Laurel Highlands 70 mile run and relay

Doug Freese said:

I had a dual role this year being the first leg of the
relay and also doing the race solo. For once this year the
weather was perfect, 50's to low 70's under the canopy of
the trees.

Neat - bet you enjoyed that for a switch 🙂 🙂

Quoted message said:

I was 19th of 46 finishers in a time of 16:47.

Congratulations!

Quoted message said:

66 started which is close to a 30% drop
rate which in not uncommon for this race.

For curiosity, did they drop before the end or just not make
the 22-hr cutoff? It looked like many finishers were close
(within a couple hours) to the 22 hr mark.

Quoted message said:

Like any of these races they always seem like a good idea
at the starting line. See laurelultra.comlaurelultra.comOpen ↗ for
deatils.

This looked like a lower key race than many you do (except
FA) - and more (or at least a different kind of) fun, IMHO
😉 For curiosity, I noticed that close to 1/4 the runners
finished in nominal ties (not all at once, obviously, but
same time as at least one other). In this type race, I've
always interpreted that to mean that people may tend to run
together - or were there that many photo finish sprints? 😉
Just curious. I've noticed in many race reports that the
smaller ones just seem to have a different aura (closer
knit) about them.

Congratulations! Enjoy your recovery!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I had a dual role this year being the first leg of the
relay and also doing the race solo. For once this year the
weather was perfect, 50's to low 70's under the canopy of
the trees. The trail is marked by the state and has
permanent mile markers for every mile. When you feeling
good they seem to go by like a picket fence in a speeding
car. When you're not feeling so good they take forever.

I was going to do a 100 in July but I was tardy with
signing up and got closed out and stuffed this race in as
a last minute thought.

I think the cool weather allowed me to push a little more
than I should have plus the terrain was sneaky. Not a lot
of overall gain and loss once you got past the first 8
mile climb but sharp undulation combined with mud, rocks
and roots had a vacuum effect. I had lots of base (a 50k
and 50 mile race) to get through the distance but not
enough training runs on rougher terrain. A few 3 1/2 hour
runs on the rougher stuff was a little shy of the proper
training but I knew that ahead of time. I had a rough
spell in the 50's but pulled it back for last 15. I was
19th of 46 finishers in a time of 16:47. 66 started which
is close to a 30% drop rate which in not uncommon for this
race. The team ran 16:18 but they had me as the early
albatross. The aid station were few and stark and hawking
Gatorpiss. My relay cohorts and bride served as crew and I
only had to drink one bottle of that swill. I had premixed
a bunch of bottles of SUCCEED!Clip which really helped. No
problems with salt as one SUCCEED!cap an hour kept the
plumbing active.

Like any of these races they always seem like a good
idea at the starting line. See
laurelultra.comlaurelultra.comOpen ↗ for deatils.

I'll run an easy 4 tomorrow night.

-DougF

Great run Doug! I saw this race on the schedule and it looks
like a great challenging race on interesting terrain, and
may be a good stepping stone to a 100m. How much time did
you spend stopping to eat, rest, work on feet?, etc - or did
you pretty much grab the food + Clip, and keep running. When
I did 50m at finger lakes 50's, the course came through base
camp 3 times so some people stopped to eat BBQ chicken and
take short breaks. When I stopped I ate some solid food and
worked on my feet and the break time added up to over 30
mins total for the whole run. I'm wondering how much break
time a more experienced runner like you has at these events.
Also it sounds like its a fairly hard course (with mud rocks
roots and undulation (those steep ravines in the western
Appalachian plain?)) - can you please elaborate for someone
thinking of running this race.

- Tony

"> >66 started which is close to a 30% drop

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate which in not uncommon for this race.

For curiosity, did they drop before the end or just not
make the 22-hr cutoff?

I honestly don't know. I finished, sat for few minutes and
went back to my hotel to wash and get some eats. I was
running empty and did have the alerntess to ask the timne of
day, er, night.

Quoted message said:

This looked like a lower key race than many you do (except
FA) - and more (or at least a different kind of) fun, IMHO
😉 For curiosity, I noticed that close to 1/4 the runners
finished in nominal ties (not

all

Quoted message said:

at once, obviously, but same time as at least one other).
In this type race, I've always interpreted that to mean
that people may tend to run together - or were there that
many photo finish sprints? 😉

I assume you find someone that is running your pace and you
just run together for companionship. I did the same thing.
This guy came up on me and said he felt like [censored] and asked
I minded running together. We ran the last 13-15 together
and hardly said a word. We were both tired a simply having
someone close when you yelled "oh [censored]" as you tripped on
rock was comforting. I thin finding someone to run with in
the late stages is very typical. Sprints to the finish in a
ultra are very rare.

-DougF

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Great run Doug! I saw this race on the schedule and it
looks like a

great

Quoted message said:

challenging race on interesting terrain, and may be a good
stepping

stone to

Quoted message said:

a 100m.

If the stepping stone is do LH one year and a 100 the next,
good idea. If you mean to the 70 and the 100 in the same
year I be careful. Other say this 70 is close in effort to
the easier 100's. I could run Vermont in July but I have
years at this an know my recovery. I may in fact try this
next year assuming I still alive and running.

Quoted message said:

How much time did you spend stopping to eat, rest, work on
feet?, etc - or did you pretty much grab the food + Clip,
and keep running.

Minimal time. My crew would hand me one or two new bottles
of clip, I'd forage the table for coke or Mountain dew and
some food. Drink the fluid and take the food with me. Except
for the time I took off my shoes and socks to tape a hot
spot, I averaged maybe a minute or so.

When I

Quoted message said:

did 50m at finger lakes 50's, the course came through
base camp 3

times so

Quoted message said:

some people stopped to eat BBQ chicken and take short
breaks. When I stopped I ate some solid food and worked on
my feet and the break time

added

Quoted message said:

up to over 30 mins total for the whole run. I'm wondering
how much

break

Quoted message said:

time a more experienced runner like you has at these
events.

30 minutes of aid station is lot of time. I drink at the
table and take my food with me. You can always eat and walk
if not run and eat. Maybe minute per station.

Quoted message said:

Also it sounds like its a fairly hard course (with mud
rocks roots and undulation

(those

Quoted message said:

steep ravines in the western Appalachian plain?)) - can
you please

elaborate

Quoted message said:

for someone thinking of running this race.

It hard to describe No deep ravines as it tries to keep on
top of the Laurel ridge line. It follows the natural terrain
of the top except when moving from one range to another.

-Dougf

Doug Freese wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Great run Doug! I saw this race on the schedule and it
looks like a

great

Quoted message said:

challenging race on interesting terrain, and may be a
good stepping

stone to

Quoted message said:

a 100m.

If the stepping stone is do LH one year and a 100 the next,
good idea. If you mean to the 70 and the 100 in the same
year I be careful.

Actually my rough thinking is 50k this year, 50 miles next
year, then laurel highlands in 2006, and maybe 100m in 2007.
I know I was quite undertrained for my first 50 mile.

Other

Quoted message said:

say this 70 is close in effort to the easier 100's. I could
run Vermont in July but I have years at this an know my
recovery. I may in fact try this next year assuming I still
alive and running.

Quoted message said:

How much time did you spend stopping to eat, rest, work
on feet?, etc - or did you pretty much grab the food +
Clip, and keep running.

Minimal time. My crew would hand me one or two new bottles
of clip, I'd forage the table for coke or Mountain dew and
some food. Drink the fluid and take the food with me.
Except for the time I took off my shoes and socks to tape a
hot spot, I averaged maybe a minute or so.

When I

Quoted message said:

did 50m at finger lakes 50's, the course came through
base camp 3

times so

Quoted message said:

some people stopped to eat BBQ chicken and take short
breaks. When I stopped I ate some solid food and worked
on my feet and the break time

added

Quoted message said:

up to over 30 mins total for the whole run. I'm wondering
how much

break

Quoted message said:

time a more experienced runner like you has at these
events.

30 minutes of aid station is lot of time. I drink at the
table and take my food with me. You can always eat and walk
if not run and eat.

Yes, 30 mins is a long time, and I don't really know what
took so long. I recorded every stop with a lap time. Twice I
ate some solid food, restocked the cliff bars and gels i was
carrying, attended my feet and then put on fresh socks.
Considering that I had never run even a marathon before the
50m, and had some trouble with my feet before in ROGAINEs --
I wanted to try to eat as much as possible and to take good
care of my feet. I guess as one gets more experience with
these events it doesnt take as long.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

minute per station.

Quoted message said:

Also it sounds
like its a fairly hard course (with mud rocks roots and
undulation

(those

Quoted message said:

steep ravines in the western Appalachian plain?)) - can
you please

elaborate

Quoted message said:

for someone thinking of running this race.

It hard to describe No deep ravines as it tries to
keep on top of the Laurel ridge line. It follows the
natural terrain of the top except when moving from one
range to another.

-Dougf

Doug Freese said:

I assume you find someone that is running your pace and
you just run together for companionship. I did the same
thing. This guy came up on me and said he felt like [censored]
and asked I minded running together. We ran the last 13-15
together and hardly said a word. We were both tired a
simply having someone close when you yelled "oh [censored]" as
you tripped on rock was comforting. I thin finding someone
to run with in the late stages is very typical.

ok, thanks. That's what I assumed, right down to the
expletives!

Quoted message said:

Sprints to the finish in a ultra are very rare.

That's what I figured. I was just looking for an alternate
hypothesis 😉

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote in message

<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Actually my rough thinking is 50k this year, 50 miles next
year, then

laurel

Quoted message said:

highlands in 2006, and maybe 100m in 2007.

Food for thought if you don't mind training in the winter
for next year. Do Hinte-Anderson 50k in the spring
hatrun.comhatrun.comOpen ↗ recover and do a summer or fall 50.
The HAT run is an easy course compared to the Finger lakes
runs and usually a great spring day. many use this race for
their first. As for Laurel, unless you like to play mule and
haul all your own stuff on you back and/or drop bags, don't
do it without a crew. Some of the aid stations at 8-9 miles
apart and in trail pace that can be 2-3 hours. I carried a
two bottle belt and should have opted for larger bottles.
Even with a crew the access points to the trail are minimal.

Quoted message said:

I know I was quite undertrained for my first 50 mile.

I missed the specifics of how or what caused your less than
stellar first. Was in low mileage, insufficient
quality(trained flat, race was all hills), low carbs, low
salt, poor carbs, dehydration, too much hydration, bad
pacing, bad/wrong shoes...some or all?

Quoted message said:

Yes, 30 mins is a long time, and I don't really know
what took so

long. I

Quoted message said:

recorded every stop with a lap time. Twice I ate some
solid food,

restocked

Quoted message said:

the cliff bars and gels i was carrying, attended my feet
and then put

on

Quoted message said:

fresh socks.

Fresh socks each time? What are the problems with you feet?
In general, between Vaseline, carefully placed tape and good
socks I seldom have to touch my feet. I missed spot this
year and stopped to re-tape the bottom with three strips
rather than two.

-DougF

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote in message

<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Actually my rough thinking is 50k this year, 50 miles
next year, then

laurel

Quoted message said:

highlands in 2006, and maybe 100m in 2007.

Food for thought if you don't mind training in the winter
for next year. Do Hinte-Anderson 50k in the spring
hatrun.comhatrun.comOpen ↗ recover and do a summer or fall 50.
The HAT run is an easy course compared to the Finger lakes
runs and usually a great spring day. many use this race for
their first.

Thanks Doug I'll check it out. I'm think that my renewed
interest in running will carry through the winter.

Quoted message said:

As for Laurel, unless you like to play mule and haul all
your own stuff on you back and/or drop bags, don't do it
without a crew. Some of the aid stations at 8-9 miles apart
and in trail pace that can be 2-3 hours. I carried a two
bottle belt and should have opted for larger bottles. Even
with a crew the access points to the trail are minimal.

Quoted message said:

I know I was quite undertrained for my first 50 mile.

I missed the specifics of how or what caused your less than
stellar first. Was in low mileage, insufficient
quality(trained flat, race was all hills), low carbs, low
salt, poor carbs, dehydration, too much hydration, bad
pacing, bad/wrong shoes...some or all?

lol well... My less than stellar first 50m was caused by
very low running mileage - I did a trail run of 100 mins to
2 hours once a week for about 3 months before the 50 miler.
The cross training didn't help the legs for running much. I
think I handled the race fairly well in terms of hydration -
eating was a different matter. After 50k I couldn't get
anything down except liquids, and as a result I bonked very
hard at about 43 miles, and though I did run some more,
basically I was shot at that point. I was stupid to try to
go 50m and should have stopped after the 50k. (It was stupid
to even try 50k on that kind of training.) Actually I was
fairly happy with 6:28 through 50k that day. For the
training I had done I felt pretty good after that. It was
after that when things feel apart.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, 30 mins is a long time, and I don't really know what
took so

long. I

Quoted message said:

recorded every stop with a lap time. Twice I ate some
solid food,

restocked

Quoted message said:

the cliff bars and gels i was carrying, attended my feet
and then put

on

Quoted message said:

fresh socks.

Fresh socks each time? What are the problems with you feet?
In general, between Vaseline, carefully placed tape and
good socks I seldom have to touch my feet. I missed spot
this year and stopped to re-tape the bottom with three
strips rather than two.

My feet have always given me problems in extended events
like 24 hour ROGAINEs, or shorter ROGAINES 6 or 8 hours
where we ran most of the way. Vaseline around the toes works
for me. My feet weren't that used to running because of a
lack consistent running. Now that I realize I have to really
train specifically for these races, as opposed to the less
competative ROGAINE efforts, my feet are already getting
tougher from more consistent running and longer trail runs.
We keep learning hopefully.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

-DougF

Tony said:

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fresh socks each time? What are the problems with you
feet? In general, between Vaseline, carefully placed tape
and good socks I seldom have to touch my feet. I missed
spot this year and stopped to re-tape the bottom with
three strips rather than two.

My feet have always given me problems in extended events
like 24 hour ROGAINEs, or shorter ROGAINES 6 or 8 hours
where we ran most of the way. Vaseline around the toes
works for me.

Doug and Tony and others that might tape/vaseline feet,

Just curious, but do you vaseline lightly and re-apply as
needed - maybe every few hours. Or a heavy dose that lasts,
say, 6-12 hrs or more? For all long runs/races or just ones
likely to be rainy and/or muddy? Any problems with grit
being embedded, although I suspect this is a function of fine-
grained soils (clays, silts) and mesh opening of shoe?

The reason I'm asking is my feet seem to do fine when dry -
at least so far (but long run is still under 2 hrs). I used
vaseline on feet for the first time this spring when running
in wet field with shallow standing slush water (snow melt
that can't drain through frozen ground) - only about 45 min
(thought I used it a couple times but can only find the one
log entry). It worked fine, but it tends to soften my feet,
making them more vulnerable to problems unless I put enough
on. That said, it helped a tender toe recover after a long
run with a slushy ending that drew blood from that toe (tip
where sock must've bunched). I never had a problem again on
slush runs (used vaseline), but never had to deal with
continuously wet feet on a long run (over 1 hr). For non-
winter socks, I tend to use smartwool hiking or light hiking
or bridgedale.

And yes, I know I'll have to figure out what works for me,
but was just interested in your experiences. I'm considering
trying duct tape, but don't have the conditions enough to
have gotten that far with trials - and don't know where
abrasion points are likely to be yet - other than skin
completely deteriorating from being wet for many hours. I do
have John Vonhof's book (Fixing Your Feet, not the newest
edition) and subscribe to his e-zine, although behind on
reading both.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fresh socks each time? What are the problems with you
feet? In general, between Vaseline, carefully placed tape
and good socks I seldom have to touch my feet. I missed
spot this year and stopped to re-tape the bottom with
three strips rather than two.

My feet have always given me problems in extended events
like 24 hour ROGAINEs, or shorter ROGAINES 6 or 8 hours
where we ran most of the way. Vaseline around the toes
works for me.

Doug and Tony and others that might tape/vaseline feet,

Just curious, but do you vaseline lightly and re-apply as
needed - maybe every few hours. Or a heavy dose that lasts,
say, 6-12 hrs or more? For all long runs/races or just ones
likely to be rainy and/or muddy? Any problems with grit
being embedded, although I suspect this is a function of
fine-grained soils (clays, silts) and mesh opening of shoe?

Yes, grit from the dusty trail made me re-vaseline my feet
and change my socks a few times times. I was wearing thorlo
trail-running crews. Maybe there are better socks for
racing, though for training these seem fine. The vaseline
seems to last just a few hours for me, and mainly I use it
around the toes. Yes mesh openning on the shoes probably
lets in too much dust. I was wearing new balance 805's I
believe. I like new balance because they're one of the only
brands to have widths that fit me well, but maybe some other
kind of shoe is better. Also I know some use short gaiters,
and I may try this in the future.

Quoted message said:

The reason I'm asking is my feet seem to do fine when dry -
at least so far (but long run is still under 2 hrs). I used
vaseline on feet for the first time this spring when
running in wet field with shallow standing slush water
(snow melt that can't drain through frozen ground) - only
about 45 min (thought I used it a couple times but can only
find the one log entry). It worked fine, but it tends to
soften my feet, making them more vulnerable to problems
unless I put enough on. That said, it helped a tender toe
recover after a long run with a slushy ending that drew
blood from that toe (tip where sock must've bunched). I
never had a problem again on slush runs (used vaseline),
but never had to deal with continuously wet feet on a long
run (over 1 hr). For non-winter socks, I tend to use
smartwool hiking or light hiking or bridgedale.

And yes, I know I'll have to figure out what works for me,
but was just interested in your experiences. I'm
considering trying duct tape, but don't have the conditions
enough to have gotten that far with trials - and don't know
where abrasion points are likely to be yet - other than
skin completely deteriorating from being wet for many
hours. I do have John Vonhof's book (Fixing Your Feet, not
the newest edition) and subscribe to his e-zine, although
behind on reading both.

I've had horrible experiences with wet feet. Once in a 24
ROGAINE it rained and early on our feet were quite wet.
Since ROGAINE is largely cross-country, and the allegeney
terrain was very steep and rugged - our feet were toast. The
race started at noon Sat. By 3am we were starting to get
very bad trenchfoot, and by 6am we were hobbling 5 miles
back on the road to camp, quitting 6 hours early. The pain
is indescribable - every single nerve ending in your foot is
shooting and every step its agony. I think most people in
that race suffered from some level of foot problems,
including the winners - I remember seeing them hobble up to
get their awards. How to handle wet feet for 24 hours I
still have no idea. Wearing Gore tex socks may or may not
help (I have some to try next time) because your feet sweat
so much that it might not make much difference. Maybe gore-
tex with sock changes every 4 hours and tape above the gore-
tex socks? Without tape, water will run down your legs into
the socks. Same problem (with no solution) for waterproof
running shoes. Still no real idea on this...

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Tony said:

Dot wrote in message ...

I was wearing thorlo trail-running crews. Maybe there
are better socks for racing, though for training these
seem fine.

I use same socks for training and races. I think I do a
little better with SmartWool (lighter weight ones in summer
and heavier in winter), Bridgedale (I think I've got 2
weights of them also), and Ultimax (winter weight) than
with Thorlos. *For me*, the insides of the thorlos seem a
little rougher than the others, and hence more likely to
abrade when wet, but I should probably test them more.
They're definitely not as warm as my Smartwools or Ultimax
in the winter.

Quoted message said:

The vaseline seems to last just a few hours for me, and
mainly I use it around the toes.

Ok, thanks. That seems in line with my short tests.

Quoted message said:

Also I know some use short gaiters, and I may try this in
the future.

I think gaitors will help with stuff coming in over the top,
but may not help with stuff coming in the mesh. I've noticed
after mud runs (no where near the top of my shoe), that I've
got mud between sock liner and shoe proper, as well as in
socks, etc. I got a pair on sale at REI this spring, but
haven't tried them yet. Most running gaitors only barely
meet the top of the shoe and maybe a little over the laces,
whereas a ski gaitor goes almost to tip of toe. I've
considered modifying a pair of neoprene socks (or maybe the
stormcloth ones) into a shoe cover for winter running.

Quoted message said:

I've had horrible experiences with wet feet. Once in a 24
ROGAINE it rained and early on our feet were quite wet.
Since ROGAINE is largely cross-country, and the allegeney
terrain was very steep and rugged - our feet were toast.

I can imagine. I've had bad experiences with field work
where we're in the rain all day, and get to repeat it all
each day for the next several days. On some of those trips I
don't think my feet dried out between days. Although I don't
think we ever reached the point of shooting pain from nerves
like you describe.

Quoted message said:

How to handle wet feet for 24 hours I still have no idea.

Yea, I think that's a major issue. That comes up on the
ultra list periodically since I think it's Hardrock where
people are running with almost continuously wet feet.

Quoted message said:

Wearing Gore tex socks may or may not help (I have some to
try next time) because your feet sweat so much that it
might not make much difference.

I had some REI gore-tex socks that I returned unused. My
foot has a high instep so the non-stretchiness of the gore-
tex binds in some places and bunches in others.

I've got a collection of SealSkinz (not the river crossing
kind that have a sealed top), neoprene, and stormcloth socks
that I'm going to try eventually. I had these from trying to
find something to keep feet warm (at least non-frostbitten)
on bike during a winter tri at +1F. They didn't work for
that (outer neoprene booties worked great and what I use for
snowshoe running at -20F), so I'll try them for wet days.
SealSkinz are the most likely candidate from the bunch since
they fit reasonably well.

I asked one of the guys that ran the Susitna 100 in 2003
(the year the rivers didn't freeze and the race was
relocated to safe ground) what he did for shoes/socks in the
soggy snow. He used Asics 2080s with Smartwools. In the past
he's used neoprene socks - at least once where he got bad
blisters as a result. The equipment list for the Su100
suggests having some neoprene socks.

Quoted message said:

Maybe gore-tex with sock changes every 4 hours and tape
above the gore-tex socks? Without tape, water will run down
your legs into the socks. Same problem (with no solution)
for waterproof running shoes.

all good ideas.

Still no real idea on

Quoted message said:

this...

and it's not the kind of thing that you can test unless
you've get a wet run.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know I was quite undertrained for my first 50 mile.

I missed the specifics of how or what caused your less
than stellar first. Was in low mileage, insufficient
quality(trained flat, race

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all hills), low carbs, low salt, poor carbs,
dehydration, too much hydration, bad pacing, bad/wrong
shoes...some or all?

lol well... My less than stellar first 50m was caused by
very low

running

Quoted message said:

mileage - I did a trail run of 100 mins to 2 hours once a
week for

about 3

Quoted message said:

months before the 50 miler.

I think we covered this before but two hours each weekend is
much too little. I would bump the every other weekend up to
5 hours and maybe two of these.

Quoted message said:

The cross training didn't help the legs for running much.

'Tis true but it's still good cross training

Quoted message said:

I think I handled the race fairly well in terms of
hydration - eating was a different matter. After 50k I
couldn't get anything down except liquids, and as a result
I bonked very hard at

about 43

Quoted message said:

miles, and though I did run some more, basically I was
shot at that

point.

Food is always an issue for most runners. The usual adage to
practice in training only provides a little information. If
your body absolutely dislikes some food or drink you will
get some fast feedback Since training runs are less than the
real deal you only know about those ingredients for that
length of time. I can tell you that some food is just fine
for a few hours and then it gets repulsive. For instance
PB&J. You may like PB&J but how many before you stomach
tells you one more and reverse peristalsis will take hold?
😉 I'm suggesting that variety of food if possible is the
way to go. Personally I have found that SUCCEED!Clip (liquid
food) works for me. I try to supplement from the tables with
whole food but I know I'm getting good calories to include
fat and protein from my drink.

By the way, during your taper mode try to stay away from
whatever food you determine works for you. This slight
deprivation will help keep those foods exciting for a longer
time race day(s).

Quoted message said:

I was stupid to try to go 50m and should have stopped
after the 50k.

(It

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was stupid to even try 50k on that kind of training.)

No comment.,,,,,but you on to something 🙂

Quoted message said:

Actually I was fairly happy with 6:28 through 50k that
day. For the training I had done I

felt

Quoted message said:

pretty good after that. It was after that when things
feel apart.

The two hour runs were bare bones. For a 50k I like 3-4
hours and gets me in from 4:20 to 5:30 depending on
difficulty of the race.

Quoted message said:

My feet have always given me problems in extended events
like 24 hour ROGAINEs, or shorter ROGAINES 6 or 8 hours
where we ran most of the

way.

If you get hot spots say near the ball or arch, a series of
strips of tape work wonders. I used two strips of J&J tape
under the ball and joined at the top but should have used
three since this race had lots of mud and muck. I stopped
changed socks, retaped with three and was fine the rest of
the way. Once you pull off you socks you may as well put on
some clean ones. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Vaseline around the toes works for me.

Me too. Some people use tape there also but I have found
goop works nicely on my toes. Vaseline also works in many
other areas which I won't detail other than from my waist
down I'd be slippery if someone grabbed
me.

What's good is your on the right track. If any other
questions you can try Email so we don't want to bore 5k the
red-liners. 🙂

-DougF

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

. . .
. . . I'm considering trying duct tape, but . . .
. . .

Hi, I just happened to remember that the only story I ever
heard about duct tape and skin was not a happy one. My ex
boss had an off-road racing truck, and got blisters on his
rear end if he didn't tape his cheeks together. (Weird, I
know.) At the Mint 500 in Nevada around 1985 they forgot the
adhesive tape, and used duct tape instead. Different glue!!!
Many hours later, when the tape came off, so did a lot of
skin. (ouch!) Maybe experiment in a small noncritical if you
are thinking of duct tape on skin.

Good luck!

--
Daniel
[email hidden]

Daniel wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:02:39 GMT, Dot

dot.h@#att.net said:

. . .
. . . I'm considering trying duct tape, but . . .
. . .

Hi, I just happened to remember that the only story I ever
heard about duct tape and skin was not a happy one. My ex
boss had an off-road racing truck, and got blisters on his
rear end if he didn't tape his cheeks together. (Weird, I
know.) At the Mint 500 in Nevada around 1985 they forgot
the adhesive tape, and used duct tape instead. Different
glue!!! Many hours later, when the tape came off, so did a
lot of skin. (ouch!) Maybe experiment in a small
noncritical if you are thinking of duct tape on skin.

LoL, well maybe gaffers tape?

Quoted message said:

Good luck!

--
Daniel [email hidden]

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony wrote: Doug and Tony and others that might
tape/vaseline feet,

Just curious, but do you vaseline lightly and re-apply as
needed -

maybe

Quoted message said:

every few hours. Or a heavy dose that lasts, say, 6-12 hrs
or more?

For

Quoted message said:

all long runs/races or just ones likely to be rainy and/or
muddy? Any problems with grit being embedded, although I
suspect this is a

function

Quoted message said:

of fine-grained soils (clays, silts) and mesh opening
of shoe?

I can get by with one liberal shot of Vaseline. For me, and
maybe a product of my socks, I didn't get crud through my
socks and into the Vaseline. I do get crud in my shoe which
I will stop and remove. In essence the sock serves as a
filter. I can see if one is wearing low not snug(elastic is
less than ideal) socks and things making their way in. For
most of my races I can by with low Wigwams but for this race
I opted for a high sock knowing the trail was more rugged
and full of "stuff."

-DougF

"Daniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:02:39 GMT, Dot

dot.h@#att.net said:

. . .
. . . I'm considering trying duct tape, but . . .
. . .

Hi, I just happened to remember that the only story I ever
heard about

duct

Quoted message said:

tape and skin was not a happy one. My ex boss had an off-
road racing truck, and got blisters on his rear end if he
didn't tape his cheeks together. (Weird, I know.) At the
Mint 500 in Nevada around 1985 they forgot the adhesive
tape, and used duct tape instead. Different

glue!!!

Quoted message said:

Many hours later, when the tape came off, so did a lot
of skin.

(ouch!)

Quoted message said:

Maybe experiment in a small noncritical if you are
thinking of duct

tape

Quoted message said:

on skin.

Duck tape is very popular because it sticks, stays well and
wards off some real evil blisters. If the choice is some
discomfort AFTER the race I'd go with the duct tape in a
heartbeat. Running with blistered, bloody feet for hours and
hours is not fun. I prefer Johnson&Johnson tape but I know
it does not do well in stream crossings. If I know ahead of
time the course is wet I go for the duct tape.

DougF

Doug Freese said:

I can get by with one liberal shot of Vaseline. For me,
and maybe a product of my socks, I didn't get crud through
my socks and into the Vaseline. I do get crud in my shoe
which I will stop and remove. In essence the sock serves
as a filter.

ok, thanks. I think that's why I've been favoring the
tighter weave socks. I only use crew height (with some a
little taller).

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope