Re: "Actually you are the first person to bring up this issue"

(Gary Young) said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Gary Young) wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But your attitude seems to be, we could lift a finger, but we
don't want to spend the money. Better that our customers should pay
the price for our stupidity. Isn't that what you're saying? -- we
could fix the problem, but we won't. The only costs will be born by
someone else. We don't mind killing off a few customers as long as it
doesn't hurt our bottom line.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I'm quite surprised to see you pursue this line. All I can say is that
if this is your idea of customer service, then I'll never buy one of
your frames.

Your (il)logical conclusions and inability to understand my position
are astonishing. You really "don't get it", do you?

Well, I should have been more temporate, for civility's sake.
Nonetheless, I think your position is contrary to the law and morally
obtuse. I find it troubling that you haven't responded to a question
I've posed a couple of times: does the industry have a duty to warn
its customers about this problem?

My "position" is that the manufacturers and CPSC probably don't think
there IS a problem, and I'd like to see that remedied by collecting
some data that might influence them (assuming of course that it shows
there IS a problem).

And FWIW, I don't have a "position" on how the rest of the industry
handles potential liability. I have observations, which I shared and
you subsequently ascribed to springing from my own moral code.

Does the industry have a duty to warn customers NOW? I don't know...
it all depends on how compelling the data they have is. I have no
problem at all believing the data they have right now doesn't compel
them to do an expensive recall / or to scare existing customers. I
say that because (as I've said about a hundred times now...) they've
all heard about skewers spontaneously unscrewing themselves, and a few
reports of this happening to customers with disc brakes won't stand
out as anything particularly unusual, barring more data.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Does the industry have a duty to warn customers NOW? I don't
know... it all depends on how compelling the data they have is. I
have no problem at all believing the data they have right now
doesn't compel them to do an expensive recall / or to scare existing
customers.

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what you're
suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the manufacturers,
I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated with "massive
product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and they don't see
that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but that's between
themselves, their lawyers and their liability insurance carriers. In
the meantime, the users of these products are the ones assuming the
risk.

Tim McNamara said:

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what you're
suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the manufacturers,
I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated with "massive
product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and they don't see
that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but that's between
themselves, their lawyers and their liability insurance carriers. In
the meantime, the users of these products are the ones assuming the
risk.

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I asked earlier
"Compelling" would seem to require at least having one person from the many
tens of thousand mountain bikers out there using discs reporting to a
manufacturer that they have experienced a problem of this nature with their
product. So far it looks as if no-one has done that in which case it would
not be unreasonable for them to assume that whatever the theory, across a
large population sample it is not happening in practice.

Have a look at the number of bicycle related CPSC actions and recalls
(http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/prod.asp, choose Bicycles and
Accessories and click Find)and ask why on earth would they ignore this
particular problem when handlebars, forks, stems, helmets, whole bicycles,
disc brake rotors etc are being recalled all the time, sometimes at quite
considerable financial cost to the manufacturer. Either it is a massively
complex and coordinated conspiracy involving multiple companies across the
globe and the US government or there is a simpler answer.

Tony

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Gary Young) said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Gary Young) wrote:

<snip>
>But your attitude seems to be, we could lift a finger, but we
>don't want to spend the money. Better that our customers should pay
>the price for our stupidity. Isn't that what you're saying? -- we
>could fix the problem, but we won't. The only costs will be born by
>someone else. We don't mind killing off a few customers as long as it
>doesn't hurt our bottom line.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I'm quite surprised to see you pursue this line. All I can say is that
>if this is your idea of customer service, then I'll never buy one of
>your frames.

Your (il)logical conclusions and inability to understand my position
are astonishing. You really "don't get it", do you?

Well, I should have been more temporate, for civility's sake.
Nonetheless, I think your position is contrary to the law and morally
obtuse. I find it troubling that you haven't responded to a question
I've posed a couple of times: does the industry have a duty to warn
its customers about this problem?

My "position" is that the manufacturers and CPSC probably don't think
there IS a problem, and I'd like to see that remedied by collecting
some data that might influence them (assuming of course that it shows
there IS a problem).

And FWIW, I don't have a "position" on how the rest of the industry
handles potential liability. I have observations, which I shared and
you subsequently ascribed to springing from my own moral code.

Does the industry have a duty to warn customers NOW? I don't know...
it all depends on how compelling the data they have is. I have no
problem at all believing the data they have right now doesn't compel
them to do an expensive recall / or to scare existing customers. I
say that because (as I've said about a hundred times now...) they've
all heard about skewers spontaneously unscrewing themselves, and a few
reports of this happening to customers with disc brakes won't stand
out as anything particularly unusual, barring more data.

I have seen this kind of "filtering effect" at work in other contexts.
For instance, years ago I was prescribed a medication that had a
rather disagreeable side effect for me. I went to my doctor, he
consulted his physicians desk reference, told me, "No one has reported
that side effect," and suggested, ever so gently, that it was all in
my head. Much later I read an article about the medication that
mentioned that side effect.

I don't think the doctor was at fault, or even the manufacturer of the
medication. I suspect that when the manufacturer did its initial run
of tests, it drew up a list of side effects that were prevalent to
show up in their trials. Unfortunately, afterwards such a list can
function as a filter excluding other valid reports of side effects.

But even in that case, my doctor did something about the situation --
switching me to another medication.

Furthermore, I don't think such a filtering effect is at work here.
Let's look at the lawyer from Trek as an example. I find it hard to
believe that a lawyer contacted by the trade press about this problem
would simply write it off as the usual operator error, particularly
after he's informed that it's confined to disc-brake forks. If he went
to one of the engineers at Trek, he would have been told that this is
a different sort of claim and that it merits further study. If he's a
competent attorney, he would know that it's Trek's duty to look into
it or at the very least, pressure the fork suppliers to look into it.

I suppose it's possible that industry lawyers are stone cold stupid,
but I'm not sure that matters. The tort system punishes stupidity as
well as venality.

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

Furthermore, given the evidence that's already been brought to light,
I don't think the studies you propose would do any good. I'm not
suggesting such studies would necessarily have no scientific validity,
but I suspect that if an industry lawyer doesn't think that the
opinion of a respected engineer like Jobst is reason enough to be
worried, he's not going to change his mind because a bunch of guys on
usenet conducted experiments in their garages. Such a study would have
so little credibility (from a lawyer's perspective) that it would not
be a prod to action.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what

you're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the

manufacturers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated with

"massive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and they

don't see

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but that's

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

themselves, their lawyers and their liability insurance

carriers. In

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the meantime, the users of these products are the ones

assuming the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

risk.

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I

asked earlier

Quoted message said:

"Compelling" would seem to require at least having one person

from the many

Quoted message said:

tens of thousand mountain bikers out there using discs

reporting to a

Quoted message said:

manufacturer that they have experienced a problem of this

nature with their

Quoted message said:

product. So far it looks as if no-one has done that in which

case it would

Quoted message said:

not be unreasonable for them to assume that whatever the

theory, across a

Quoted message said:

large population sample it is not happening in practice.

Have a look at the number of bicycle related CPSC actions and

recalls

Quoted message said:

(http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/prod.asp, choose Bicycles

and

Quoted message said:

Accessories and click Find)and ask why on earth would they

ignore this

Quoted message said:

particular problem when handlebars, forks, stems, helmets,

whole bicycles,

Quoted message said:

disc brake rotors etc are being recalled all the time,

sometimes at quite

Quoted message said:

considerable financial cost to the manufacturer. Either it is

a massively

Quoted message said:

complex and coordinated conspiracy involving multiple companies

across the

Quoted message said:

globe and the US government or there is a simpler answer.

Right on. Maybe there is a problem, but I have not seen the mass
of injuries or lawsuits everybody is talking about.
Manufacturers of problem components commonly launch voluntary
recalls -- especially since much of the economic burden is shared
by the retailers who signed-up to do warranty/recall work. I
feel sorry for those guys. Recalls are a good reason for a LBS
not to be a dealer for anyone. -- Jay Beattie.

Tony Raven said:

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I asked earlier
"Compelling" would seem to require at least having one person from the many
tens of thousand mountain bikers out there using discs reporting to a
manufacturer that they have experienced a problem of this nature with their
product. So far it looks as if no-one has done that in which case it would
not be unreasonable for them to assume that whatever the theory, across a
large population sample it is not happening in practice.

But surely you have to agree that it _does_ happen in practice (where
"it" means at a minimum a failure of indeterminate cause with the front
wheel attachment, even if you dispute the design fault). You only have
to follow the links on my web page to see that (and don't pretend you do
not read STW yourself). Further, it is also clear to anyone who had not
closed their eyes that the number of failures whatevver the cause is
much much higher with disk brakes (3 times in a group ride, and no fewer
than 6 times for a journalist testing a bike!)

It's true that mountainbikers have in the main not helped themselves by
their unwillingness to mention failures to the manufacturers. There are
a number of reasons which may explain this. There is also clear evidence
that the manufacturers are ignoring any failures that they are informed
of (see the subject line).

I have also heard privately of other complaints that were conveyed to
the mnufacturers. There is more to this than you are aware of, however
much you try to put a reasonable spin on their behaviour.

James

Gary Young said:

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

This is not so much a suspicion as an openly stated fact within the
industry.

James

Tony Raven said:

Tim McNamara said:

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what you're
suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the
manufacturers, I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated
with "massive product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and
they don't see that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but
that's between themselves, their lawyers and their liability
insurance carriers. In the meantime, the users of these products
are the ones assuming the risk.

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I asked
earlier "Compelling" would seem to require at least having one
person from the many tens of thousand mountain bikers out there
using discs reporting to a manufacturer that they have experienced a
problem of this nature with their product. So far it looks as if
no-one has done that in which case it would not be unreasonable for
them to assume that whatever the theory, across a large population
sample it is not happening in practice.

Well, presumably James has repored his experience, and Russ who will
also be going to court.

Quoted message said:

Have a look at the number of bicycle related CPSC actions and
recalls (http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/prod.asp, choose
Bicycles and Accessories and click Find)and ask why on earth would
they ignore this particular problem when handlebars, forks, stems,
helmets, whole bicycles, disc brake rotors etc are being recalled
all the time, sometimes at quite considerable financial cost to the
manufacturer. Either it is a massively complex and coordinated
conspiracy involving multiple companies across the globe and the US
government or there is a simpler answer.

I think the simplest answer is that the CPSC has not yet realized that
this can happen, and without a flood of complaints they won't. Of
course, riders will tend to think "wow, I must not have done up my QR
tight enough, because everybody knows QRs never loosen up if they're
used properly." So they wouldn't actually realize that it's a design
problem.

James Annan says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

This is not so much a suspicion as an openly stated fact within the
industry.

Care to provide a reference for this "fact?"

[email hidden] (Stephen Baker) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

James Annan says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

This is not so much a suspicion as an openly stated fact within the
industry.

Care to provide a reference for this "fact?"

http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1063

"I wrote the article now being commented on (it's on my trade-only
site) and have talked to LOTS of fork folk from around the world. None
want to go on record with any quotes but all are working hard on
long-term solutions. Forks from 2005 onwards will not suffer from the
'Annan problem'."

Carlton Reid, editor of www.bikebiz.co.uk

By the way, if you really have a question to put to me, a.m-b
generally isn't the best place for it, as I only skim it occasionally.
But if you just want to make a snide comment behind my back, feel free
to cut out the x-post again...

James

James Annan says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Care to provide a reference for this "fact?"

http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1063

Thanks - I'll go look at that in a min.

Quoted message said:

By the way, if you really have a question to put to me, a.m-b
generally isn't the best place for it, as I only skim it occasionally.

Well, if you want to say things on the newsgroup I frequent, that's where
you're gonna get your answer.

Quoted message said:

But if you just want to make a snide comment behind my back, feel free
to cut out the x-post again...

All snide comments made face-to-face, so to speak. It's no fun behind your
back...
If the x-post was cut, please blame AOHell, who don't give me an option to
x-post or not, it just goes where they say it goes.

Steve