General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Longest scientific study yet backs Atkins diet

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
18 May 2004
Last activity
30 May 2004
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Diarmid Logan
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  1. Doug Lerner said:

    On 5/18/04 10:44 PM, in article
    [email hidden], "Diarmid

    Logan said:

    By the end, both groups had lost about the same amount
    of weight, between five and eight kilograms for the
    Atkins group and three and eight kilos for the low fat
    group. But the Atkins dieters lost almost all their
    weight in the first six months, then remained at a
    steady weight.

    Which is precisely the PROBLEM I had with Atkins. After
    six months I entered a six month stall, and have only
    broken that stall by switching to a low-calorie diet.

    doug

    No switching is required with the 2PD approach which can be
    dovetailed with reduced carbs if you choose.

    heartmdphd.comwtloss.asp

    Would suggest you ask your doctor about it.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.com

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    What is all this about?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    Is this spam?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

  2. Mr./Ms. Diarmid, may I suggest you not cross post to several
    newsgroups. We are plagued buy the troll behavior of an
    infamous "Dr." who hangs out on one ng mostly but is
    eagar to do cross posting. Many of us think he or someone
    who gets a kick out of doing so, cross post on purpose in
    order to permit him to say he didn't start the cross
    posting. Leave him in that ng alone and let the rest of
    us not have to see his self rightious trolling and other
    self promoting behaviors.

  3. Mr./Ms. Diarmid, may I suggest you not cross post to several
    newsgroups. We are plagued buy the troll behavior of an
    infamous "Dr." who hangs out on one ng mostly but is
    eagar to do cross posting. Many of us think he or someone
    who gets a kick out of doing so, cross post on purpose in
    order to permit him to say he didn't start the cross
    posting. Leave him in that ng alone and let the rest of
    us not have to see his self rightious trolling and other
    self promoting behaviors.

  4. The LAST thing anyone needs is a drooling crossposter like
    tis

    When shills spread things all ofer the newsgroups, we know
    that their sock puppets are not far behind

    Diarmid Logan wrote:

    <snip>

    --
    "...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as
    history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls
    observing from the present" Glen Cook

  5. On 18 May 2004 06:44:59 -0700, [email hidden] (Diarmid Logan)
    wrote:

    Cross-posts to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-
    carb,alt.support.diabetes,misc.health.diabetes,sci.med.card-
    iology retained for this post.

    Quoted message said:

    Stern's year-long study (Annals of Internal Medicine, vol
    140, p778) was twice the length of any previous study. Half
    the patients followed the Atkins regime, limiting daily
    carbohydrate intake to just 30 grams. The rest tried losing
    weight through a conventional low-fat diet much richer in
    carbohydrates.

    Incorrect.

    There is no doubt that the results were "good news for
    Atkins dieters", as the author stated, but the study was
    on general lower carb dieting, not specifically the
    Atkins method.

    One of the problems with reports like this is the way
    meanings change with skewed repetition, in the news media
    and on newsgroups.

    The abstract of the original report from Stern is at :
    annals.org778

    It is worth reading the original, instead of the media hype.

    The only mention I can find in it of Atkins is :

    "Although it has been speculated that a low-carbohydrate
    diet would facilitate weight loss by promoting the
    metabolism of adipose tissue
    (13), our data suggest that weight loss differences may be
    explained by lower caloric intake on a low-
    carbohydrate diet".

    The reference 13 is:

    "13. Atkins RC. Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution. New York:
    Avon Books; 1998."

    The methodology is described as:

    "Diet groups met in weekly counseling sessions for 4 weeks,
    followed by 11 monthly sessions. Participants on the low-
    carbohydrate diet were instructed only to reduce
    carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day. Participants
    on the conventional diet were instructed to reduce caloric
    intake by 500 calories per day, with less than 30% of
    calories derived from fat, in accordance with the National
    Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute guidelines (3)."

    At no stage is it stated that they followed the Atkins diet,
    although there may be obvious similarities. Unlike the
    similar Atkins-funded study, no mention is made of
    supplements or specialty foods.

    I found the study interesting and I hope that it leads to
    further research, particularly the implications for diabetic
    health such as glycemic control and lipids improvements. But
    I fear that the instant association with Atkins, rather than
    the wider concept of lower carb eating, will lead to it
    being disregarded by the medical establishment.

    So let's stop instantly jumping to the conclusion, as the
    news reporters did, that the diet studied was Atkins.

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  6. On 18 May 2004 06:44:59 -0700, [email hidden] (Diarmid Logan)
    wrote:

    Cross-posts to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-
    carb,alt.support.diabetes,misc.health.diabetes,sci.med.card-
    iology retained for this post.

    Quoted message said:

    Stern's year-long study (Annals of Internal Medicine, vol
    140, p778) was twice the length of any previous study. Half
    the patients followed the Atkins regime, limiting daily
    carbohydrate intake to just 30 grams. The rest tried losing
    weight through a conventional low-fat diet much richer in
    carbohydrates.

    Incorrect.

    There is no doubt that the results were "good news for
    Atkins dieters", as the author stated, but the study was
    on general lower carb dieting, not specifically the
    Atkins method.

    One of the problems with reports like this is the way
    meanings change with skewed repetition, in the news media
    and on newsgroups.

    The abstract of the original report from Stern is at :
    annals.org778

    It is worth reading the original, instead of the media hype.

    The only mention I can find in it of Atkins is :

    "Although it has been speculated that a low-carbohydrate
    diet would facilitate weight loss by promoting the
    metabolism of adipose tissue
    (13), our data suggest that weight loss differences may be
    explained by lower caloric intake on a low-
    carbohydrate diet".

    The reference 13 is:

    "13. Atkins RC. Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution. New York:
    Avon Books; 1998."

    The methodology is described as:

    "Diet groups met in weekly counseling sessions for 4 weeks,
    followed by 11 monthly sessions. Participants on the low-
    carbohydrate diet were instructed only to reduce
    carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day. Participants
    on the conventional diet were instructed to reduce caloric
    intake by 500 calories per day, with less than 30% of
    calories derived from fat, in accordance with the National
    Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute guidelines (3)."

    At no stage is it stated that they followed the Atkins diet,
    although there may be obvious similarities. Unlike the
    similar Atkins-funded study, no mention is made of
    supplements or specialty foods.

    I found the study interesting and I hope that it leads to
    further research, particularly the implications for diabetic
    health such as glycemic control and lipids improvements. But
    I fear that the instant association with Atkins, rather than
    the wider concept of lower carb eating, will lead to it
    being disregarded by the medical establishment.

    So let's stop instantly jumping to the conclusion, as the
    news reporters did, that the diet studied was Atkins.

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  7. Quoted message said:

    "But my question is what is the effect of each type of diet
    on a diabetic?"

    From the year long research:

    " In the subgroup of 54 persons with diabetes, hemoglobin
    A[1c] levels improved more with the low-carbohydrate diet,
    but the difference was not statistically significant in
    sensitivity analyses. Both groups had similar changes in
    other lipids and in insulin sensitivity."

    Stern is a little more positive in:

    "Glycemic Control and Insulin Sensitivity

    The difference in the response of glucose and insulin
    sensitivity between diet groups by 1 year was not
    significant (Table 3). Despite this, the hemoglobin A1c
    level in the small group of persons with diabetes (n = 54)
    decreased more in the low-carbohydrate group, after
    adjustment for baseline differences (Table 3). This
    difference remained significant after weight loss amount was
    added to the model (P = 0.019), suggesting a direct effect
    of the low-carbohydrate diet on glycemic control. However,
    the significance of the difference in the response of
    hemoglobin A1c was not confirmed by an analysis that
    included only the persons who completed the study (adjusted
    P = 0.080) or when baseline values were carried forward for
    missing persons (adjusted P = 0.18). Two persons on the low-
    carbohydrate diet and 4 on the conventional diet developed
    diabetes at 1 year (P > 0.2)."

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  8. Quoted message said:

    "But my question is what is the effect of each type of diet
    on a diabetic?"

    From the year long research:

    " In the subgroup of 54 persons with diabetes, hemoglobin
    A[1c] levels improved more with the low-carbohydrate diet,
    but the difference was not statistically significant in
    sensitivity analyses. Both groups had similar changes in
    other lipids and in insulin sensitivity."

    Stern is a little more positive in:

    "Glycemic Control and Insulin Sensitivity

    The difference in the response of glucose and insulin
    sensitivity between diet groups by 1 year was not
    significant (Table 3). Despite this, the hemoglobin A1c
    level in the small group of persons with diabetes (n = 54)
    decreased more in the low-carbohydrate group, after
    adjustment for baseline differences (Table 3). This
    difference remained significant after weight loss amount was
    added to the model (P = 0.019), suggesting a direct effect
    of the low-carbohydrate diet on glycemic control. However,
    the significance of the difference in the response of
    hemoglobin A1c was not confirmed by an analysis that
    included only the persons who completed the study (adjusted
    P = 0.080) or when baseline values were carried forward for
    missing persons (adjusted P = 0.18). Two persons on the low-
    carbohydrate diet and 4 on the conventional diet developed
    diabetes at 1 year (P > 0.2)."

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  9. Quoted message said:

    "No switching is required with the 2PD approach which can
    be dovetailed with reduced carbs if you choose. "

    Even more effective is the 2 minute diet, eat anything
    within the time period from any diet, even using a
    different diet each meal, switching is encouraged.

    If that works for you, by all means go for it. It is not my
    loss if something else works for you. After all, the 2PD
    approach is a public service on my part that addresses a
    real public need.

    Truth is simple.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.com

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    What is all this about?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    Is this spam?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

  10. Quoted message said:

    "No switching is required with the 2PD approach which can
    be dovetailed with reduced carbs if you choose. "

    Even more effective is the 2 minute diet, eat anything
    within the time period from any diet, even using a
    different diet each meal, switching is encouraged.

    If that works for you, by all means go for it. It is not my
    loss if something else works for you. After all, the 2PD
    approach is a public service on my part that addresses a
    real public need.

    Truth is simple.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.com

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    What is all this about?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

    Is this spam?
    makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.com

  11. You don't have to switch to another way of eating to reduce
    the calories. Just east less. I can't see how it would be
    beneficial to start eating things that make you hungrier.

    In "]news:[email hidden], Peanutjake
    <[email hidden]> stated
    |
    | So maybe that is the secret for losing weight. Go on
    | Atkins for 6 months then switch to a lower calorie diet.
    |
    | But my question is what is the effect of each type of diet
    | on a diabetic?
    |
    | PJ

  12. You don't have to switch to another way of eating to reduce
    the calories. Just east less. I can't see how it would be
    beneficial to start eating things that make you hungrier.

    In "]news:[email hidden], Peanutjake
    <[email hidden]> stated
    |
    | So maybe that is the secret for losing weight. Go on
    | Atkins for 6 months then switch to a lower calorie diet.
    |
    | But my question is what is the effect of each type of diet
    | on a diabetic?
    |
    | PJ

  13. On Tue, 18 May 2004 12:16:50 -0400, Jackie Patti <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    X-posts to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-
    carb,alt.support.diabetes,misc.health.diabetes,sci.med.card-
    iology retained.

    Quoted message said:

    The second study showed significantly better glycemic
    control on low-carb.

    Which seems frankly so damned obvious to me that it seems
    ridiculous to need a study.

    People with impaired carbohydrate metabolism should limit
    carbs! Surprise!

    Um, Jackie, I totally agree with you. However, from the web-
    site of the American Diabetes Association (the emphasis in
    capitals is mine):

    diabetes.orgnutrition and
    recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp

    "The message today: EAT MORE STARCHES! It is healthiest for
    everyone to eat more whole grains, beans, and starchy
    vegetables such as peas, corn, potatoes and winter squash.
    Starches are good for you because they have very little fat,
    saturated fat, or cholesterol. They are packed with
    vitamins, minerals, and fiber. Yes, foods with carbohydrate
    -- starches, vegetables, fruits, and dairy products -- will
    raise your blood glucose more quickly than meats and fats,
    but they are the healthiest foods for you. YOUR DOCTOR MAY
    NEED TO ADJUST YOUR MEDICATIONS WHEN YOU EAT MORE
    CARBOHYDRATES. You may need to increase your activity level
    or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day."

    As you said:

    Blond moments in science...

    That is why we need the studies, and lots more of them from
    reputable impartial research organisations.

    Because, although I'm not american, my mob seem to follow
    yours when it comes to dispensing this as the best advice
    for diabetics.

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  14. On Tue, 18 May 2004 12:16:50 -0400, Jackie Patti <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    X-posts to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet.low-
    carb,alt.support.diabetes,misc.health.diabetes,sci.med.card-
    iology retained.

    Quoted message said:

    The second study showed significantly better glycemic
    control on low-carb.

    Which seems frankly so damned obvious to me that it seems
    ridiculous to need a study.

    People with impaired carbohydrate metabolism should limit
    carbs! Surprise!

    Um, Jackie, I totally agree with you. However, from the web-
    site of the American Diabetes Association (the emphasis in
    capitals is mine):

    diabetes.orgnutrition and
    recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp

    "The message today: EAT MORE STARCHES! It is healthiest for
    everyone to eat more whole grains, beans, and starchy
    vegetables such as peas, corn, potatoes and winter squash.
    Starches are good for you because they have very little fat,
    saturated fat, or cholesterol. They are packed with
    vitamins, minerals, and fiber. Yes, foods with carbohydrate
    -- starches, vegetables, fruits, and dairy products -- will
    raise your blood glucose more quickly than meats and fats,
    but they are the healthiest foods for you. YOUR DOCTOR MAY
    NEED TO ADJUST YOUR MEDICATIONS WHEN YOU EAT MORE
    CARBOHYDRATES. You may need to increase your activity level
    or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day."

    As you said:

    Blond moments in science...

    That is why we need the studies, and lots more of them from
    reputable impartial research organisations.

    Because, although I'm not american, my mob seem to follow
    yours when it comes to dispensing this as the best advice
    for diabetics.

    Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
    carbs to email.
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  15. Mirek Fidler said:


    "Diarmid Logan" <[email hidden]> píse v diskusním
    príspevku
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    newscientist.comnews.jsp

    Quoted message said:

    was twice the length of any previous study. Half the
    patients followed the Atkins regime, limiting daily
    carbohydrate intake to just 30 grams.

    Ooops. Limiting carbs intake to 30 grams is NOT
    Atkins regime.

    These are induction levels and you are not supposed to be
    so low for more then couple of weeks, most prefferable 14
    days only. Certainly not for one year.

    I wish people would at least familiarize with the basics
    of Atkins before making a criticism of the study.
    Induction is no more than 20 grams. 30 grams is well
    within the OWL range.

    --
    marcio at compudimensions.com

  16. X-post retained

    On 18-May-2004, Alan
    <[email hidden]> posted:

    Quoted message said:

    . . . our data suggest that weight loss differences may be
    explained by lower caloric intake on a low-carbohydrate
    diet".

    Atkins is irrelevant. It's just a label. We're not doing it
    to lose weight. (or did I miss something?)

    --
    Bob Dx T1 4/4/2003, just a few units of novorapid when
    I need it (trying zeroish carb - kiddies, do not try
    this at home)

  17. I have lost 73 pounds on Atkins since last July! I did level
    off in February, and my weight has not gone up or down
    since. I consume roughly 50 to 60 carbs a day now.

    My cholestorol went down from 270 to 185!

    I no longer eat Bread, pasta, ANY sugar, etc. etc. and have
    never felt better in years.

    I DO need to exercise more though.

    Just my observations. I'm a DEDICATED ATKINS fanatic!

    h1

  18. Alan said:

    from the web-site of the American Diabetes Association
    (the emphasis in capitals is mine):

    diabetes.orgnutrition and
    recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp

    "The message today: EAT MORE STARCHES!

    OH MY GOD, I thought you were joking. Unless someone's
    hacked their web page. They can't be for real? can they?

    --
    Bob Dx T1 4/4/2003, just a few units of novorapid when
    I need it (trying zeroish carb - kiddies, do not try
    this at home)

  19. Diarmid Logan said:


    newscientist.comnews.jsp

    Longest scientific study yet backs Atkins diet

    Half the patients followed the Atkins regime, limiting
    daily carbohydrate intake to just 30 grams.

    That's not Atkins. That's hardly any different from
    Induction. Ye gods I'd love some study to be done on real
    actual Atkins what it really seriously says in the
    directions.

    Quoted message said:

    The rest tried losing weight through a conventional low-
    fat diet much richer in carbohydrates.

    Yup. Few say low fat diets don't work. Many say they are
    hard to stick to. In the long run easy to stick to wins.

    Quoted message said:

    By the end, both groups had lost about the same amount of
    weight, between five and eight kilograms for the Atkins
    group and three and eight kilos for the low fat group. But
    the Atkins dieters lost almost all their weight in the
    first six months, then remained at a steady weight.

    Six months. Ah, the magic number that Dr A warned about.
    Not supposed to stay low for more than six months according
    to the book.

    I wonder how many hit their ideal weight and stopped losing
    (the best possible result) vs how many stalled because they
    stayed too low in carbs.

    This does show that skill comes into play far more in low
    carbing than in low fatting. Going too low in carbs does
    stall plenty. It would seem that going tooo low in fat
    doesn't have nearly that same problem.

    Quoted message said:

    Stern says that this pattern of rapid weight loss matches
    that seen in an earlier but shorter study of Atkins
    dieters, by Gary Foster's team at the University of
    Pennsylvania in May 2003. "I'm impressed that they didn't
    gain it all back," says Stern.

    It's *easy* to stay at 30!

    Quoted message said:

    Compared with the low-fat group, Atkins dieters also had
    lower levels of triglycerides, potentially harmful blood
    sugars which can trigger heart disease. Concentrations of
    beneficial high density cholesterols (HDLs) also held up
    better in the Atkins group. And these favourable changes
    remained till the end of the study, suggesting that there
    might be lasting benefits.

    No news to anyone who's been paying attention.

    Quoted message said:

    "But what we really need is a study showing whether people
    on the low-carbohydrate diet for years have different odds
    of heart attacks, strokes and diabetes," she says.

    Absolutely. Prove it and get the naysayers handled. Just
    because one old guy four decades into a low carb plan was in
    such good health he had to slip on the ice to keep from
    going to work every day doesn't mean it will work that well
    for everyone, so it is time for a study.

    Quoted message said:

    But critics highlight some negative findings from the Duke
    study. "This new evidence confirms that levels of 'bad'
    cholesterol worsen in a substantial number of low-
    carbohydrate dieters," said Neal Barnard of the Physicians
    Committee for Responsible Medicine, a vegan lobby group in
    Washington DC.

    Ah the PCRM liars again. In fact their "substantial"
    actually means 20% according to Dr A. Recent studies hint
    that Dr A might have been conservative in his 20% claim.

    Quoted message said:

    news.bbc.co.uk3722221.stm

    Scientists endorse Atkins diet

    But he added that such diets should include healthy
    sources of protein and fat and incorporate regular
    exercise.

    Uh, sure, just like it says in the directions. #;^)%

    Quoted message said:

    "Patients should focus on finding ways to eat that they
    can maintain indefinitely rather than seeking diets that
    promote rapid weight loss," he said.

    Agreed. I have found keeping it off much harder than losing
    it. Among other things keeping it off lasts a lot longer ...

  20. "Jackie Patti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peanutjake said:

    But my question is what is the effect of each type of
    diet on a


    diabetic?

    Quoted message said:


    The second study showed significantly better glycemic
    control on low-carb.

    Which seems frankly so damned obvious to me that it seems
    ridiculous to need a study.

    People with impaired carbohydrate metabolism should limit
    carbs! Surprise!

    Blond moments in science...

    It has always seemed rather obvious to me too. If your
    carbohydrate processing mechanism is impaired, why overload
    your kidneys and your bloodstream by eating it?

    The problem is that low calorie, so called "balanced" diets
    are very hard to stay with. For those of us who have failed
    at them, the problem is hunger and it is very real. Lower
    carb diets seem to circumvent this extreme hunger issue.

    The way ANY diet works is by lowering caloric intake of
    course. NOT being starving hungry is a big help.

    --
    Regards, Evelyn

    (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox"😉

    Quoted message said:


    --
    As you accelerate your food, it takes exponentially more
    and more energy to increase its velocity, until you hit a
    limit at C. This energy has to come from somewhere; in
    this case, from the food's nutritional value. Thus, the
    faster the food is, the worse it gets. -- Mark Hughes,
    comprehending the taste of fast food

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