Newbie question: cleats on recumbents

FLM said:

Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

Is that the tandem? Lucky you.

Quoted message said:

My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this.

Try a search of google groups (www.google.co.uk/groups).
There have been discussions of this in the past.

Quoted message said:

Cleats would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to
fight against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal.
However, I am concerned that cleats would be more
difficult to get in/out of on a bent than an upright. Oh,
and just to make me a double newbie, please note that I
have not used cleats before either, on any type of bike.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea?

Cleats on a bent are a fantastic idea. Even more so than on
a 'normal' bike. Partly for the reason you discovered, and
partly because on some recumbents, if you put your foot on
the ground whilst you're moving it can get caught awkwardly
and mangled. ('Leg/foot suck - sounds more appealing than it
actually is'😉.

I don't think this is an issue on my 'bent, and possibly not
on yours either. But I've never fancied doing the
experiment, hence clipless.

Quoted message said:

Can you get in/out of them quickly?

I can. I also <boast> never fell over after I bought mine,
though I fell over often enough learning to ride.

Quoted message said:

What brand of cleat would you recommend?

Looking at your bike, I imagine you're into touring /
pleasure rides? Get shoes and cleats that you can walk in. I
use SPDs & Shimano 324's, others will differ.

You can get pedals that are platforms on one side, and take
cleats on the other. These can be a good compromise, if you
sometimes want to wear 'normal' shoes, or if friends, family
and strangers want to have a go.

Have fun,

AC

Quoted message said:

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

As BBs get higher then leg-suck becomes more likely. Cleats
prevent leg-suck.

"FLM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
| Hello all:
|
| So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.
|
| My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
| recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this.
| Cleats would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to
| fight against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal.
| However, I am concerned that cleats would be more
| difficult to get in/out of on a bent than an upright. Oh,
| and just to make me a double newbie, please note that I
| have not used cleats before either, on any type of bike.
|
| So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea? Can you get
| in/out of them quickly? What brand of cleat would you
| recommend?
|
| See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

"FLM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this.
Cleats would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to
fight against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal.
However, I am concerned that cleats would be more
difficult to get in/out of on a bent than an upright. Oh,
and just to make me a double newbie, please note that I
have not used cleats before either, on any type of bike.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea?

Yes it was the best thing I ever bought for my bent

Quoted message said:

Can you get in/out of them quickly?

Yes

Quoted message said:

What brand of cleat would you recommend?

Good question, Eggbeaters

Quoted message said:

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Flm
Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea? Can you get in/out
of them quickly? What brand of cleat would you recommend?

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

I use toe clips with straps on my BikeE. (5$) If I'm touring, I crank them tight, and I can't imagine a clipless job holding my foot much more securely, although I know many swear by them.

The toeclip release is very easy, on a 'bent even more so, because the foot is more horizontal than vertical, thus gravity allows you to kick down easily and "fall" out of the clips when desired.

After reading about how riders have their first inevitable falls adjusting to clipless pedals, I opted for this more low-tech solution, works great for me.

No SPD-R! Death! Fear! They need lots of downward pressure
to disengage.

I like my Shimano look style cleats on my SWB. Not really
walkable, but you won't break your ankle either.

"FLM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this.
Cleats would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to
fight against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal.
However, I am concerned that cleats would be more
difficult to get in/out of on a bent than an upright. Oh,
and just to make me a double newbie, please note that I
have not used cleats before either, on any type of bike.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea? Can you get
in/out of them quickly? What brand of cleat would you
recommend?

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

John Duval said:

No SPD-R! Death! Fear! They need lots of downward pressure
to disengage.

I use the (now discontinued) Ultegra SPD-R pedals on my V-
Rex and Volae Team without problems. I find them easy to get
in and out of. But you *must* keep the three little top
plate screws snugged up tight; if you let them get even a
little loose they can make it very difficult to disengage
your shoe.

But as much as I like the pedals, there's no point to
recommend them since Shimano has now discontinued the whole
SPD-R line.

Rick Moll

Doug Huffman said:

As BBs get higher then leg-suck becomes more likely.
Cleats prevent leg-suck.

<pedant> I would have thought that leg-suck would become
more likely as the cyclist becomes more reclined (i.e. high
bottom bracket) and lower to the ground. I have a very high
bottom bracket, but I don't think I could get 'leg-suck'. Is
there any way to be sure? </pedant (sorry)>

AC

anonymous coward said:

Doug Huffman said:

As BBs get higher then leg-suck becomes more likely.
Cleats prevent leg-suck.

<pedant> I would have thought that leg-suck would become
more likely as the cyclist becomes more reclined (i.e.
high bottom bracket) and lower to the ground. I have a
very high bottom bracket, but I don't think I could get
'leg-suck'. Is there any way to be sure? </pedant (sorry)>

That's a good point, I'm much more concerned about leg suck
when I ride one of our Greenspeed trikes than when I'm on my
big wheel Volae. Although there is also the issue of loss of
control should your feet slip off. Consequently, I wouldn't
even consider riding any of my recumbents without cleated
pedals; although I do occasionally ride a mountain bike in
tennis shoes or hiking boots.

"Rick Moll" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

anonymous coward said:

Doug Huffman said:

As BBs get higher then leg-suck becomes more likely.
Cleats prevent leg-suck.

<pedant> I would have thought that leg-suck would become
more likely as the

cyclist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

becomes more reclined (i.e. high bottom bracket) and
lower to the

ground.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a very high bottom bracket, but I don't think I
could get 'leg-suck'. Is there any way to be sure?
</pedant (sorry)>

That's a good point, I'm much more concerned about leg
suck when I ride one of our Greenspeed trikes than when
I'm on my big wheel Volae. Although there is also the
issue of loss of control should your feet slip off.
Consequently, I wouldn't even consider riding any of my
recumbents without cleated pedals; although I do
occasionally ride a mountain bike in tennis shoes or
hiking boots.

Leg suck, as I understand it, is when a foot comes off
the pedal, hits the ground, takes a bad bounce, and goes
under the rear wheel which sucks your leg under the bike.
Really Ugly.

I would say a tall high bb bike that only provided tip toe
contact with the ground, such as a Volae might, would be
least likely to suck. By the same token the high bottom
bracket bike would seem to the best candidate to have an
unrestrained foot slip off the pedal which, at speed,
creates immediate loss of stability (big time). Cleated
pedals keep your feet on the pedals where they belong when
they need to be there. They are arguably your most important
safely accessory on a recumbent. My advice - don't leave
home without them.

skip

skip said:

Leg suck, as I understand it, is when a foot comes off
the pedal, hits the ground, takes a bad bounce, and goes
under the rear wheel which sucks your leg under the bike.
Really Ugly.

It doesn't have to take a bounce. Leg suck is when your
foot, for whatever reason, makes contact with the ground,
then, as our feet are trained to do, 'grabs ground'. As the
bike passes on, that snaps the foot and leg backward
relative to the bike, doing major damage to the leg.

The foot doesn't have to bounce and it doesn't have to have
anything to do with the rear wheel. If it gets that far
back, you do have a serious problem...

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

skip said:

Leg suck, as I understand it, is when a foot comes off
the pedal, hits

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ground, takes a bad bounce, and goes under the rear wheel
which sucks

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

leg under the bike. Really Ugly.

It doesn't have to take a bounce. Leg suck is when your
foot, for whatever reason, makes contact with the ground,
then, as our feet are trained to do, 'grabs ground'. As
the bike passes on, that snaps the foot and leg backward
relative to the bike, doing major damage to the leg.

The foot doesn't have to bounce and it doesn't have to
have anything to do with the rear wheel. If it gets that
far back, you do have a serious problem...

When my foot came off the pedal, while spinning at speed, my
leg bounced upward on impact and a bit toward the side away
from the bike (I think - this all happend in an instant).
Maybe it was a lucky bounce for me because my foot never
'grabbed ground'. I was on a low bottom bracket lwb Ryan
where my foot could reach ground with plenty to spare. Even
though I didn't get sucked I did experience severe lack of
stability as a result of this situation.

Cleated pedals are the answer.

skip

P.S. This happened when the recumbent was new. Even though
I was experienced at riding uprights with cleated
pedals I just couldn't wait to try this new machine
out and see how stable it was at speed. Instead I
found out how unstable it could become.

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

skip said:

Leg suck, as I understand it, is when a foot comes off
the pedal, hits

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ground, takes a bad bounce, and goes under the rear
wheel which sucks

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

leg under the bike. Really Ugly.

It doesn't have to take a bounce. Leg suck is when your
foot, for whatever reason, makes contact with the
ground, then, as our feet are trained to do, 'grabs
ground'. As the bike passes on, that snaps the foot and
leg backward relative to the bike, doing major damage to
the leg.

The foot doesn't have to bounce and it doesn't have to
have anything to do with the rear wheel. If it gets that
far back, you do have a serious problem...

When my foot came off the pedal, while spinning at speed,
my leg bounced upward on impact and a bit toward the side
away from the bike (I think - this all happend in an
instant). Maybe it was a lucky bounce for me

because

Quoted message said:

my foot never 'grabbed ground'. I was on a low bottom
bracket lwb Ryan where my foot could reach ground with
plenty to spare. Even though I

didn't

Quoted message said:

get sucked I did experience severe lack of stability as a
result of this situation.

Cleated pedals are the answer.

Cleated pedals are surely the answer when you are into
performance cycling. This is true no matter how low or how
high the BB. However, if you are just poking along then it
is not necessary to have cleated pedals. You will be
spinning slower and with less pressure and will have plenty
of time to react if your foot slips off the pedal.

Quoted message said:

skip

P.S. This happened when the recumbent was new. Even
though I was experienced at riding uprights with
cleated pedals I just couldn't wait to try this new
machine out and see how stable it was at speed.
Instead I

found

Quoted message said:

out how unstable it could become.

All recumbents are terrifically unstable when compared to
uprights. Therefore, it behooves us to use caution when
operating these contraptions otherwise known as recumbents.
I find lately that I am gravitating more and more to my
recumbent trikes because I am growing weary of combating the
constant instability of 2 wheel recumbents.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All recumbents are terrifically unstable when compared to
uprights. Therefore, it behooves us to use caution when
operating these contraptions otherwise known as
recumbents. I find lately that I am gravitating more

and

Quoted message said:

more to my recumbent trikes because I am growing weary of
combating the constant instability of 2 wheel recumbents.

Actually I find the Ryan a terrifically stable bike as long
as one follows a few simple rules such as keeping your feet
on the bike if it's moving. If I'm going downhill at 45 mph
on an upright I'm a worried man. My imagination is filled
with all sorts of grotesque things that could go wrong and
send me hurtling down the mountain head first and face down.
On the other hand the Ryan is so stable at that speed and
I'm so relaxed that I find myself wishing I could twist a
throttle and pick up another 10 or so mph. Same for the GRR.
These are exceptionally stable bikes that handle beautifully
at high speed (and low speed too in the Ryan's case). I do
not feel the need for a trike's stability. That day is sure
to come, but it's not here yet.

skip

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Flm
Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this. Cleats
would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to fight
against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal. However, I am
concerned that cleats would be more difficult to get in/out
of on a bent than an upright. Oh, and just to make me a
double newbie, please note that I have not used cleats
before either, on any type of bike.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea? Can you get in/out
of them quickly? What brand of cleat would you recommend?

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

I've never experienced leg suck, but it sounds scary.
There is a decided performance advantage to cleats, but there is a learning curve to achieving this advantage. Having the foot fixed to the pedal enables you to power through the entire circle rather than just pushing on the pedals. You need to practice pedalling in circles, thinking about applying power throughout. I do this periodically by unclipping one foot( at low speed) and pedalling with the other.
I was used to cleats on a mountain bike before using them on a recumbent, but even so, I have taken a few tumbles, being unable to disengage when stopping.
I use one sided cleated pedals (platforms on the other) and usually only engage the cleats when on the road at speed.

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All recumbents are terrifically unstable when compared
to uprights. Therefore, it behooves us to use caution
when operating these

contraptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

otherwise known as recumbents. I find lately that I am
gravitating more

and

Quoted message said:

more to my recumbent trikes because I am growing weary
of combating the constant instability of 2 wheel
recumbents.

Actually I find the Ryan a terrifically stable bike as
long as one follows

a

Quoted message said:

few simple rules such as keeping your feet on the bike if
it's moving. If I'm going downhill at 45 mph on an upright
I'm a worried man. My imagination is filled with all sorts
of grotesque things that could go

wrong

Quoted message said:

and send me hurtling down the mountain head first and face
down. On the other hand the Ryan is so stable at that
speed and I'm so relaxed that I find myself wishing I
could twist a throttle and pick up another 10 or so mph.
Same for the GRR. These are exceptionally stable bikes
that handle beautifully at high speed (and low speed too
in the Ryan's case). I do

not

Quoted message said:

feel the need for a trike's stability. That day is sure to
come, but it's not here yet.

All recumbents will trick you when you least expect it.The
fact is they do not handle like an upright to their
detriment. I would be very careful about downhill speeds of
45 mph. It you spill at that speed you are likely to
seriously injure yourself. My top speed on ANY bike is
around 35 mph. Any faster than that and I feel unsafe.
Frankly, I find about 20 mph to be a safe speed on a bike,
most especially a recumbent. But I will agree with you that
a LWB is to be infinitely preferred for stability and
handling reasons than any SWB.

But I am normally traveling at about 10 mph on my
recumbents, and to me there is no comparison between
recumbents and uprights at these admittedly rather slow
speeds. I can do track stands on an upright. I don't believe
anyone on earth can do a track stand on a recumbent. Hence,
they are not as stable as uprights.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On Sun, 16 May 2004 04:05:41 -0500, "skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Mr. Ed farted:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All recumbents are terrifically unstable

Skip replied:

Quoted message said:

Actually I find the Ryan a terrifically stable bike as long
as one follows a few simple rules

But Skip, of course two-wheel recumbents are unstable.
That's why Sam Whittingham crashed at a mere 80mph. This is
one of the reasons Mr Ed refuses to ride above walking pace,
so his red flag man can hold the bike up when turning if the
training wheels don't do their job.

Uprights, on the other hand, are inherently stable. I never
bother leaning mine against anything, I just park them -
they are so stble they can't possibly fall over.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Edward Dolan said:

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Y_idnTkh9aB8szrdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All recumbents are terrifically unstable when compared
to uprights. Therefore, it behooves us to use caution
when operating these

contraptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

otherwise known as recumbents. I find lately that I am
gravitating more

and

Quoted message said:

more to my recumbent trikes because I am growing weary
of combating the constant instability of 2 wheel
recumbents.

Actually I find the Ryan a terrifically stable bike as
long as one follows

a

Quoted message said:

few simple rules such as keeping your feet on the bike if
it's moving. If I'm going downhill at 45 mph on an
upright I'm a worried man. My imagination is filled with
all sorts of grotesque things that could go

wrong

Quoted message said:

and send me hurtling down the mountain head first and
face down. On the other hand the Ryan is so stable at
that speed and I'm so relaxed that I find myself wishing
I could twist a throttle and pick up another 10 or so
mph. Same for the GRR. These are exceptionally stable
bikes that handle beautifully at high speed (and low
speed too in the Ryan's case). I do

not

Quoted message said:

feel the need for a trike's stability. That day is sure
to come, but it's not here yet.

All recumbents will trick you when you least expect it.The
fact is they do not handle like an upright to their
detriment. I would be very careful about downhill speeds
of 45 mph. It you spill at that speed you are likely to
seriously injure yourself. My top speed on ANY bike is
around 35 mph. Any faster than that and I feel unsafe.
Frankly, I find about 20 mph to be a safe speed on a bike,
most especially a recumbent. But I will agree with you
that a LWB is to be infinitely preferred for stability and
handling reasons than any SWB.

But I am normally traveling at about 10 mph on my
recumbents, and to me there is no comparison between
recumbents and uprights at these admittedly rather slow
speeds. I can do track stands on an upright. I don't
believe anyone on earth can do a track stand on a
recumbent. Hence, they are not as stable as uprights.

In a recent CTC magazine there was an article mentioning
'pendulum stability' - a long pendulum swings slower than a
short pendulum, hence a penny-farthing is more stable than
an 'ordinary' is more stable than a low-racer...

My SWB tourer is relatively high and it's stable whenever
it's in motion. Unless the front wheel slips in which case
it's 'splat' before I can do anything about it.

Kit

Dan B. writes" I use one sided cleated pedals (platforms on
the other)
and usually only engage the cleats when on the road at
speed."

I am amazed, after using cleats for several years , how when
I want to stay uncleated, the buggers hook up anyways. I
guess all those times I try to hook up have built motor
memory that won't quit.

Miles of Smiles,

Tom

"kit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Y_idnTkh9aB8szrdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> All recumbents are terrifically unstable when
> compared to uprights. Therefore, it behooves us to
> use caution when operating these

contraptions

Quoted message said:

> otherwise known as recumbents. I find lately that I
> am gravitating

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> more to my recumbent trikes because I am growing
> weary of combating

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> constant instability of 2 wheel recumbents.
>

Actually I find the Ryan a terrifically stable bike as
long as one

follows

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

few simple rules such as keeping your feet on the bike
if it's moving.

If

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm going downhill at 45 mph on an upright I'm a
worried man. My imagination is filled with all sorts of
grotesque things that could go

wrong

Quoted message said:

and send me hurtling down the mountain head first and
face down. On

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other hand the Ryan is so stable at that speed and I'm
so relaxed that

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

find myself wishing I could twist a throttle and pick
up another 10 or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mph. Same for the GRR. These are exceptionally stable
bikes that

handle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

beautifully at high speed (and low speed too in the
Ryan's case). I do

not

Quoted message said:

feel the need for a trike's stability. That day is sure
to come, but

it's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not here yet.

All recumbents will trick you when you least expect
it.The fact is they

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not handle like an upright to their detriment. I would
be very careful

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

downhill speeds of 45 mph. It you spill at that speed
you are likely to seriously injure yourself. My top
speed on ANY bike is around 35 mph.

Any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

faster than that and I feel unsafe. Frankly, I find
about 20 mph to be a safe speed on a bike, most
especially a recumbent. But I will agree with

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that a LWB is to be infinitely preferred for stability
and handling

reasons

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than any SWB.

But I am normally traveling at about 10 mph on my
recumbents, and to me there is no comparison between
recumbents and uprights at these

admittedly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rather slow speeds. I can do track stands on an upright.
I don't believe anyone on earth can do a track stand on
a recumbent. Hence, they are not

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stable as uprights.

In a recent CTC magazine there was an article mentioning
'pendulum stability' - a long pendulum swings slower than
a short pendulum, hence a penny-farthing is more stable
than an 'ordinary' is more stable than a low-racer...

My SWB tourer is relatively high and it's stable whenever
it's in motion. Unless the front wheel slips in which case
it's 'splat' before I can do anything about it.

Kit

Yes, Kit, I think you have got it right. I remember reading
many years ago that the higher you are centered above two
wheels the easier the balance and the lower you are centered
over two wheels the more difficult the balance.This seems
intuitively to be correct to me. I believe many circus acts
are based on this principle. It is much easier to balance on
an upright than it is to balance on a recumbent, but the
higher the seat is above the two wheels the easier the
balance. I believe there was a recumbent a few years back
that was based on this principle. It was called a high rider
or some such thing. I believe it has since gone out of
business and it was never popular for reasons having nothing
to do with balance.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota