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The way to break out of the pro-car, anti-car debate?

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Australia and New Zealand
Published
21 May 2004
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2 June 2004
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Drs
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  1. Why don't we do it in the road? A new school of traffic
    design says we should get rid of stop signs and red lights
    and let cars, bikes and people mingle together. It sounds
    insane, but it works.

    By Linda Baker salon.com20
    /traffic_design/index.html

    May 20, 2004 | It's rush hour, and I am standing at the
    corner of Zhuhui and Renmin Road, a four-lane intersection
    in Suzhou, China. Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis
    and a dozen bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of
    cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning left in
    front of me. Cringing, I anticipate a collision. Like a
    flock of migrating birds, however, the mass changes
    formation. A space opens up, the taxis and bicycles move in,
    and hundreds of commuters continue down the street,
    unperturbed and fatality free.

    In Suzhou, the traffic rules are simple. "There are no
    rules," as one local told me. A city of 2.2 million people,
    Suzhou has 500,000 cars and 900,000 bicycles, not to
    mention hundreds of pedicabs, mopeds and assorted, quainter
    forms of transportation. Drivers of all modes pay little
    attention to the few traffic signals and weave wildly from
    one side of the street to another. Defying survival
    instincts, pedestrians have to barge between oncoming cars
    to cross the roads.

    But here's the catch: During the 10 days I spent in Suzhou
    last fall, I didn't see a single accident. Really, not a
    single one. Nor was there any of the road rage one might
    expect given the anarchy that passes for traffic policy. And
    despite the obvious advantages that accrue to cars because
    of their size, no single transportation mode dominates the
    streets. On the contrary, the urban arterials are a communal
    mix of automobiles, cyclists, pedestrians, and small
    businesses such as inner-tube repairmen that set up shop
    directly in the right-of-way.

    As the mother of two young children and an alternative-
    transportation advocate, I've spent the past decade
    supporting the installation of ever more traffic controls:
    crosswalks, traffic signals, speed bumps, and speed limit
    signs in school zones. But I'd only been in Suzhou a few
    days before I started thinking that maybe there's a method
    to the city's traffic madness -- a logic that has nothing to
    do with the system of prohibition and segregation that
    governs transportation policy in the United States.

    As it turns out, I'm far from the first person to think
    along these lines. In fact, the chaos associated with
    traffic in developing countries is becoming all the rage
    among a new wave of traffic engineers in mainland Europe
    and, more recently, in the United Kingdom. It's called
    "second generation" traffic calming, a combination of
    traffic engineering and urban design that also draws
    heavily on the fields of behavioral psychology and -- of
    all subjects -- evolutionary biology. Rejecting the idea
    of separating people from vehicular traffic, it's a
    concept that privileges multiplicity over homogeneity,
    disorder over order, and intrigue over certainty. In
    practice, it's about dismantling barriers: between the
    road and the sidewalk, between cars, pedestrians and
    cyclists and, most controversially, between moving
    vehicles and children at play.

    For the past 50 years, the American approach to traffic
    safety has been dominated by the "triple E" paradigm:
    engineering, enforcement and education. And yet, the idea of
    the street as a flexible community space is a provocative
    one in the United States, precisely because other
    "traditional" modes of transportation -- light rail,
    streetcars and bicycles -- are making a comeback in cities
    across the country. The shared-street concept is also
    intriguing for the way it challenges one of the fundamental
    tenets of American urban planning: that to create safe
    communities, you have to control them.

    "One of the characteristics of a shared environment is that
    it appears chaotic, it appears very complex, and it demands
    a strong level of having your wits about you," says U.K.
    traffic and urban design consultant Ben Hamilton-Baillie,
    speaking from his home in Bristol. "The history of traffic
    engineering is the effort to rationalize what appeared to be
    chaos," he says. "Today, we have a better understanding that
    chaos can be productive."

    A few years ago, Hamilton-Baillie spent several months
    researching traffic and street design in northwest Europe,
    followed by a stint as a Loeb fellow at Harvard. A former
    researcher at Sustrans, a sustainable-transportation
    nonprofit agency, he has become a leading proponent of the
    shared-spaces and second-generation approach, which he says
    meets the needs of automobiles while returning streets to
    their historic function as civic gathering places.

    But the implications, especially in the United States, are
    nothing less than radical. Reversing decades of conventional
    wisdom on traffic engineering, Hamilton-Baillie argues that
    the key to improving both safety and vehicular capacity is
    to remove traffic lights and other controls, such as stop
    signs and the white and yellow lines dividing streets into
    lanes. Without any clear right-of-way, he says, motorists
    are forced to slow down to safer speeds, make eye contact
    with pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers, and decide
    among themselves when it is safe to proceed.

    "The more you post the evidence of legislative control, such
    as traffic signs, the less the driver is trying to use his
    or her own senses," says Hamilton-Baillie, noting he has a
    habit of walking randomly across roads -- much to his wife's
    consternation. "So the less you can advertise the presence
    of the state in terms of authority, the more effective this
    approach can be." This, of course, is the exact opposite of
    the "Triple E" traffic-calming approach, which seeks to
    control the driver through the use of speed bumps, photo
    radar, crosswalks and other engineering and enforcement
    mechanisms.

    The "self-reading street" has its roots in the Dutch
    "woonerf" design principles that emerged in the 1970s.
    Blurring the boundary between street and sidewalk, woonerfs
    combine innovative paving, landscaping and other urban
    designs to allow for the integration of multiple functions
    in a single street, so that pedestrians, cyclists and
    children playing share the road with slow-moving cars. The
    pilot projects were so successful in fostering better urban
    environments that the ideas spread rapidly to Belgium,
    France, Denmark and Germany. In 1998, the British government
    adopted a "Home Zones" initiative -- the woonerf equivalent
    -- as part of its national transportation policy.

    "What the early woonerf principles realized," says Hamilton-
    Baillie, "was that there was a two-way interaction between
    people and traffic. It was a vicious or, rather, a
    virtuous circle: The busier the streets are, the safer
    they become. So once you drive people off the street, they
    become less safe."

    Contrast this approach with that of the United Kingdom and
    the United States, where education campaigns from the 1960s
    onward were based on maintaining a clear separation between
    the highway and the rest of the public realm. Children were
    trained to modify their behavior and, under pain of death,
    to stay out of the street. "But as soon as you emphasize
    separation of functions, you have a more dangerous
    environment," says Hamilton-Baillie. "Because then the
    driver sees that he or she has priority. And the child who
    forgets for a moment and chases a ball across the street is
    a child in the wrong place."

    When it comes to reconfiguring streets as community spaces,
    ground zero is once again Holland and Denmark, where
    planners are removing traffic lights in some towns and
    cities, as well as white divider lines, sidewalks and speed
    limits. Research has shown that fatality rates at busy
    intersections, where two or three people were being killed
    every year, dropped to zero when controls and boundaries
    were taken away. (This is food for thought among alternative-
    transportation advocates in the United States, who extol
    northern Europe as a model precisely because so much space
    in these countries is dedicated to segregated pedestrian
    spaces and bike lanes.)

    A photo of a reconstructed intersection, "the Brink," in the
    Dutch province of Friesland, provides more design details.
    Until 1998, the Brink was a standard asphalt intersection
    with traffic controls and segregated spaces. Today, the
    entire area has been repaved with red bricks bordered by
    sections of green railing. A raised piazza juts into the
    middle of the intersection, but there are no sidewalks, road
    markings, or right-of-way signs. Every day, 4,500 cars share
    the space with cyclists and pedestrians who wander about
    "the road" at will.

    Hamilton-Baillie recalls visiting "the Brink" with Hans
    Mondermann of the Friesland Regional Organization for
    Traffic Safety, a planner who has redesigned several
    intersections with second-generation ideas in mind. "I was
    amazed to hear him say, 'Have you ever seen so many traffic
    violations?'" said Hamilton-Baillie. "'No rules, no rules,'
    he told me. 'You have to think.'"

    Subvert, don't attack, the dominant paradigm. Or, as David
    Engwicht, a shared-spaces proponent in Brisbane, Australia,
    has written: "Implicit in the whole notion of second-
    generation traffic calming is the idea that significant
    social change only happens when we amplify the paradoxical
    'submerged voice' as opposed to tearing down the 'dominant
    voice.' Engwicht, a plenary speaker at the Walk 21 Cities
    for People Conference in Copenhagen this June, argues that
    controlling a driver's natural propensity for speed is
    futile. A more effective approach is to engage the driver by
    emphasizing "uncertainty and intrigue" in the street
    environment -- for example, planting a tree in the middle of
    the street instead of putting up a stop sign.

    "Standardized signage and use of standardized road markings
    should be reduced to a minimum," Engwicht writes. "As they
    create predictability and contain no intrigue. They also
    reinforce that a street belongs exclusively to the
    motorists."

    There's another step in the second-generation logic process.
    Safety analysts have known for several decades that the
    maximum vehicle speed at which pedestrians can escape severe
    injury upon impact is just under 20 miles per hour. Research
    also suggests that an individual's ability to interact and
    retain eye contact with other human beings diminishes
    rapidly at speeds greater than 20 miles per hour. One theory
    behind this magic bullet, says Hamilton-Baillie, is that 20
    mph is the "maximum theoretical running speed" for human
    beings. (Evolutionary biologist E.O. Wilson has drawn
    similar conclusions.) "This is of interest," he says,
    "because it suggests that our physiology and psychology has
    evolved based around the potential maximum impact on the
    speed of human beings."

    The ramifications go beyond safety, says Hamilton-Baillie,
    to bear directly on the interplay between speed, traffic
    controls and vehicle capacity. Evidence from countries and
    cities that have introduced a design speed of 30 kilometers
    per hour (about 18.5 mph) -- as many of the European Union
    nations are doing -- shows that slower speeds improve
    traffic flow and reduce congestion.

    "This surprises many people, although mathematically it's
    not surprising," Hamilton-Baillie says. "The reason for this
    is that your speed of journey, the ability of traffic to
    move smoothly through the built environment, depends on
    performance of your intersections, not on your speed of flow
    between intersections." And intersections, he says, work
    much more efficiently at lower speeds. "At 30 miles per
    hour, you frequently need control systems like traffic
    signals, which themselves mean that the intersection is not
    in use for significant periods of time. Whereas at slower
    speeds vehicles can move much more closely together and
    drivers can use eye contact to engage and make decisions. So
    you get much higher capacity."

    Combining slower speeds with a reduction in traffic
    controls, in other words, may have more than public safety
    and shared-space benefits. It also appears to profit the
    driver. (This is the logic behind the modern roundabout, a
    redesigned version of the classic traffic circle that is
    replacing signalized intersections in the United Kingdom and
    is gaining acceptance among transportation officials in the
    United States).

    "You can see this is the way to break out of the pro-car,
    anti-car debate," Hamilton-Baillie says. "Because the shared
    approach very much accepts the car as a vital useful
    component in cities that will remain with us for some
    generations to come."

    Let's return to China for a minute. If traffic in the
    world's most populous country provides a useful comparison
    and contrast, it's because second-generation traffic calming
    isn't about anarchy; it's about studied anarchy. In essence,
    Hamilton-Baillie is advocating for a new field: one that
    blends traffic engineering with urban design. Or, as he
    titled an upcoming paper: "Urban Design: Why Don't We Do It
    in the Road?" There's a place for highways and roads
    dedicated solely to the movement of automobiles, he says.
    Just not in the city, where streets constitute 70 percent of
    all public space.

    "You have to have a completely different approach to the
    design of streets in the broad urban realm," he says. "You
    have to make an absolutely clear transition between those
    roads that are necessary, the state-controlled and
    legislative world of the traffic environment, to the human-
    controlled, culturally controlled world of the city, where
    you pick up your rules not from what you're allowed to do,
    but from a much more subtle and complex series of codes that
    are implicit through design and environment."

    "If I walk into your living room, I do not need a sign that
    says, Do Not Spit on the Floor," he explains. "Indeed, if
    there were such a sign, it would probably be
    counterproductive."

    Over the last few years, the shared-street concept has
    emigrated out of mainland Europe to the United Kingdom. In
    addition to home zones, which are cropping up in isolated
    residential developments, the city of Manchester is
    currently reconfiguring a major section of its central core
    according to shared-space principles. Hamilton-Baillie
    himself is working a project that he says is the first in
    the country to bring together all the elements of second-
    generation traffic calming: removing the road markings from
    a road that runs past a primary school in the city of Bath.
    It's a project, he says, that capitalizes on the area's
    "rich urban morphology" -- St. James Square, the school and
    a historic church -- to "create a series of places rather
    than a single highway."

    In the United States, as one might expect, policymakers
    haven't exactly embraced the virtues of ambiguity and
    uncertainty embodied in second-generation principles.
    "Woonerfs are certainly being planned on private property,"
    says James Daisa, a project manager at Kimley-Horn
    Associates and a national expert on pedestrian-friendly
    development. "But the concept has yet to come to bear on
    public streets." City codes are part of the problem, he
    says. The reluctance of traffic engineers is another.

    Consider the case of Brookline, Mass., which installed a
    woonerf in front of a Marriott Hotel last January. A
    patchwork of brick pavings, the shared-space lacks big
    curbs, and the sidewalk and street are all at the same
    level. But as reporter Anthony Flint noted in the Boston
    Globe, the public works department botched the entire
    concept by painting white lines and big right-turn arrows on
    the street, and placing yellow-and-black-striped rectangles
    on the landscaped "bump-outs."

    "It's clear that advocates and private developers aren't
    sufficient to bring about a true woonerf," wrote Flint. "The
    traffic engineers need to be in the room, and they need to
    understand the concept. A fact-finding trip to the
    Netherlands may be in order."

    For their part, many American traffic engineers say one
    critical ingredient is missing for a system built around
    shared spaces to work in the United States: a communal
    sensibility. "We live in a culture that gives so much value
    to the individual and the expression of that is how we act
    in a car," says Robert Burchfield, a city traffic engineer
    in my home town of Portland, Ore., which is nationally
    recognized for its preservation of public space and its
    dedicated network of cycling lanes and pedestrian pathways.
    "I'm not comfortable with less order when I can't get people
    to go below 50 or 60 miles per hour."

    But this, of course, is precisely the point; redesign the
    street environment as an active community space, and you
    equalize the power relationship between cars and human
    beings "The real gain in urban quality does not come from
    clawing back areas of the city from cars, as important as
    that is," said Hamilton-Baillie, who gave a talk at the
    Portland Department of Transportation last fall. "But the
    next step is how you apply a broader approach to those areas
    where you need cars and trucks, bicycles and shops, and
    pedestrians and children's play, all those different
    functions to take place in precious urban space."

    Even if we're not ready to send our children merrily into
    the street, many of us, intuitively, have already embraced
    the concepts behind second-generation traffic calming. Like
    most other parents, I've drilled into my kids the fact that
    traffic lights and signs work for cars, but don't
    necessarily serve pedestrians who want to make it across the
    street in one piece. "Look left, look right, look left
    again," I preach ad nauseum -- even when the walk signal is
    green. And who can resist the symbolism associated with
    recapturing the street for the (teeming) masses? It's not
    quite the fall of the Berlin Wall, but the shared-space
    approach overturns the landmarks of sedentary isolation --
    everything from gated communities to skyrocketing childhood
    obesity rates -- to celebrate the complexity and
    contradictions of city life.

    The absence of traffic controls means that people are out
    for themselves; the trick is, they have to look out for
    everyone else as well. Second-generation traffic design is a
    curious mix of selfishness and altruism, of order amid
    chaos. And, after a fashion, it just might work.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    B: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  2. one small detail you forgot to mention is that China has an annual road fatality figure of 100,000!!!

    That has more than doubled over the last 20 years as more and more chinese people can afford cars

  3. "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we do it in the road?

    Quoted message said:

    Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis and a dozen
    bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of cyclists,
    cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning left in front
    of me. Cringing, I anticipate a collision. Like a flock of
    migrating birds, however, the mass changes formation. A
    space opens up, the taxis and bicycles move in, and
    hundreds of commuters continue down the street,
    unperturbed and fatality free.

    The trouble is, those Chinese immigrate to Australia and try
    the same thing.

    Maybe that is why there are so many accidents...

  4. "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we do it in the road?

    Quoted message said:

    Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis and a dozen
    bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of
    cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning
    left in front of me. Cringing, I anticipate a collision.
    Like a flock of migrating birds, however, the mass
    changes formation. A space opens up, the taxis and
    bicycles move in, and hundreds of commuters continue
    down the street, unperturbed and fatality free.

    The trouble is, those Chinese immigrate to Australia and
    try the same thing.

    Maybe that is why there are so many accidents...

    Completely missed the point. didn't you? Too many words for
    you to read and you didn't get past the first paragraph.

    Vossaka

  5. Zebee Johnstone said:

    What's that as a percentage of population, and how does
    that percentage compare with Australia?

    Not relevant really because so much of the chinese
    population can not afford cars.

    And what "mother of two"[1] doesn't realise is that it works
    only if those chinese driving cars are courteous and those
    riding bicycles instantly murder anyone driver who knocks
    down a bicycle rider {:-)

    [1] I don't see it as relevant either, but it advances
    my theory that having children can make you
    stupid. Alternatively, I wonder what she was
    smoking at the time.

    The whole article reminds me of the ramlbing of a
    stoned/drunk introspective.

  6. 10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees, that
    must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up fatalities
    every day in Brisbane...

    Charlie

  7. "Charlie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees,
    that must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up
    fatalities every day in Brisbane...

    And according to the article that would be because...

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    B: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  8. "Vossaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we do it in the road?

    Quoted message said:

    Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis and a dozen
    bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of
    cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning
    left in front of me. Cringing, I anticipate a
    collision. Like a flock of migrating birds, however,
    the mass changes formation. A space opens up, the taxis
    and bicycles move in, and hundreds of commuters
    continue down the street, unperturbed and fatality
    free.

    The trouble is, those Chinese immigrate to Australia and
    try the same thing.

    Maybe that is why there are so many accidents...

    Completely missed the point. didn't you? Too many words
    for you to read and you didn't get past the first
    paragraph.

    Vossaka

    I did, the whole thing is a load of [censored].

    I have lived in 3 different Asian countries for a few
    years, so I know what they are like, AND I have seen bad
    accidents as well.

    As I said the story IS a LOAD of [censored].

    What the Chinese drive like here, is true.

    Have you lived with them?

  9. DRS said:


    "Charlie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees,
    that must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up
    fatalities every day in Brisbane...

    And according to the article that would be because...

    *throws more dripping sarcasm back at first post*

    Charlie

  10. "Charlie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees,
    that must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up
    fatalities every day in Brisbane...


    pile ups with fatalities (plural) every day? lets see - 365
    days/year. plural fatalities = at least two, so at least 730
    deaths/year in brisbane. in 2002 the official qld toll was
    322, so that means at least 408 people were brought back to
    life in road accidents in other areas of the state.

    Quoted message said:


    Charlie

  11. On Sat, 22 May 2004 05:36:59 +1000, DRS said (and I quote):

    Quoted message said:

    Why don't we do it in the road? A new school of traffic
    design says we should get rid of stop signs and red lights
    and let cars, bikes and people mingle together. It sounds
    insane, but it works.

    By Linda Baker salon.comsalon.com
    20/traffic_design/index.html

    I read this a couple of days ago, and was intrigued, so I
    did a bit of googling, and found

    lesstraffic.comlesstraffic.com

    which the Salon article appears to be based on.

    There's a lot of interesting reading there, with a slightly
    different emphasis to the Salon article. Try reading

    lesstraffic.comIntrigue.pdf as
    an

    introduction.
    --
    What was I thinking?

  12. "Justin Thyme" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    "Charlie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees,
    that must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up
    fatalities every day in Brisbane...


    pile ups with fatalities (plural) every day? lets see -
    365 days/year. plural fatalities = at least two, so at
    least 730 deaths/year in brisbane. in 2002 the official
    qld toll was 322, so that means at least 408 people were
    brought back to life in road accidents in other areas of
    the state.

    Quoted message said:


    Charlie

    Ambos are really good in QLD :-)

  13. although it may be easy to fault some/many of the arguements
    of this article. I still think the idea has merits..

    it should reduce road rage ...ie you can't blame the person
    in front of you for not stopping at the stop sign. coz they
    dont have to ...they didnt indicate to change lanes ..the
    f#$%kn bas344rd ..no lanes he/she cant be blamed

    How much time do you spend sitting stationary at traffic
    lights? ..don't you wish they would install drive overs or
    unders. I'd welcome anything to reduce my braking and
    waiting time at traffic lights.

    anyway sledge away

  14. "Justin Thyme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Charlie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    10 days in a city and not a single accident... crikees,
    that must be a record yeah? I see massive pile up
    fatalities every day in Brisbane...

    Quoted message said:

    pile ups with fatalities (plural) every day? lets see
    - 365 days/year. plural fatalities = at least two, so
    at least


    730

    Quoted message said:

    deaths/year in brisbane. in 2002 the official qld toll was
    322, so that means at least 408 people were brought back
    to life in road accidents in other areas of the state.

    Damn you guys must be slow.

    What Charlie meant (incase it wasnt obvious due to his
    sarcasm!) was that 10 days in a city that small is nothing.

    I was in Sydney months before I saw an accident.

    The article is stupid because it doesn't examine accident
    rate data...

  15. Snipp...

    Quoted message said:

    Damn you guys must be slow.

    What Charlie meant (incase it wasnt obvious due to his
    sarcasm!) was that


    10

    Quoted message said:

    days in a city that small is nothing.

    I was in Sydney months before I saw an accident.

    The article is stupid because it doesn't examine accident
    rate data...

    True, it doesn't examine accident rate data, and 10 days is
    hardly what I'd call a decent sample! Nevertheless, the
    article has merit in that it examines the processes which
    produce accidents (and safety). Accident rates are merely
    the output of the processes and limiting oneself to such a
    one-dimensional criterion of stupidity is way more stupid
    than the article...

    Frank

  16. "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Vossaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Itvrc.1423$L.1352@news-
    server.bigpond.net.au:

    Quoted message said:


    "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    > Why don't we do it in the road?

    > Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis and a dozen
    > bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass of
    > cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are turning
    > left in front of me. Cringing, I anticipate a
    > collision. Like a flock of migrating birds, however,
    > the mass changes formation. A space opens up, the
    > taxis and bicycles move in, and hundreds of commuters
    > continue down the street, unperturbed and fatality
    > free.
    >

    The trouble is, those Chinese immigrate to Australia
    and try the same thing.

    Maybe that is why there are so many accidents...

    Completely missed the point. didn't you? Too many words
    for you to read and you didn't get past the first
    paragraph.

    Vossaka

    I did, the whole thing is a load of [censored].

    I have lived in 3 different Asian countries for a few
    years, so I know what they are like, AND I have seen bad
    accidents as well.

    As I said the story IS a LOAD of [censored].

    What the Chinese drive like here, is true.

    Like I said, you totally missed the point. The article was
    not about the Chinese or how well or badly they drive. It
    was about a radical way to change the mindset of every one
    who uses the roads. Read it again. But you want to turn it
    into some sort of racist dig about how infereior Asians are
    when it comes to controlling a car.

    BTW, I have lived in Asian countries, I have ridden
    motorcycles and bicycles through the main cities and I felt
    a lot safer then I do in Melbourne.

    Quoted message said:


    Have you lived with them?

    Yes, and I like them a lot.

    Vossaka

  17. "Vossaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Vossaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Itvrc.1423$L.1352@news-
    server.bigpond.net.au:

    Quoted message said:


    "Ron the Barbarian" <Newsguy> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > "DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    > :"]news:[email hidden]:
    >
    > > Why don't we do it in the road?
    >
    > > Ignoring the red light, a couple of taxis and a
    > > dozen bicycles are headed straight for a huge mass
    > > of cyclists, cars, pedicabs and mopeds that are
    > > turning left in front of me. Cringing, I anticipate
    > > a collision. Like a flock of migrating birds,
    > > however, the mass changes formation. A space opens
    > > up, the taxis and bicycles move in, and hundreds of
    > > commuters continue down the street, unperturbed and
    > > fatality free.
    > >
    >
    > The trouble is, those Chinese immigrate to Australia
    > and try the same thing.
    >
    > Maybe that is why there are so many accidents...

    Completely missed the point. didn't you? Too many words
    for you to read and you didn't get past the first
    paragraph.

    Vossaka

    I did, the whole thing is a load of [censored].

    I have lived in 3 different Asian countries for a few
    years, so I know what they are like, AND I have seen bad
    accidents as well.

    As I said the story IS a LOAD of [censored].

    What the Chinese drive like here, is true.

    Like I said, you totally missed the point. The article was
    not about the Chinese or how well or badly they drive. It
    was about a radical way to change the mindset of every one
    who uses the roads. Read it again. But you want to turn it
    into some sort of racist dig about how infereior Asians
    are when it comes to controlling a car.

    BTW, I have lived in Asian countries, I have ridden
    motorcycles and bicycles through the main cities and I
    felt a lot safer then I do in Melbourne.

    Quoted message said:


    Have you lived with them?

    Yes, and I like them a lot.

    Vossaka

    Melbourne :-)

    Enjoy....

  18. they have much higher death rates in those countries it
    wouldn't work

  19. s said:

    How much time do you spend sitting stationary at traffic
    lights? ..don't you wish they would install drive overs or
    unders. I'd welcome anything to reduce my braking and
    waiting time at traffic lights.

    i believe the issue would be - cost

  20. "Vossaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    But you want to turn it into some sort of racist dig
    about how infereior Asians


    are

    Quoted message said:

    when it comes to controlling a car.

    Racist dig eh!

    You are a fine one to talk, Rex Hunt:

    at most - drink your fuggin' orange juice, eat the bread
    role and shut the

    Vossaka"

    Don't like us WHITE Australians...

    "I've just had my employer funded flu injection today..

    Vossaka"

    I know what I'd like to injected you with!!

    Quoted message said:


    BTW, I have lived in Asian countries, I have ridden
    motorcycles and


    bicycles

    Quoted message said:

    through the main cities and I felt a lot safer then I do
    in Melbourne.

    Quoted message said:


    Have you lived with them?

    Yes, and I like them a lot.

    Most third world people do.

    Quoted message said:


    Vossaka

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