derailures and shifting

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by badgers


I can buy a computer for 168 bucks at wal-mart.com
but a technology that is 30 years old costs more for the high end?

Well, campy stuff is made in italy where people don't work for fish heads and a bowl of rice. labor isn't cheap in Japan anymore, and the dollar is in the toilet.

I can think of a few of the obvious reasons, I'm probably missing a bunch more...

1. The $168 computer is a set of commoditized bits and pieces, super low margin. Only one other competitor in the medium/high end groupo market exists, but due to (a) brand loyalty (campy vs. shimano), and (b) the fact that most bike manufacturers just use shimano for an abundance of reasons, there really isn't much competion.

2. Shimano can and will charge whatever the heck they think the majority of the groupo-/bike-purchasing market will spend. Regarless of what it costs to produce.

3. Shimano spends LOTS of $$$$$ on sponsorships, marketing, etc... the $168 computer is 'generic' in that sense.

4. To keep the components buying public coming back for more, there is ALWAYS an "next new thing." Perhaps better than the previous product, perhaps not (i.e. flightdeck-compatible shifters...valuable or not we pay for their design). That means design resources, re-tooling the manufacturing lines, managing a more complex supply chain, etc.

5. In Shimano's defense: take an Ultegra (or any other) STI shifter apart (read a few posts down on the STI headache post) -- lots of light-weight, strong parts n pieces manufactured to pretty close tolerances.

so is weight the big thing when going between the lines?

I am not trying to be sarcastic. The shimano monopoly sure explains a lot.
I only used the computer example, because that super cheap computer would have been $10,000 12 years ago. It would have been considered a mini computer.

thanks for your time and have a good day

There's also "smoothness" of shifting. top of the line derailleurs shift smoother and better than bottom. However, the difference between the top of the line and second best is not that big and is probably more related to weight at that point.

A derailleur is like any other piece of metal machinery. The more precision-machined it is, the more expensive it will be.

Having said that, I do think Shimano is very proud of their components (and price them accordingly). But I can't describe the difference between Shimano 105 and Ultegra over tens of thousands of shifts and thousands of miles. Someday maybe I can afford Dura Ace! :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by zperrys
A derailleur is like any other piece of metal machinery. The more precision-machined it is, the more expensive it will be.

Having said that, I do think Shimano is very proud of their components (and price them accordingly). But I can't describe the difference between Shimano 105 and Ultegra over tens of thousands of shifts and thousands of miles. Someday maybe I can afford Dura Ace! :-)

ya just try making your own bike components im sure you cant do it cheaper than shimano and campy, even if youre a machinist

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by badgers
what makes one better then the other? It seems like a simple piece of metal with a wire and a CAM.
the rear seems a little more involved but still not much.

I can buy a computer for 168 bucks at wal-mart.com
but a technology that is 30 years old costs more for the high end?


I would like to know what I am missing.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

I think derailleurs are about as cheap as they can get based on their manufacturing costs. There isn't room for constant and major improvement in derailleurs as there is in computers, so they don't change much over time. Sure they make a few pieces out of titanium or carbon fiber, but the basic function and structure remain pretty much the same.

Think about it. What could you do to a derailleur to improve it? Add stepper motors to replace mechanical cables with wires? Throw in a computer to monitor cadence and work output so it can automatically shift gears for the rider?

A human being has to provide power to move a bike. That will always mean that the mechanism must be efficient and light weight. The most efficient drive system is the chain and derailleur and until someone comes up with something better (very difficult to do- people have been trying unsucessfully for decades) it will remain the system of choice.

The difference between higher-end derailleurs and consumer grade stuff? Mainly materials and finish.

You want lower cost high-end derialleurs? Buy them used and hope the previous owners treated them well.

TD

the computer market is in the 100s of millions which pushes mfg. cost. compare that with the high end bike market and you'll get the picture.

so is the high end bike market under niche economic laws?
not enough volume to afford precison high volume manufacuting robots?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by badgers
so is the high end bike market under niche economic laws?
not enough volume to afford precison high volume manufacuting robots?

In the IT industry, robots are used for the manufacture of PCBs for example. This manufacturing method is both economical and faster and is essential to the high volumes involved. On the other hand, high-end bike parts manufacture is more labor intensive. For example there is very little or no welding involved and that assembly, polishing and finishing requires skilled labor. And I wouldn't say there is no precision in manufacturing.