Groin Muscles and Massage - Apparently Not!

Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
abdominal massage, and I have indicated its importance.
However, since I do sports massage every so often, maybe I
am more sensitized. But don't expect psoas work unless it's
indicated, since most massage tends to be relaxation instead
of true therapeutic, IMO.

Marty Alias <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
. Seriously, not a single MT (until the last one) has gone
near

Quoted message said:

my groin muscles: Gracilis, Adductor Longus, Pectineus,
Psoas, Iliopsoas.

So, I gotta ask, is this region off the table for males?
Are you trying to avoid my genital region? Are you trying
to avoid a physiologic response that would embarass the
hell out of me if you did go there? Is there no massage
benefit from working those muscles? What do you do for an
athlete that comes to you with a "pulled groin muscle"?

The MT's I've seen have done some light work in the
insertion area farther down the leg of some of these
muscles, but all have stayed away from the origin of these
muscles, which being from the symphisis pubis (sp?) (in
some cases) is awfully close to the male genital area.

So, what's the deal with these muscles and massage, or
the absence

thereof?

Quoted message said:

Marty

As a female MT I will offer my view point.

If a male is a regular and bring up that he needs those
areas worked on, I will most definitely. If a man comes in
for his first massage and that is something he brings up
immediately, it raises the red flag for me. Red flag meaning
he might have other intentions. I had a male client come in
and when asked to circle what hurts/needs attention on the
medical form, all circles were the groin and gluteus area.
No, he was FAR from an athlete.

If that is important for you to get massaged, talk to the
therapist, one whom you have seen already and ask how 'we'
can comfortably work that area.

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin
muscle though.

T "Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Everyone,

Didjyall have a good weekend? Lots of rest and relaxation
and just a little work? I sure hope so!

Listen, if you would, I have a question, both practical
and rhetorical, to present to this ng.

In the last few months I've had the opportunity to receive
my first several massages (about a dozen) from several
massage therapists (4); you're right, each of you is
different and with something different to offer. I sure
wish I had unlimited funds; I'd get a massage twice a day
- once after crawling out of bed and once while I'm
crawling home from work. You guys are great!

I realized something recently, and boy does my head hurt
from thinking about it. Seriously, not a single MT (until
the last one) has gone near my groin muscles: Gracilis,
Adductor Longus, Pectineus, Psoas, Iliopsoas.

So, I gotta ask, is this region off the table for males?
Are you trying to avoid my genital region? Are you trying
to avoid a physiologic response that would embarass the
hell out of me if you did go there? Is there no massage
benefit from working those muscles? What do you do for an
athlete that comes to you with a "pulled groin muscle"?

The MT's I've seen have done some light work in the
insertion area farther down the leg of some of these
muscles, but all have stayed away from the origin of these
muscles, which being from the symphisis pubis (sp?) (in
some cases) is awfully close to the male genital area.

So, what's the deal with these muscles and massage, or
the absence

thereof?

Quoted message said:

Marty

HI Tiffany
IMO
Psoas work is in a "sensitive" are as well and although not attached as
adductors are, well it requires special consent especially working the
distal attachment at the lesser trochanter (origin/insertion techniques).
You gotta get your hands in "there" for effective treatment.
see link:
exrx.netIliopsoas.htmlOpen ↗

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin
muscle though.

"Michael Baugh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
abdominal massage, and

I

Quoted message said:

have indicated its importance. However, since I do sports
massage every so often, maybe I am more sensitized. But
don't expect psoas work unless it's indicated, since most
massage tends to be relaxation instead of true
therapeutic, IMO.

You sure got that one right. I think most clients probably
wouldn't come back if you spent the hour doing deep work on
the scalenes and psoas! (Two areas I need most often.) I had
massage done for over 5 years (trying different therapists)
for the same problem (also saw an MD and a chiropractor for
it) UNTIL I finally ran across a massage therapist who went
right to the problem area (psoas) and fixed the problem for
me for several YEARS.

In reference to a couple of the other posters on this
thread: If you do

mind!!! <VBG> It is hardly relaxing or likely to "set the
mood", so to speak.

"Tiffany" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As a female MT I will offer my view point.

If a male is a regular and bring up that he needs those
areas worked on, I will most definitely. If a man comes in
for his first massage and that is something he brings up
immediately, it raises the red flag for me. Red

flag

Quoted message said:

meaning he might have other intentions. I had a male
client come in and

when

Quoted message said:

asked to circle what hurts/needs attention on the medical
form, all

circles

Quoted message said:

were the groin and gluteus area. No, he was FAR from an
athlete.

If that is important for you to get massaged, talk to the
therapist, one whom you have seen already and ask how 'we'
can comfortably work that

area.

Quoted message said:

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin
muscle though.

T

Hey Tiffany,

If THAT'S what they ask for, just do some deep psoas work on
'em. That ought to sort out intentions real fast <g>. (As
for me, that is exactly what I'd be expecting.)

George

Tiffany said:

As a female MT I will offer my view point.

If a male is a regular and bring up that he needs those
areas worked on, I will most definitely. If a man comes in
for his first massage and that is something he brings up
immediately, it raises the red flag for me. Red flag
meaning he might have other intentions. I had a male
client come in and when asked to circle what hurts/needs
attention on the medical form, all circles were the groin
and gluteus area. No, he was FAR from an athlete.

If that is important for you to get massaged, talk to the
therapist, one whom you have seen already and ask how 'we'
can comfortably work that area.

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin
muscle though.

T

Ignorance! I'm lucky I got any of the names right. Are you
telling me I only messed up one? It's been a long time since
I had anatomy.

Your point about the regular status of your male client is
telling. The one MT who did move toward the groin muscles,
and the upper area at that, only did so after I had clearly
established that I don't go to

When it comes to circling areas that need work, it would be
easier for me to circle what doesn't need work!

Marty

"mossrite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HI Tiffany IMO Psoas work is in a "sensitive" are as well
and although not attached as adductors are, well it
requires special consent especially working the distal
attachment at the lesser trochanter (origin/insertion
techniques). You gotta get your hands in "there" for
effective treatment. see link:
exrx.netIliopsoas.htmlOpen ↗

We were trained to get to that pesky muscle through the abs.
Not to many folks enjoy it but if its needed they are more
then happy to deal.

mossrite said:

HI Tiffany IMO Psoas work is in a "sensitive" are as well
and although not attached as adductors are, well it
requires special consent especially working the distal
attachment at the lesser trochanter (origin/insertion
techniques). You gotta get your hands in "there" for
effective treatment. see link:
exrx.netIliopsoas.htmlOpen ↗

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin
muscle though.

Your link takes us to an illustration that I'd bet money
on is the accurate example of the area my MT tried to
massage. That's not the area that needs work, but the
offer to work that area since I'm a "trusted" client, is
what made me think about the lack of work done in the
gracilis origin etc area.

That brings up another question, sort of. These groin
muscles are like steel cables to the touch with even the
slightest "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one
of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?

Marty

Just my two cents..

Try an A.R.T. ( Active Release ) Have the patient lying
supine, locate the anterior superior iliac crest(spine).
Have the patient bring thier knee up while keeping the foot
flat on the table.

When the patient brings the knee up you will feel the two
muscles (iliacus and psoas) get taught. Apply a digital
compresion to that band and have the patient lower the leg
to flat. The patient will feel tight (doing this tech.), but
it will become easier with repitition,at least 3.

Also, might want to check out the need for Orthotics (leg
length, fallen arch & pelvic shift).

I treat alot of runners at my clinic and most are
overpronating on one leg due to a fallen ach in the foot.

G.L, D;-) "Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tiffany said:

As a female MT I will offer my view point.

If a male is a regular and bring up that he needs those
areas worked on,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will most definitely. If a man comes in for his first
massage and that

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something he brings up immediately, it raises the red
flag for me. Red

flag

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

meaning he might have other intentions. I had a male
client come in and

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

asked to circle what hurts/needs attention on the
medical form, all

circles

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were the groin and gluteus area. No, he was FAR from an
athlete.

If that is important for you to get massaged, talk to
the therapist, one whom you have seen already and ask
how 'we' can comfortably work that

area.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin muscle
though.

T

Ignorance! I'm lucky I got any of the names right. Are you
telling me I only messed up one? It's been a long time
since I had anatomy.

Your point about the regular status of your male client is
telling. The one MT who did move toward the groin muscles,
and the upper area at that, only did so after I had
clearly established that I don't go to

Quoted message said:

When it comes to circling areas that need work, it would
be easier for me to circle what doesn't need work!

Marty

"Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tiffany said:

As a female MT I will offer my view point.

If a male is a regular and bring up that he needs those
areas worked on,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will most definitely. If a man comes in for his first
massage and that

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something he brings up immediately, it raises the red
flag for me. Red

flag

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

meaning he might have other intentions. I had a male
client come in and

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

asked to circle what hurts/needs attention on the
medical form, all

circles

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were the groin and gluteus area. No, he was FAR from an
athlete.

If that is important for you to get massaged, talk to
the therapist, one whom you have seen already and ask
how 'we' can comfortably work that

area.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin muscle
though.

T

Ignorance! I'm lucky I got any of the names right. Are you
telling me I only messed up one? It's been a long time
since I had anatomy.

Your point about the regular status of your male client is
telling. The one MT who did move toward the groin muscles,
and the upper area at that, only did so after I had
clearly established that I don't go to

Quoted message said:

When it comes to circling areas that need work, it would
be easier for me to circle what doesn't need work!

Marty

lol

So when you go back, specify again that your inner thigh
muscles are extremely tight. Maybe that will sound better
then 'groin'. lol

T

LOL, we are learning to work on this area right now in
school!! I agree,

uneducated client!! Same with internal windchannels.
"George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Baugh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
abdominal massage,

and

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

have indicated its importance. However, since I do
sports massage every

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

often, maybe I am more sensitized. But don't expect
psoas work unless

it's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

indicated, since most massage tends to be relaxation
instead of true therapeutic, IMO.

You sure got that one right. I think most clients probably
wouldn't come back if you spent the hour doing deep work
on the scalenes and psoas!

(Two

Quoted message said:

areas I need most often.) I had massage done for over 5
years (trying different therapists) for the same problem
(also saw an MD and a chiropractor for it) UNTIL I finally
ran across a massage therapist who

went

Quoted message said:

right to the problem area (psoas) and fixed the problem
for me for several YEARS.

In reference to a couple of the other posters on this
thread: If you do

Quoted message said:

mind!!! <VBG> It is hardly relaxing or likely to "set the
mood", so to speak.

Hi Tiffany Yes you can access the psoas just around the
region of the inguinal ligament, (lower left and right
quadrant of the abdomen). Palpate the ligament with the
thumb, forefingers resting on glut minimus. If you move just
below the ligament and lateral till you feel the wing of the
illium then hook your thumb slightly into the fossa and
apply perpendicular pressure you can perform golgi tendon
release and relax a taut psoas. As poster George has
suggested, it is VERY tender work, intensely painful. The
technique I was referring to as an alternative is
origin/insertion work where fingertip pressure/circular
fingertip massage on the attachment will sometimes relax a
muscle as well. This can be done with the client supine and
leg in figure four (faber) to access the lesser trochanter
(where the illiopsoas attaches). Like I said earlier, it is
a very sensitive area and specific client consent should be
obtained for this treatment.

"Tiffany" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"mossrite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

HI Tiffany IMO Psoas work is in a "sensitive" are as
well and although not attached as adductors are, well it
requires special consent especially working the distal
attachment at the lesser trochanter (origin/insertion

techniques).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You gotta get your hands in "there" for effective
treatment. see link:
exrx.netIliopsoas.htmlOpen ↗

We were trained to get to that pesky muscle through the
abs. Not to many folks enjoy it but if its needed they are
more then happy to deal.

Marty Alias said:

mossrite said:

HI Tiffany IMO Psoas work is in a "sensitive" are as
well and although not attached as adductors are, well it
requires special consent especially working the distal
attachment at the lesser trochanter (origin/insertion
techniques). You gotta get your hands in "there" for
effective treatment. see link:
exrx.netIliopsoas.htmlOpen ↗

Not sure why you refer to the Iliopoas as a groin muscle
though.

Your link takes us to an illustration that I'd bet money
on is the accurate example of the area my MT tried to
massage. That's not the area that needs work, but the
offer to work that area since I'm a "trusted" client, is
what made me think about the lack of work done in the
gracilis origin etc area.

That brings up another question, sort of. These groin
muscles are like steel cables to the touch with even the
slightest "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one
of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?

They're very tight in a lot of people. I though the gracilis
was a bone until I went to massage school. One of the
teachers said they could be tight because of early and
strict toilet training. A kid might tense his muscles too
hard to keep it in and they overreact.

sue

douglas said:

Just my two cents..

Try an A.R.T. ( Active Release ) Have the patient lying
supine, locate the anterior superior iliac crest(spine).
Have the patient bring thier knee up while keeping the
foot flat on the table.

When the patient brings the knee up you will feel the two
muscles (iliacus and psoas) get taught. Apply a digital
compresion to that band and have the patient lower the leg
to flat. The patient will feel tight (doing this tech.),
but it will become easier with repitition,at least 3.

Also, might want to check out the need for Orthotics (leg
length, fallen arch & pelvic shift).

I treat alot of runners at my clinic and most are
overpronating on one leg due to a fallen ach in the foot.

G.L,

I've noticed that my left foot is starting to turn outward
when I walk. I think it's compensation for my ruptured
lumbar disk.

The A.R.T. you describe seems like what the MT was trying to
do. I'll bring your description with me next time.

With the previous reply referring to toilet training, I was
afraid of where you might have been headed when you started
with "Active Release!"

Marty

So...just for curiosity, do you happen to have a longer
second toe?

Marty Alias <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That brings up another question, sort of. These groin
muscles are like steel cables to the touch with even the
slightest "stretch" taking place. Is this normal or is one
of the reasons I have such poor flexibility?

Marty

But it does call for an initial trust, especially if it's a
female client and a masseur. Assuming the 'figure of 4' leg
position can cause her to feel rather...exposed. But the
massage relationship is one of trust. If you can't go with
that, better to be flipping hamburgers.

Ed <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ENRqc.35564$6f5.3607525@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

LOL, we are learning to work on this area right now in
school!! I agree,

Quoted message said:

uneducated client!! Same with internal windchannels.
"George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michael Baugh" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Another massage recipient has indicated the lack of
abdominal massage,

and

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

have indicated its importance. However, since I do
sports massage

every

Quoted message said:

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

often, maybe I am more sensitized. But don't expect
psoas work unless

it's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

indicated, since most massage tends to be relaxation
instead of true therapeutic, IMO.

You sure got that one right. I think most clients
probably wouldn't

come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back if you spent the hour doing deep work on the
scalenes and psoas!

(Two

Quoted message said:

areas I need most often.) I had massage done for over 5
years (trying different therapists) for the same problem
(also saw an MD and a chiropractor for it) UNTIL I
finally ran across a massage therapist who

went

Quoted message said:

right to the problem area (psoas) and fixed the problem
for me for

several

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

YEARS.

In reference to a couple of the other posters on this
thread: If you do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mind!!! <VBG> It is hardly relaxing or likely to "set
the mood", so to speak.

Do you get any foot cramps?

A.R.T. techniques are what a chiropractor will use to
address the conective tissue..

Myofascial.

I get M.V.A.'s from Chiros to help with tissue re-
organization. Physiotherapy= develope scarring to develope
strength and stablize Chiropractic= manipulate the spinal
nerve roots to reboot and temporary ( without a Tx. Plan)
relieve symptoms. How many Chiro's are implementing soft
tissue work? P.N.F. -T.P.'s- A.R.T.

Let us all try to help heal and recognize the RED FLAGS..

P.S.up here, the Chiropractors and Physiotherapist are
worried because they may not receive government funding
in the future.

Douglas "Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

douglas said:

Just my two cents..

Try an A.R.T. ( Active Release ) Have the patient lying
supine, locate the anterior superior iliac crest(spine).
Have the patient bring thier knee up while keeping the
foot flat on the table.

When the patient brings the knee up you will feel the
two muscles

(iliacus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and psoas) get taught. Apply a digital compresion to
that band and have the patient lower the

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to flat. The patient will feel tight (doing this tech.),
but it will become

easier

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with repitition,at least 3.

Also, might want to check out the need for Orthotics
(leg length, fallen arch & pelvic shift).

I treat alot of runners at my clinic and most are
overpronating on one

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

due to a fallen ach in the foot.

G.L,

I've noticed that my left foot is starting to turn outward
when I walk. I think it's compensation for my ruptured
lumbar disk.

The A.R.T. you describe seems like what the MT was trying
to do. I'll bring your description with me next time.

With the previous reply referring to toilet training, I
was afraid of where you might have been headed when you
started with "Active Release!"

Marty

lol just appreciating your sense of humor Marty

mj "Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

douglas said:

Just my two cents..

Try an A.R.T. ( Active Release ) Have the patient lying
supine, locate the anterior superior iliac crest(spine).
Have the patient bring thier knee up while keeping the
foot flat on the table.

When the patient brings the knee up you will feel the
two muscles

(iliacus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and psoas) get taught. Apply a digital compresion to
that band and have the patient lower the

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to flat. The patient will feel tight (doing this tech.),
but it will become

easier

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with repitition,at least 3.

Also, might want to check out the need for Orthotics
(leg length, fallen arch & pelvic shift).

I treat alot of runners at my clinic and most are
overpronating on one

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

due to a fallen ach in the foot.

G.L,

I've noticed that my left foot is starting to turn outward
when I walk. I think it's compensation for my ruptured
lumbar disk.

The A.R.T. you describe seems like what the MT was trying
to do. I'll bring your description with me next time.

With the previous reply referring to toilet training, I
was afraid of where you might have been headed when you
started with "Active Release!"

Marty

"Marty Alias" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

douglas said:

Just my two cents..

Try an A.R.T. ( Active Release ) Have the patient lying
supine, locate the anterior superior iliac crest(spine).
Have the patient bring thier knee up while keeping the
foot flat on the table.

When the patient brings the knee up you will feel the
two muscles

(iliacus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and psoas) get taught. Apply a digital compresion to
that band and have the patient lower the

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to flat. The patient will feel tight (doing this tech.),
but it will become

easier

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with repitition,at least 3.

Also, might want to check out the need for Orthotics
(leg length, fallen arch & pelvic shift).

I treat alot of runners at my clinic and most are
overpronating on one

leg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

due to a fallen ach in the foot.

G.L,

I've noticed that my left foot is starting to turn outward
when I walk. I think it's compensation for my ruptured
lumbar disk.

The A.R.T. you describe seems like what the MT was trying
to do. I'll bring your description with me next time.

With the previous reply referring to toilet training, I
was afraid of where you might have been headed when you
started with "Active Release!"

Marty

I also recommend yoga (but I almost always recommend that).
There are some stretches that will get those muscles
stretched.

T