Newbie question: cleats on recumbents

Yes, clipless pedals are an excellent idea on a 'bent. If you fall, you
must keep your legs in front of you. DON'T TRY TO BRAKE THE FALL BY PUTTING
A FOOT DOWN! Clipless pedals will help you not to do this. In my 3500 mi.
I have had but one accident accept for a couple of miscues while starting or
stopping. Here are the details of that one accident:

I hit some black ice while climbing into a left turn--
probably moving 8-9 mph. and my front tire slipped out. I
put my left leg down in a reflex action and broke my tibia
and fibula in the malleolous region (ankle region). It was 3
breaks in all; a compound fracture with a plate, and 9
screws. I spent 12 weeks on crutches with a lot of pain and
inconvenience. It takes at least a year to really recover
from this kind of injury--like running at full speed or
making fast cuts like in tennis or a running back might
make. It's been over a year and mine is still improving. I
have walked 20 mi. in a Walk for Hunger, but have some mild
discomfort in it. There is some permanent loss of motion due
to all the hardware, but it's not worth having the hardware
out. Bicycling is no problem now. Just got back from TOSRV.
All done on the second day by 1:15. I'm the guy who yelled
at every 'bent I saw, "Go 'bent!" or "''Bent power!" I was
on a cherry red Barcroft Dakota.

I urge you to see how this injury can happen. Try this. Put
your left foot on the ground while scooting the 'bent
forward with the right. The left foot will end up with the
toe on the ground as the bike moves forward and the foot
stays put. At this point you can see that if you fall and
your ankle twists one way (toe in), you are fine. If it
twists the other way (toe out), you end up injured for
certain. In my case I was staring at a foot pointing at 6:00
instead of 12:00. Not a pretty sight!

I have a rather high bottom bracket SWB with rather low (not
low rider) seating position. IMHO the seating position is
more important than the bottom bracket height, because your
foot is nowhere near the bottom bracket when this kind of
injury occurs. The only damage I did in this accident to my
hardware was a bent water bottle cage--not a scratch
anywhere else. Even my clothing was find except for where my
tibia went through my neoprene sock. I didn't much like
those neoprene socks anyway!

"FLM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello all:

So I have my first recumbent, a BikeE E2.

My question regards the use of cleated shoes/pedals on
recumbents. I have not seen much discussion of this.
Cleats would seem to be a good idea as I wouldn't have to
fight against gravity to keep my foot on the pedal.
However, I am concerned that cleats would be more
difficult to get in/out of on a bent than an upright. Oh,
and just to make me a double newbie, please note that I
have not used cleats before either, on any type of bike.

So: Cleats on a bent: is it a good idea? Can you get
in/out of them quickly? What brand of cleat would you
recommend?

See you on RAGBRAI, -Frank

Harry Spatz said:

Yes, clipless pedals are an excellent idea on a 'bent. If
you fall, you must keep your legs in front of you. DON'T
TRY TO BRAKE THE FALL BY PUTTING A FOOT DOWN! Clipless
pedals will help you not to do this....

On a lowracer, the fall occurs so quickly that the rider
will land on his/her hip before he or she has time to
take action.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad Cities

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harry Spatz said:

Yes, clipless pedals are an excellent idea on a 'bent.
If you fall, you must keep your legs in front of you.
DON'T TRY TO BRAKE THE FALL BY

PUTTING

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A FOOT DOWN! Clipless pedals will help you not to do
this....

On a lowracer, the fall occurs so quickly that the rider
will land on his/her hip before he or she has time to
take action.

Every fall I have ever taken on any recumbent has been so
fast that I never had time to even think about putting a
foot down. I went down with the bike every time and took the
impact on my shoulder and/or hip. I have only had a few bad
falls, but I will remember them for the rest of my life. All
of my falls on my recumbents have been due to the front
wheel falling into a longitudinal crack in the road and
getting caught. I never had these kind of accidents when I
was riding an upright.

I have also discovered that the faster you go, the more
likely it is that you are going to have a really bad
accident sooner or later. It is better to slow down and live
longer and healthier.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Quoted message said:

--
Tom Sherman – Quad Cities

What happened to Illinois Side?

On Mon, 17 May 2004 18:43:33 -0500, Tom Sherman
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On a lowracer, the fall occurs so quickly that the rider
will land on his/her hip before he or she has time to
take action.

Every fall I've had on a wedgie has happened so fast I've
not had time to take action as well. Which, come to think of
it, might explain why I fell ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

I have used spd cleats for years, very simple to use, easy
to find, and clips in easily and out to Shimano pedals. The
advantage I see to cleats is they allow for power from the
return stroke of the crank, and that makes it less tiring to
move the bike forward. I feel much safer clipped in so close
to a moving wheel with my feet.

"Melanie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have used spd cleats for years, very simple to use, easy
to find, and clips in easily and out to Shimano pedals.
The advantage I see to cleats is they allow for power from
the return stroke of the crank, and that makes it less
tiring to move the bike forward. I feel much safer clipped
in so close to a moving wheel with my feet.

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't really
work. Unless you consciously think about it you will not
pull back on the pedal on the upstroke. Basically, we are
all hammer heads.

Also, cleats work just fine as long as you are upright and
moving forward. When you are going down and about to hit the
pavement they are a complication. But still, you are
probably better off with your feet married to the pedals
than you would be otherwise. I sometimes think we recumbent
cyclists should wear hip pads so when we do go down we will
minimize the damage to our hips.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

"Melanie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have used spd cleats for years, very simple to use, easy
to find, and clips in easily and out to Shimano pedals.
The advantage I see to cleats is they allow for power from
the return stroke of the crank, and that makes it less
tiring to move the bike forward. I feel much safer clipped
in so close to a moving wheel with my feet.

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't really
work. Unless you consciously think about it you will not
pull back on the pedal on the upstroke. Basically, we are
all hammer heads.

Here is a discussion that touches on this subject. It will
keep you occupied for a few hours. 😉 <s.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2384513101d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&c2coff=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=-
1995&as_maxd=4&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2004&selm=7tgq10l88qtqr423-
0vfcvo9ct694j1uj0f%404ax.com>.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

"Melanie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have used spd cleats for years, very simple to use,
easy to find, and clips in easily and out to Shimano
pedals. The advantage I see to cleats is they allow for
power from the return stroke of the crank, and that
makes it less tiring to move the bike forward. I feel
much safer clipped in so close to a moving wheel with
my feet.

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't really
work. Unless you consciously

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it you will not pull back on the pedal on the
upstroke. Basically,

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are all hammer heads.

Here is a discussion that touches on this subject. It will
keep you occupied for a few hours. 😉 <

s.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2384513101d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&c2coff=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=-
1995&as_maxd=4&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2004&selm=7tgq10l88qtqr423-
0vfcvo9ct694j1uj0f%404ax.com>.

Quoted message said:

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

I am familiar with those arguments but it is not a natural
thing to do to pull up on the pedals. Only a racer will
train to do this. The rest of us will not do it unless we
are consciously thinking of it or unless we have been
trained to do it. There is no doubt however that if you do
it you will be a much more efficient cyclist. But the fact
remains that most of us will never do it. As you no doubt
are well aware by now, I am always with what the main stream
cyclists do, not what the very small minority of racer type
cyclists do.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Quoted message said:

I am familiar with those arguments but it is not a natural
thing to do to pull up on the pedals. Only a racer will
train to do this. The rest of us will not do it unless we
are consciously thinking of it or unless we have been
trained to do it.

I'm no racer but I do find that if I come unexpectedly
unclipped my leg goes 'twoing' towards my chin. I may have
thought about pulling on the pedals consciously at some
point (I can't remember any more), but by now it's just
become 2nd nature.

My all-out max-speed on the flat is something like 24
without clips and 31 with, so they must be helping somehow.
I think this counts even whilst I'm cruising at my normal
(and alas much slower) speed.

Kit

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also, cleats work just fine as long as you are upright and
moving forward. When you are going down and about to hit
the pavement they are a complication. But still, you are
probably better off with your feet

married

Quoted message said:

to the pedals than you would be otherwise.

I've used cleats since the early days of SPD pedals and I've
gone down a time or two while using them. I never found them
to be a complication - my feet always unclip with no
conscious effort on my part. This may be because most of the
year I wear SPD sandals for short rides and keep the cleat
retention set for the least effort release. The sandals
don't have the heel support for twisting out as a regular
bike shoe would have.

And yes, I tried to master the art of applying power to the
return stroke and it made a mess of my spin so I gave up on
it. There may be some power advantage that comes just from
being connected, but it would seem to be minimal at best.

skip

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't really
work. Unless you consciously

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it you will not pull back on the pedal on the
upstroke. Basically,

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are all hammer heads.

Here is a discussion that touches on this subject. It will
keep you occupied for a few hours. 😉 <

s.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2384513101d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&c2coff=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=-
1995&as_maxd=4&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2004&selm=7tgq10l88qtqr423-
0vfcvo9ct694j1uj0f%404ax.com>.

Quoted message said:

Tom it would be a kindness on your part if you would provide
a short synopsis of this discussion for those of us lacking
the attention span to devote a "few hours" to the subject.

skip

"Kit Wolf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am familiar with those arguments but it is not a
natural thing to do

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pull up on the pedals. Only a racer will train to do
this. The rest of

us

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will not do it unless we are consciously thinking of it
or unless we

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been trained to do it.

I'm no racer but I do find that if I come unexpectedly
unclipped my leg goes 'twoing' towards my chin. I may have
thought about pulling on the pedals consciously at some
point (I can't remember any more), but by now it's just
become 2nd nature.

You have trained yourself to do this. That is why it is
second nature. But the vast majority of cyclists will not do
this (pulling on the up stroke).

Quoted message said:

My all-out max-speed on the flat is something like 24
without clips and 31 with, so they must be helping
somehow. I think this counts even whilst I'm cruising at
my normal (and alas much slower) speed.

I also think if you can pull on the up stroke that it will
increase your efficiency and speed. Cleats help you do this
enormously. But even so most of us will not do this because
it never becomes second nature.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:08ydnb1xGv2z3jbdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also, cleats work just fine as long as you are upright
and moving

forward.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you are going down and about to hit the pavement
they are a complication. But still, you are probably
better off with your feet

married

Quoted message said:

to the pedals than you would be otherwise.

I've used cleats since the early days of SPD pedals and
I've gone down a time or two while using them. I never
found them to be a complication -

my

Quoted message said:

feet always unclip with no conscious effort on my part.
This may be

because

Quoted message said:

most of the year I wear SPD sandals for short rides and
keep the cleat retention set for the least effort release.
The sandals don't have the

heel

Quoted message said:

support for twisting out as a regular bike shoe
would have.

And yes, I tried to master the art of applying power to
the return stroke and it made a mess of my spin so I gave
up on it. There may be some power advantage that comes
just from being connected, but it would seem to be minimal
at best.

skip

Skip, you are quite correct that it requires learning and
discipline to remember to pull on the up (return) stroke. I
gave up on that long ago. If you have to think about your
spin you are never going to get it right. Just do what comes
naturally and that is about as good as it gets. Only racers
can train themselves to spin a certain way so as to gain the
advantage of an up stroke. Most of the rest of us really do
not want to work that hard at cycling.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"skip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2h0urtF7l91pU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't
really work. Unless you consciously

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it you will not pull back on the pedal on the
upstroke.

Basically,

Quoted message said:

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are all hammer heads.

Here is a discussion that touches on this subject. It
will keep you occupied for a few hours. 😉 <

s.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2384513101d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&c2coff=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=-
1995&as_maxd=4&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2004&selm=7tgq10l88qtqr423-
0vfcvo9ct694j1uj0f%404ax.com>.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom it would be a kindness on your part if you would
provide a short synopsis of this discussion for those of
us lacking the attention span to devote a "few hours" to
the subject.

skip

Mr. Sherman cannot side track me as I can get the gist of
something in a trice. As a former librarian I gave up on
wading through mountains of literature long ago in order
to save my sanity. Most librarians actually go crazy
because they think they have to read everything. I said
to myself - screw that! I am only going to read what
interests me and when it no longer interests me I am not
going to read it. But that is because I have a
brilliance bordering on genius and all the Mr. Shermans
in this world are not going to get me to read anything I
don't want to read.

The Internet amazes me because it offers the universe if you
want to read
Ms. However, if you have a passing acquaintance with Plato,
Aristotle and Socrates you will quickly learn that 99%
of the [censored] on the Internet is not worth reading. It is
garbage pure and simple and the only purpose of it is to
distract us from our humanity. I think the Internet may
well go the way of the TV - a vast wasteland designed
for the 12 year old mentality. We should all be reading
the golden oldies of classical literature (Greek and
Roman) instead of slumming in the present.era.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota

On 19 May 2004 03:44:40 -0700, [email hidden]
(Melanie) wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

The advantage I see to cleats is they allow for power from
the return stroke of the crank, and that makes it less
tiring to move the bike forward.

IME you're unlikely to actually pull up (and can come
unclipped on SPD if you do, especially if you use the silver
multi-release cleats - I use black single release on the
bent. You do, however, apply power for more of the pedal
stroke, from just before TDC to almost BDC, giving a much
smoother pedalling cadence.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

skip said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2h0urtF7l91pU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

That is quite an illusion about the return stroke. In
theory it makes sense, but in practice it doesn't really
work. Unless you consciously

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it you will not pull back on the pedal on the
upstroke. Basically,

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are all hammer heads.

Here is a discussion that touches on this subject. It will
keep you occupied for a few hours. 😉 <

google.com/groups?q=g:thl2384513101d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&c2coff=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_min-
y=1995&as_maxd=4&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2004&selm=7tgq10l88qtq-
r4230vfcvo9ct694j1uj0f%404ax.com>.

Tom it would be a kindness on your part if you would
provide a short synopsis of this discussion for those of
us lacking the attention span to devote a "few hours" to
the subject.

There are only 550 posts on the referenced thread. 😉

What is came down to was an argument on whether or not
overall aerobic capacity (and therefore performance) could
be increased by bringing the extra muscles into use that are
required to complete the full rotation of the PowerCranks
[1]. Unfortunately, advanced level knowledge of human
physiology is required to follow some of the discussion.

The conclusion I drew from the discussion is that further
study is needed.

[1] <http://www.powercranks.com/hometext.html>.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area