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RED and WHITE

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
5 July 2004
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5 July 2004
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Gleshna
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  1. Someone help me out here, please. Has some sports literature
    suddenly switched gears from talking about muscle fiber in
    terms of speed? For decades I have read and discussed slow
    and fast twitch fiber. Occasionally, some apparently weak
    author tries to spice up the article with dark or white
    meat. Until last week I have not seen redness used to
    discuss muscle fiber? Is this the new "in" thing in sports
    literature or just one person's jargon here?

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

  2. It's neither a new thing or Larry's vanacular. From my
    experience, Red/White, Fast/Slow are interchangeable.
    Literature generally refers to them by their type, (I,
    IIa and IIb).

    "Gleshna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040625010841.23168.00000657@mb-
    m07.aol.com...

    Quoted message said:

    Someone help me out here, please. Has some sports
    literature suddenly


    switched

    Quoted message said:

    gears from talking about muscle fiber in terms of speed?
    For decades I


    have

    Quoted message said:

    read and discussed slow and fast twitch fiber.
    Occasionally, some


    apparently

    Quoted message said:

    weak author tries to spice up the article with dark or
    white meat. Until


    last

    Quoted message said:

    week I have not seen redness used to discuss muscle fiber?
    Is this the


    new

    Quoted message said:

    "in" thing in sports literature or just one person's
    jargon here?

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

  3. I just did a PubMed search on the phrase "red muscle" and
    got 600 hits from the peer-reviewed scientific literature. I
    did a similar search on "white muscle" and got 1054 hits.
    These are scientific terms, and not simply colloquial terms.

    For example, here is a very relevant, very recent article:

    1: Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2004 Jan;137(1):151-
    60.

    Red muscle recruitment during steady swimming correlates
    with rostral-caudal patterns of power production in trout.

    Coughlin DJ, Spiecker A, Schiavi JM.

    Department of Biology, Widener University, One University
    Place, Chester, PA 19013, USA.
    [email hidden]

    Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) and brook trout (or
    charr, Salvelinus fontinalis) display different rostral-
    caudal patterns of power production by the red or aerobic
    muscle during steady swimming. The anterior muscle of
    rainbow trout produces much less power for swimming than the
    posterior, while in brook trout there is no variation in
    power output. To determine if red muscle recruitment is
    associated with anterior-posterior patterns of power
    production, electromyography (EMG) was used to record red
    muscle activity at three body positions across a range of
    swimming speeds in fish of each species. The initial
    recruitment of the anterior red muscle in swimming rainbow
    trout was predicted to lag behind, i.e. occur at higher
    speeds, that of the posterior due to the variation in power
    production, but no variation in recruitment was expected for
    brook trout. Burst of red muscle EMG activity occurring with
    each tailbeat was analyzed for frequency (tailbeat
    frequency), duty cycle (DC) (duration of burst relative to
    the period of the tailbeat) and burst intensity (BI)
    (magnitude of the measured EMG activity). Brook trout swam
    with higher tailbeat frequencies and longer values of DC
    than rainbow trout. Both species showed a pattern of
    longitudinal variation in DC, with longer DC values in the
    anterior red muscle. BI also differed significantly along
    the length of rainbow trout but not brook trout. In the
    former, BI of anterior muscle was significantly less than
    the posterior at lower steady swimming speeds. The EMG data
    suggest that power production and muscle recruitment are
    related. In rainbow trout, where there is longitudinal
    variation in muscle power output, there are also significant
    rostral-caudal differences in red muscle recruitment.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Fast twitch/slow twitch is useful terminology if you just
    want to talk generally about power versus endurance.

    But I've found that just about everyone can immediately
    grasp the difference between turkey wings/breast and duck
    wings/breast. This helps a lot in explaining the things I'm
    trying to explain here. Namely that humans are more like
    turkeys than like ducks. Ducks use their wings for
    propulsion. So they are red. What does it mean to be red? It
    means to have myoglobin (carries oxygen from blood to
    mitochondria), to have mitochondria (which are red
    themselves because of cytochromes and which metabolize both
    lactate and fat, which white muscle fibers can't do), and
    capillaries (which carry blood).

    So this, among other things, shows why swimmers must spend
    so much time (at least at some point in their lives) doing
    such "insanely" long distance training. They have to convert
    white fibers to red fibers, which is probably quite
    difficult to do (as opposed to simply training the pre-
    existing red fibers present in greater abundance in the
    lower body).

    I could say that turkeys have more fast twitch fibers and
    ducks have more slow twitch fibers, but this doesn't elicit
    the same "eureka" type of recognition in people to whom I'm
    trying to explain it to as speaking in terms of red and
    white fibers )as opposed to Type 1 and Type 2 fibers or slow
    twitch and fast twitch fibers).

    It's simply a way to make the explanations more immediately
    intuitive.

  4. "Gleshna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Someone help me out here, please. Has some sports
    literature suddenly


    switched

    Quoted message said:

    gears from talking about muscle fiber in terms of speed?
    For decades I


    have

    Quoted message said:

    read and discussed slow and fast twitch fiber.
    Occasionally, some


    apparently

    Quoted message said:

    weak author tries to spice up the article with dark or
    white meat. Until


    last

    Quoted message said:

    week I have not seen redness used to discuss muscle fiber?
    Is this the


    new

    Quoted message said:

    "in" thing in sports literature or just one person's
    jargon here?

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"


    No it's not just one person's jargon. Try spending a little
    more time reading and a little less being so...disagreeable.

  5. On 25 Jun 2004 05:08:41 GMT, [email hidden]

    (Gleshna) said:

    Someone help me out here, please. Has some sports
    literature suddenly switched gears from talking about
    muscle fiber in terms of speed?

    I found this article stating that "red" may be fast or slow
    twitch, but "white" is always fast twitch:

    nfpt.commuscl1.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Muscle Fiber Types There are three types of skeletal muscle
    tissue fibers. They are the white fast twitch fibers, the
    red fast twitch fibers, and the red slow twitch fibers.
    These different fibers have differing cardiovascular
    "support systems". Microscopic capillaries extend throughout
    intramuscular areas surrounding all of these muscle tissue
    fibers. The white fast twitch muscle fibers have very few
    capillaries, and in the absence of this nutrient rich blood
    supply, they cannot function for very long periods, but are
    extremely strong. The red fast twitch muscle fibers have a
    greater number of capillaries, and can therefore outlast the
    white fast twitch fibers, but are not nearly as strong. And
    lastly, the red slow twitch muscle fibers have a tremendous
    number of capillaries allowing for long-term sustained
    activity, however, with very little strength.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    NFPT is hardly the NEJM, but if the above statements are
    accurate then Larry's red vs white meat is a subtly
    different issue than fast vs slow twitch, although they are
    definitely intertwined.

    Also, many references say that proportion of fast vs slow
    muscles is largely genetically-determined, while Larry
    says that red vs white is essentially determined by
    childhood exercise.

    Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
    to reply by e-mail)

  6. My MEDLINE Search results:

    "fast twitch muscle" - 4373 hits

    "red muscle" - 7075 hits

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

  7. Larry-- I expected you to respond to my Olympic Trials
    thread! I haven't posted much to this group the past
    couple of years, but have been a reader of it for almost
    ten years, and respect your opinion on swimming
    authority!..............anyway, if you have a few
    minutes respond, if not take care, and enjoy the trials
    and games....

    -brian

  8. Thank you. Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

  9. Quoted message said:

    "Williamsdrew"

    Quoted message said:

    Try spending a little more time reading and a little less
    being so...disagreeable.

    You, too. It is not "Better."

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

  10. From Donal:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also, many references say that proportion of fast


    vs slow muscles is largely genetically-determined, while
    Larry says that red vs white is essentially determined by
    childhood exercise.<<

    No, I agree that fast/slow (white/red, Type 2/Type 1) is
    largely genetically determined. But I'm saying that it's
    possible to convert white to red through truly prodigious
    training (e.g. at the level of a good, year-around,
    competitive club swimmer, through childhood).

    My kids were pretty typical for club swimmers here in
    Southern California. When they were 6-7 years old, they did
    2 hour workouts, twice a week. When they were 8, it went up
    to 3 times per week. The 4 times per week at age 9 and 5
    times per week at age 10. Then 6 times per week at ages 11
    and 12 (that's 12 hours a week of nearly continuous, and
    typically hard swimming; their teams didn't do dry land).
    Then 7 times a week at age 13 (adding a morning). Then 8
    times at age 14. Then 9-10 times (and for brief periods 11
    times) a week at age 15 and up. With some of those workouts
    being 2 1/2 hours or even 3 hours. And at some "distance"
    oriented teams here (e.g. Industry Hills, Mission Viejo,
    North Coast Aquatics) it is substantially greater than that.
    At North Coast on Thanksgiving Weekend, the Saturday workout
    consisted of 30 X 500 yards (I know that because two of my
    daughter's college team mates swim there on vacations). This
    is not simple childhood exercise, which I don't think does
    much to convert muscle fibers. It is, rather, prodigious
    exercise, unique almost to the sport of swimming, and it
    takes place at a time when I think there is still a degree
    of plasticity regarding muscle fiber types.

    - Larry W

  11. On 26 Jun 2004 18:57:36 GMT, [email hidden]

    (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    No, I agree that fast/slow (white/red, Type 2/Type
    1) is largely genetically determined.

    I didn't mean that 'childhood exercise' was trivial, just
    that it occurred during childhood.

    But my main interest is whether you agree that red and white
    are not just synonyms for slow and fast.

    Is all this prodigious childhood exercise turning white fast
    twitch fibers into red fast twitch fibers, or doing
    something else?

    Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
    to reply by e-mail)

  12. Quoted message said:

    (Larry Weisenthal

    Quoted message said:

    But I'm saying that it's possible to convert white to red
    through truly prodigious training

    Assuming that this means fast twitch to slow twitch, there
    is already research that supports this. Several studies
    have shown that slow jogging kills vertical jumping
    ability, for example.

    On the other hand, as a gymnastics coach, I saw some boys
    come through that just could never get strong, power, no
    matter how much they worked. This was a small number. Often
    these were boys with exceptionally good flexibility.

    Gleshna

    Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

    "F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

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