natural predators & a natural life is cruel? "Yes" - according to usual suspect

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't,
but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best
between themselves to stop the readers on these animal
related groups getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal
isn't being consciously cruel, but the animal who is killed
does suffer, and that fact can't be diminished. There's no
moral significance to this because the predator isnt making
any kind of "decision" to do this, just following instincts.

Human actions have moral significance because we can choose
what to do. With that said, the fact that we provide
slaughter that is often more humane than a death by
predation in the wild would be, is a significant point to be
made. After all, humans could attack a cow with spears or we
could use humane slaughter methods including stunning.

-Rubystars

Are you still ranting on about this? I thought you'd have
had the sense to drop it by now..

ipse dixit said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that

...Dreck keeps taking out of context so he can stir [censored].

<...>

Quoted message said:

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

That's sarcasm, Dreck. Consider elsewhere in the same thread
when I wrote: I'm not taking Harrison's position in this.
I'm only going as far as saying that slaughterhouses aren't
the only "travesty" animals face. I'm all for lions stalking
and hunting -- makes for good tv on Discovery and National
Geographic.

And: Unlike misanthropes like you and your little hare-
brained friend Lesley, I accept the role we and other
animals play in nature. Ruminants are food -- whether
for our species or others. That's their main purpose in
an ecosystem: to convert plant matter into protein and
to be eaten.

And (to you, fatso): You should careful lest you start
agreeing again with your buddy Lotus, whose
anthropomorphisms range from the mildly amusing to the
doubled over in near-fatal laughter, and engaging in
anthropomorphic projections yourself: I myself give these
rights to any animal in my presence. Why can I not feel
aggressive toward anyone who flouts these rights?
tinyurl.comgkcjOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

Nothing in that even implies that I think either
slaughterhouses or large cats are cruel.

Quoted message said:

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that

...Dreck likes to stir up [censored].

<snip of patent lies

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't,
but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best
between themselves to stop the readers on these animal
related groups getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

Yes, they are. One sad aspect of it is that U.S. didn't seem
to start out that way and he's written a few interesting
posts that are worth a read (e.g., his post about GI vs. GL
earlier today).

But for some reason he came to think that jonnie's behavior
was acceptable and worthy of emulation, and he started
emulating jonnie's dishonest unethical unchristian behavior.

"Rubystars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may
be messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human
predation isn't, but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing
their level best between themselves to stop the readers
on these animal related groups getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal
isn't being consciously cruel, but the animal who is
killed does suffer, and that fact can't be diminished.
There's no moral significance to this because the predator
isnt making any kind of "decision" to do this, just
following instincts.

Human actions have moral significance because we can
choose what to do.

With

Quoted message said:

that said, the fact that we provide slaughter that is
often more humane

than

Quoted message said:

a death by predation in the wild would be, is a
significant point to be made. After all, humans could
attack a cow with spears or we could use humane slaughter
methods including stunning.

You've got it exactly right. Cruel also means simply
causing pain and suffering, based on that definition,
nature is arguably more cruel than captivity. Nash is
equivocating again.

Rubystars said:

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human predation
isn't, but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their
level best between themselves to stop the readers on
these animal related groups getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal
isn't being consciously cruel, but the animal who is killed
does suffer, and that fact can't be diminished. There's no
moral significance to this because the predator isnt making
any kind of "decision" to do this, just following
instincts.

Yes, but my point here is that "usual suspect" has openly
lied by trying to wriggle away from his quotes which say he
finds natural predation cruel. Most normal-thinking people
already know that natural predation isn't cruel, but "usual
suspect" made the mistake in claiming it is to head off any
criticisms from those who object to human predation.

Quoted message said:

Human actions have moral significance because we can choose
what to do. With that said, the fact that we provide
slaughter that is often more humane than a death by
predation in the wild would be, is a significant point to
be made. After all, humans could attack a cow with spears
or we could use humane slaughter methods including
stunning.

-Rubystars

Dutch said:

Are you still ranting on about this? I thought you'd have
had the sense to drop it by now..

Tell me why natural predation is cruel, Dutch.

Jonathan Ball said:

ipse dixit said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about

You're lying

Yet again you've shown your worthlessness by changing the
newsgroup titles and snipping away the evidence that proves
"usual suspect" believes natural predation is cruel.

<unsnip> Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel sometime.
usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten by
humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators are
less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't, but
both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best between
themselves to stop the readers on these animal related
groups from getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just
about anything they can think of. What a pair of
liars, eh? <endsnip

The title alone is worth a case of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale;
just tell me where to send it.

farrell77 said:

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may be
messy, but they're not cruel." Usual Suspect
tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're eaten
by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other predators
are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human predation
isn't, but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their
level best between themselves to stop the readers on
these animal related groups getting to read them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

Yes, they are. One sad aspect of it is that U.S. didn't
seem to start out that way and he's written a few
interesting posts that are worth a read (e.g., his post
about GI vs. GL earlier today).

Here's a few interesting views he claims to have held;

"I also favor humane treatment, which to me means not
killing them simply for my own benefit." usual suspect 2002-10-
09 tinyurl.com2wny3Open ↗

"Animals are not moral agents and generally operate by
instinct and conditioning (the same can be said of far too
many humans). Animals should be afforded protection under
the law. But are they endowed with any rights by their
creator? I do not know that answer. usual suspect Date: 2002-06-
12 tinyurl.com2hfz9Open ↗

"Veganism costs less regardless of socio-economic environs.
Indeed, lesser well-off people are far more likely to
subsist on vegetarian diets; meat and dairy are a product of
'advanced' society. It costs more to produce dairy, beef,
poultry, pork than grains, vegetables, legumes; indeed, you
must first raise the latter to fatten the former. Skip the
former entirely and you have much more of the latter to feed
the world." usual suspect Date: 2002-12-26
tinyurl.comyvyk8Open ↗

Quoted message said:

But for some reason he came to think that jonnie's behavior
was acceptable and worthy of emulation, and he started
emulating jonnie's dishonest unethical unchristian
behavior.

I've seen bullying at school where the victim does his best
to appease his aggressor because he has very little option
but to continue going to school from threat of expulsion,
but this net bullying and appeasement, especially the
voluntary appeasement as seen in "usual" has a chapter of
its own in any book relating to bullying because "usual"
doesn't necessarily have to put up with
it. I don't quite understand it, tbh.

farrell77 wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't,

[censored], you [censored]-stirring punk.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best
between themselves to stop the readers on these animal
related groups getting to read them.

They're available IN CONTEXT at Google. Your incessant and
gross misrepresentations of others' remarks, including mine,
are as well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

Very rich coming from such a [censored]-stirrer who alters posts,
snips context, and changes subjects at least as often as
those whom he accuses.

Quoted message said:

Yes, they are.

Welcome to Dreck's asinine smear club, cocksucking liar
[censored]. The irony isn't lost that you reject the list about
pearl's well-established moronic beliefs and yet side
with the fat, [censored]-stirring cretin of Eastbourne in his
little game.

Quoted message said:

One sad aspect of it is that U.S. didn't seem to start
out that way and he's written a few interesting posts
that are worth a read (e.g., his post about GI vs. GL
earlier today).

You'd find all my posts interesting if you weren't so busy
trying to defend "the side" when their balls are against the
wall. Not that you're apt to handle such tasks (you're
clearly not).

Quoted message said:

But for some reason he came to think that jonnie's
behavior was acceptable and worthy of emulation, and he
started emulating jonnie's dishonest unethical unchristian
behavior.

No, I only stopped trying to defend and deflect criticism
leveled against lying [censored] like you. Where's the
dishonesty or unethical behavior in my posts? Prove it,
[censored].

Dutch said:

"Rubystars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]
> natural predators & a natural life is cruel?
[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as
they're stalked and hunted by large cats?
Slaughterhouses may be messy, but they're not cruel."
Usual Suspect tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're
eaten by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other
predators are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human
predation isn't, but both he and Jonathan Ball are
doing their level best between themselves to stop the
readers on these animal related groups getting to read
them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal
isn't being consciously cruel, but the animal who is
killed does suffer, and that fact can't be diminished.
There's no moral significance to this because the
predator isnt making any kind of "decision" to do this,
just following instincts.

Human actions have moral significance because we can
choose what to do. With that said, the fact that we
provide slaughter that is often more humane than a death
by predation in the wild would be, is a significant point
to be made. After all, humans could attack a cow with
spears or we could use humane slaughter methods including
stunning.

You've got it exactly right. Cruel also means simply
causing pain and suffering, based on that definition,
nature is arguably more cruel than captivity.

PERFECT! Thanks for offering your stupidity to this, Dutch.

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 16:11:07 GMT, "Rubystars"
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan
desperately wants the reader to forget about (below).

[start Mmhsb]
> natural predators & a natural life is cruel?
[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel
sometime. usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

and

"Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as
they're stalked and hunted by large cats?
Slaughterhouses may be messy, but they're not cruel."
Usual Suspect tinyurl.comyu6eqOpen ↗

and

"Suffering results for all animals whether they're
eaten by humans or other animals. Indeed, many other
predators are less humane than humans." usual suspect
tinyurl.com2ba7fOpen ↗

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human
predation isn't, but both he and Jonathan Ball are
doing their level best between themselves to stop the
readers on these animal related groups getting to read
them.

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal
isn't being consciously cruel, but the animal who is
killed does suffer, and that

fact

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can't be diminished. There's no moral significance to
this because the predator isnt making any kind of
"decision" to do this, just following instincts.

Yes, but my point here is that "usual suspect" has openly
lied by trying to wriggle away from his quotes which say
he finds natural predation cruel. Most normal-thinking
people already know that natural predation isn't cruel,
but "usual suspect" made the mistake in claiming it is to
head off any criticisms from those who object to human
predation.

I think the point is that the suffering experienced from
natural predation is often greater than the suffering
experienced from humane slaughter methods.

-Rubystars

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The title alone is worth a case of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale;
just tell me where to send it.

Straight into the [censored] pot ~~jonnie~~, the best place for
'Chemical' beer.

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Most normal-thinking people already know that natural
predation isn't cruel

Ipse dixit, most people think that nature *is* cruel, not
just predation, but animals starving, drowning, or
freezing to death.

"ipse dixit" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Dutch said:

Are you still ranting on about this? I thought you'd have
had the sense

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drop it by now..

Tell me why natural predation is cruel, Dutch.

See 2. below

Cruel:
1.. Disposed to inflict pain or suffering.
2.. Causing suffering; painful. man, you're thick.

Dreck Nash said:

I've seen bullying at school

ipse dixit wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

I've seen bullying at school where the victim does his
best to appease his aggressor because he has very little
option but to continue going to school from threat of
expulsion, but this net bullying and appeasement,
especially the voluntary appeasement as seen in "usual"
has a chapter of its own in any book relating to bullying
because "usual" doesn't necessarily have to put up with
it. I don't quite understand it, tbh.

There's a lot you don't understand, bluefoot. Like how
lifting an engine block out of a car can cripple someone for
life. You seem to know a lot about bullying. You've been at
it -- and forms of [censored]-stirring -- your whole life.

usual suspect said:

farrell77 wrote: <...>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect"
believes natural predation is cruel while human
predation isn't,

[censored], you [censored]-stirring punk.

Here's the quote you keep snipping away which proves my
claim is correct.

[start Mmhsb]

Quoted message said:

natural predators & a natural life is cruel?

[usual suspect] Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel sometime.
usual suspect tinyurl.com2c9acOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best
between themselves to stop the readers on these animal
related groups getting to read them.

They're available IN CONTEXT at Google.

Exactly true. I've supplied links to them, so go and check
them for yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup

You've been doing it all week and more besides. The evidence
is all in Google archives.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?

Very rich coming from such a [censored]-stirrer who alters posts

Show where.

Quoted message said:

snips context,

Show where

Quoted message said:

and changes subjects

So what?

[..]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But for some reason he came to think that jonnie's
behavior was acceptable and worthy of emulation, and he
started emulating jonnie's dishonest unethical
unchristian behavior.

No, I only stopped trying to defend and deflect criticism
leveled against lying [censored] like you. Where's the
dishonesty or unethical behavior in my posts? Prove it,
[censored].

You've edited the sentences in my posts at least a dozen
times before responding to them, used two identities to
attack JethroUk, altered newsgroup follow-up addresses to
make replying to your posts awkward, lied, forged posts
using your opponent's identity, and committed just about
every unethical trick you can think of, so don't try
claiming your behaviour here is honest because no one's
that stupid to believe you in light of all the evidence
against you.