke
tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced
2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound
friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized
Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would
benefit from bladed spokes 😉

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week:
Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or
so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel
build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel
was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin
with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a
such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by
the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following
failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On
both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie
wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation
by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using
straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise.
It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to
relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust
alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well
on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could
tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench.
Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved
properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who
rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work
came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36
preferably. This has since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's
part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold
him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A
LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about
a purchase and buyer should consider the info when
deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his
folly is free to squander his money and complicate his
life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate
bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue
to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you
patently refused to entertain a customer's request in
order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke

I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke
breakage problems. I called Ritchey and they said they said
some of the wheels were manufactured with defective spokes.
I sent the wheel back per their instructions, it was rebuilt
and I haven't broken a spoke since.

"Luke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group
has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose
because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice
urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel.
(One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact
designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced
to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes
calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke
tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced
2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound
friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized
Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would
benefit from bladed spokes 😉

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week:
Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or
so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel
build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel
was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin
with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a
such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by
the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following
failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On
both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie
wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation
by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using
straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise.
It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to
relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust
alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well
on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could
tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench.
Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved
properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who
rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work
came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36
preferably. This has since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's
part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold
him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A
LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about
a purchase and buyer should consider the info when
deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his
folly is free to squander his money and complicate his
life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate
bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue
to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you
patently refused to entertain a customer's request in
order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke

Unsound advice aside (I agree that some of us often buy what
don't need or even need to use) - Ritchey has had a problem
with some of their pre-built wheelsets a year or two ago. It
had to do with exactly this, continued spoke failure. And
the problem apparently had something to do with the hubs
(bad finish at the drill-holes?) This has been fixed since,
and even the one you mentioned is a lower-spoke wheel,
should not present such a continued problem...

Jan

Luke said:

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate
bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to
have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue
to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you
patently refused to entertain a customer's request in
order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

As Jesse Ventura observed, "you can't legislate against
stupidity." All the shop owner can do is warn the buyer that
this product is not well suited to the purpose. Most
customers will heed your advice; the ones in Lycra will heed
what they read on the Internet or in bike rags.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke
breakage problems. I called Ritchey and they said they
said some of the wheels were manufactured with defective
spokes. I sent the wheel back per their instructions, it
was rebuilt and I haven't broken a spoke since.

I have a pair of Ritchey Pro wheels (20/28 like the OP's)
and have never had a problem with them. I'm running 180-190#
right now 'cause my back's jacked.

Now if I'd bought the WCS version (20/24), I may have had a
few more issues, but I was smarter than that.

M

In article SG3pc.47997$Z%5.32617@okepread01 said:

So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28
spokes, and has problems with trueness. breaking spokes,
loosening spokes, etc. Sounds like a problem with the
initial build. If that wheel was disassembled and put back
together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very
confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just
fine. As a former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience
with unreliable OEM wheels that need truing and
maintentance all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket wheels
(with fewer spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe
Young, and my favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only
commutes to work on it, that ritchey wheel would have been
fine had it been put together right. In other words, the
wheel WAS a suitable choice.

I disagree with the assertion that this wheel is suitable
for the purpose and circumstances attending it's use by my
friend. With it's bladed spokes and a lower spoke count the
Ritchie obviously was not designed with the intent of
carting a Clydesdale and his luggage to work over rough city
streets. Time trialling or racing is it's enviroment. Why
would it be considered appropriate if it's to used in a
manner counter to that which it was designed for?

That the wheel was initially built - and rebuilt - poorly
was alluded to in the original post. No argument there. And
yes, you can commute on
it. Just as you can - to overstate the case - buy a full
suspension MTB equipped with knobbies for the express
purpose of riding exclusively on asphalt. (Quite a
common sight) Nothing wrong with it. Nothing that much
right with it either.

Quoted message said:

Sure not the best choice,

Not even a good choice. That option would presume using a
component for it's intended purpose. That which it was
designed for.

Quoted message said:

but there is no excuse for the kind of problems you
described. If I bought a shoddily constructed steel frame,
I wouldn't get on a soapbox and declare that steel frames
are a bad choice for me.

My contention is not so much in the quality of
construction, although that was contributory, but rather
the quality of use that it's destined for. Accordingly, a
more applicable analogy would be if you bought a perfectly
constructed steel road frame to ride single track/mountain
trails. Regardless of it's meticulous construction the
frame would still be bad choice.

luke

In article <[email hidden]>, ajames54

Quoted message said:

Luke <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

SCHNIP

Quoted message said:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a
prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit
to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as
possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good
service are requisite. But at what point do you continue
to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy
his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs?
Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's
request in order to, in effect, protect him from
himself?

luke

It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation...

If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often
VERY resistant to any suggestion the they may be wrong.
Often either you are calling them stupid or trying to sell
them something different because you make more money...
even if it is totally inappropriate. As an aside (and no
refrence to you or your post) one of the funniest things
in retail is the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who
comes along with the buyer to make sure he gets what he
really needs. So you usually end up with two people who
don't know what they are talking about trying to decide
what to buy.

<snip>

Yeah, I've been a silent witness in shops when that very
situation has arisen. ;-) Shop employees must have the
patience of Job.

luke

[email hidden] (ajames54) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I only once had to refuse a customers request... He wanted
his bar ends mounted backwards ... pointing back towards
him .. and slighly down towards his knees. I told him why
it was a bad idea and told him that I would install them
the correct way but would not do what he wanted.. sombody
in town did though.

Not to derail the thread... but why would this be a bad
idea? The way I picture it, it could offer a position
similar to North Road handlebars.