turning right: advice please

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

audrey said:

Quoted message said:

Either would be more civilised than accidentally
knocking the offender's ankle with your trolley wheel.
Ouch! :-)

I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature. I
can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

:-) I can, actually. Albeit rather in rather a wobbly
:fashion, with
risk of busting my bike. ...One reason I'm going to build
a super-strong rear wheel (hence recent questions about
touring rims, etc).

You want a trailer. Pete will no doubt push his latest
acquisition, but even a nice trailer is around 1/4 of
the price!

cheers, clive

audrey said:

I suspect your legs have more gears in them than mine, tho

entirely likely, but if you've usually got 21 or so on the
bike that should redress the balance. There are quite a
few Normal People cycle round Dundee on so-so bikes and
manage okay.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

audrey said:

I shall prob be visiting later in the year for Family
Things. But the thought of all those Hills puts me off
bringing bike along.

There's no shortage of them, but the somewhat linear
nature of the town layout along the side of 2 hills means
you can usually zig and zag up more sensible inclines
rather than take on the Serious Stuff head on.
e.g, Hilltown bad, Victoria Road good, West Park Road bad,
Blackness Road good. My round-town hack bike has a 3
speed hub on it and it's okay for the job.

I can just about commute on my single speed sit up and beg
without a problem. Yes Dundee has hills as Pete says but
they aren't that bad or particularly long (or particularly
steep, one or the other).

Quoted message said:

If you want a pleasant hackette head out West to Errol
(possibly for dinner at the Smiddy), which is along the
side of the firth and aside from a short climb to Errol at
the end or into Invergowrie on the way back is pretty much
pancake terrain.

Errol is situated on the Carse of Gowrie which is a flat
(within 20m or so RMS) floodplain. Very easy to get to
without going up any hills from the city centre. However, If
you do want a challenge, there are some extremely nice rides
up through the hills. And you can visit nice places such as
Glamis castle.. (supposed to have a good cafe).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I shall be able to understand the locals (even though I
can't actually speak the local patois).

I've lived here since '89 and some parts of Lochee still
leave me pretty confused as to what's being said... I
think it's a bit like Chinese with the intonation thing,
with the word "Ehhh" alone capable of expressing many
different concepts when used just so... ;-)

Dundee has two dialects. One is Dundonian, the other is
Lochee. Until about 1900 Lochee was a separate town built
around the Camperdown Mill and populated by Irish
immigrants. The language is somewhat difficult to penetrate.
I have problems understanding my kids at times (we live on
the edge of Lochee). It's even harder understanding the
locals when the pubs have just kicked out.

..d

Clive George said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature. I
can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

:-) I can, actually. Albeit rather in rather a wobbly
:fashion,
with risk of busting my bike. ...One reason I'm going to
build a super-strong rear wheel (hence recent questions
about touring rims, etc).

You want a trailer. Pete will no doubt push his latest
acquisition, but even a nice trailer is around 1/4 of
the price!

A trailer would be indeed be useful for shopping, but I
don't really want one for where I am now. Maybe I should
think again, though!

~PB

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as audrey
<[email hidden]> breathed:

Quoted message said:

What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like
this on right turns?

Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is plenty of
room as you both turn and unless you're at competition level
the car will be accelerating much faster than you are, so
why not let them go in front and then follow behind?

Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also
know I'm a lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see
why I should delay other people unnecessarily.

--
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:46:20 +0100 someone who may be audrey
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from
overtaking you.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

"audrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists.

[...]

Quoted message said:

What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me
like this on right turns?

Have a more pert bottom? ;-)

Sorry!

--
Cheerful Pedalling John Mallard

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified
as audrey <[email hidden]> breathed:

Quoted message said:

What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me
like this on right turns?

Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is
plenty of room as you both turn and unless you're at
competition level the car will be accelerating much
faster than you are, so why not let them go in front and
then follow behind?

and behind the car behind? and behind the car behind that?

Quoted message said:

Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also
know I'm a lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see
why I should delay other people unnecessarily.

agreed. I am not intending to delay anyone unnecessarily.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

In article <[email hidden]>,

audrey said:

I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right
turn only' lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn
right. I'm positioned in the centre of the lane. Lights go
green, I move forward and wait for suitable gap in on-
coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can take a
while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off
at the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right.
Car zooms past me on the right.

Is this really a problem? If it's such a busy junction that
you have to wait, then it's hardly surprising if other road
users want to use the gap in parallel with you.

--
Nick Kew

Pyromancer said:

Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is
plenty of room as you both turn and unless you're at
competition level the car will be accelerating much
faster than you are, so why not let them go in front and
then follow behind?

You really don't need to be at competition level to
outaccelerate most cars up to about 15-20mph, you just need
to be in the right gear. I don't mean that you'd win if they
were actively racing, but many drivers pull away from the
lights in a fairly orderly and dignified fashion (read:
slow) and if I can use that opportunity to get a little
space between them and me so that they'll encounter me in a
less mentally taxing ordinary road setting instead of at a
junction, with potential hazards on all sides, I think
that's a good thing. Especially if they've already shown
they're the kind of driver who'll cut a corner to overtake
just because cyclists are by definition slower than them and
they can't cope with the idea of _not_ overtaking...

Plus it's more fun that way, of course.

Quoted message said:

Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also
know I'm a lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see
why I should delay other people unnecessarily.

I wish the motorists around here thought the same way.
Though admittedly there's not a lot they can do to stop
delaying faster traffic that doesn't involve leaving the
car at home.

-dan

--
"please make sure that the person is your friend before
you confirm"

audrey said:

I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists.
Situation is this:

I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right
turn only' lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn
right. I'm positioned in the centre of the lane. Lights go
green, I move forward and wait for suitable gap in on-
coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can take a
while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off
at the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right.
Car zooms past me on the right.

1. My Cycling Proficiency trainer told me 25 years ago that
you must give a repeat arm signal just before moving off,
i.e. when traffic lights go red/amber or when your exit
becomes clear (I'm assuming you don't want to sit there
with your arm stuck out *all* the time you're stopped).
The signal should deter cars from passing on the right -
but see (3).

2. Positioning on the road is the main thing. For a normal
right turn I would be sitting virtually on the white
line. However, on multi-lane roads where for some reason
you can't use the left hand lane - this includes
roundabouts - you should keep to the left of your lane
and expect traffic to pass on both sides.

3. Always do your "lifesaver" look before moving off - at
least you saw the car. There are a lot of people on the
roads who have never passed a driving test and/or are
terminally stupid. Expect the unexpected etc.

Pyromancer said:

Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is
plenty of room as you both turn and unless you're at
competition level the car will be accelerating much
faster than you are, so why not let them go in front and
then follow behind?

Room to overtake doesn't automatically equal plenty of
room. There needs to be a margin for safety, otherwise the
car could strike the bike (or vice versa) if either party
makes a misjudgment or needs to suddenly swerve for any
unexpected reason. Talk about statating the obvious! ...But
it seems I need to.

Quoted message said:

Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also
know I'm a lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see
why I should delay other people unnecessarily.

There are times when it's necessary to delay people for
safety reasons.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is
happening more and more as the acceleration performance of
average cars increases to ridiculous levels. The drivers
must be doing their brains in with all the G force!

ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to accelerate
than their 70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up (so maximum
speed is too) but weight is up by much more.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:41:46 +0100, [email hidden] (Nick Kew)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

audrey said:

I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right
turn only' lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn
right. I'm positioned in the centre of the lane. Lights
go green, I move forward and wait for suitable gap in on-
coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can take a
while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off
at the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right.
Car zooms past me on the right.

Is this really a problem? If it's such a busy junction that
you have to wait, then it's hardly surprising if other road
users want to use the gap in parallel with you.

but there isn't enough room for them to do so safely. The
road we are turning into is narrow (with a kerb on both
right and left), leaving very little margin for error.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

Zog The Undeniable said:

Quoted message said:

I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is
happening more and more as the acceleration
performance of average cars increases to ridiculous
levels. The drivers must be doing their brains in with
all the G force!

ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to
accelerate than their 70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up
(so maximum speed is too) but weight is up by much more.

Cost of high perfomance seems to have become more affordable
then. I think more people must drive quick cars now than was
the case in the 70s and 80s.

~PB

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:39:46 +0100, David Hansen
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from
overtaking you.

One with side-firing missiles?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Zog The Undeniable said:

ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to
accelerate than their 70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up
(so maximum speed is too) but weight is up by much more.

That's because the occupants don't cycle ;-)

John B

you know? said:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:39:46 +0100, David Hansen
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from
overtaking you.

One with side-firing missiles?

.... contemplates outfitting sonandheir with catapult for
soon-to-be-purchased trailer bike

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:58:27 +0100, audrey <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

.... contemplates outfitting sonandheir with catapult for
soon-to-be-purchased trailer bike

Quality idea :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Zog The Undeniable said:

1. My Cycling Proficiency trainer told me 25 years ago that
you must give a repeat arm signal just before moving
off, i.e. when traffic lights go red/amber or when your
exit becomes clear (I'm assuming you don't want to sit
there with your arm stuck out *all* the time you're
stopped). The signal should deter cars from passing on
the right - but see (3).

I don't see how that would help - it is bleedin obvious I am
going to turn right (once you are in the right turn lane you
can't go straight on due to traffic island), also the few
seconds delay while I signal before setting off will only
encourage overtaking.

Quoted message said:

2. Positioning on the road is the main thing. For a normal
right turn I would be sitting virtually on the white
line. However, on multi-lane roads where for some reason
you can't use the left hand lane - this includes
roundabouts - you should keep to the left of your lane
and expect traffic to pass on both sides.

For the reasons David and others gave, I'm thinking
being to the
middle/right is better in this situation. I'm trying to stop
the traffic passing me.

Quoted message said:

3. Always do your "lifesaver" look before moving off - at
least you saw the car. There are a lot of people on the
roads who have never passed a driving test and/or are
terminally stupid. Expect the unexpected etc.

I always do that while the lights are on red - have a good
look at the car behind me, hopefully making eye contact so
they realise I'm there, but if that fails I have a good
chance of recognising them in the baked bean aisle.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm