Re: Expressways and Cyclists?

Quoted message said:

From: "Tim Jones" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: aus.bicycle
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:46:17 +1100
Subject: Re: Expressways and Cyclists?

"Chris Baird" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Confused by the actual state of the (NSW) law, after reading and being
told lots of conflicting information, and finding nothing on Google,
the Australian Road Rules, or the RTA's site...

So.. what is the legality of riding a bike on an expressway?
(citing references?)

And, how are you supposed to recognise an expressway, anyway? What
people around me call the "F3 Expressway" is only marked as "freeway"
on the NRMA/RTA/Cycleway maps I have.

In Melbourne, freeways where you are not allowed to ride are expressly
marked with "no horse, tractors, bicyclists" etc at the entrance.

Tim

Unless you're riding in Critical Mass.
No cycling on the freeways -- Bicycles Excepted!

Juz said:

Unless you're riding in Critical Mass. No cycling on the freeways --
Bicycles Excepted!

Mmmm, even after some 70+ rides we still remember one ride along the SE
Arterial with some fondness in 2001. The wheels absolutely hummed over
the road. Very rare to get the opportunity to cycle on a such good
quality tarmac.😄

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

--

"cfsmtb" <spam@spameggs&spam.com.vic> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juz said:

Unless you're riding in Critical Mass. No cycling on the freeways --
Bicycles Excepted!

Mmmm, even after some 70+ rides we still remember one ride along the SE
Arterial with some fondness in 2001. The wheels absolutely hummed over
the road. Very rare to get the opportunity to cycle on a such good
quality tarmac.😄

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

I'm not sure if it was part of the plans, but we got the very handy
underpass and bridge heading along under the SE Freeway from Glenferrie rd,
and the pontoon path along the Yarra through Burnley to Richmond.

Tim

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank?
They're also supposed to be linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee
Ponds Creek.

--
Jeremy Lunn
Melbourne, Australia
Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

Quoted message said:

From: Jeremy Lunn <[email hidden]>

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank?
They're also supposed to be linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee
Ponds Creek.

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed
Burnley Wharf, added the "troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway
between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd, and also built the bottom part
of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering
(tight-angle downhill corners and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge
number of cycle accidents. Also the Moonee Ponds Creek trail is subject to
regular flooding & features underpasses with a clearance of 1.9 metres (I'm
almost 2m tall, and when I'm riding my MTB I have to duck when I ride under
these underpasses). These are both classic examples of road engineers
building sub-standard bike facilities because they don't know how to build
infrastructure properly for bikes.

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City Trail
along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail --
Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next year an underpass beneath
Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the underpass
will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting
co-funding from Parks Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Juz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: Jeremy Lunn <[email hidden]>

cfsmtb spam@spameggs&amp said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

Hmmmm the pontoon thing since they took up all of the river bank?
They're also supposed to be linking up the Yarra Main Trail with Moonee
Ponds Creek.

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed
Burnley Wharf, added the "troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway
between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd,

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project,
Kennet inspired.

and also built the bottom part

Quoted message said:

of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering
(tight-angle downhill corners and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge
number of cycle accidents.

Not cauased in part by cyclists going faster than the conditions allow
?
I remember the route pre pontoon. I'll take the pontoon and all its
faults thnak you very much
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed
Burnley Wharf, added the "troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway
between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd,

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project,
Kennet inspired.

100% sure. The is a State Govt requirement that any new or reconstructed
freeway must have a shared path adjacent to it. The paths I mentioned were
built by Transurban as part of the CityLink development.

Quoted message said:

and also built the bottom part

Quoted message said:

of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering
(tight-angle downhill corners and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a huge
number of cycle accidents.

Not cauased in part by cyclists going faster than the conditions allow
?
I remember the route pre pontoon. I'll take the pontoon and all its
faults thnak you very much
[snip]

"Going faster than the conditions" is a circular argument. The wooden
decking on ramps was very slippery when it was wet from rain or dew. That is
a design fault, pure & simple.

What you're saying is that because cyclists might whiz along the flat
stretches of the path, they ought to slow down to 10-15km/h so they can
safely navigate the ramps. All manner of cyclists were having accidents --
the first one occurred a week after the path opened and they were occurring
at a rate of dozens a week by the time Parks Vic got around to resurfacing
the ramps with non-slip material.

I hardly think that it's appropriate to blame the victim -- the ramps should
have been properly deisgned from the word go. I'm flummoxed how someone
could design a path where you turn a sharp-ish corner while negotiating a
downhill wooden ramp, and just for fun your have some very unforgiving metal
barriers which you can hit if you slip.

Juz said:

these underpasses). These are both classic examples of road engineers
building sub-standard bike facilities because they don't know how to build
infrastructure properly for bikes.

Yeah it goes to show how organisations like BV treat bike paths along
freeways as a win when it's not (I couldn't think of a worse place to
ride) and waste time lobbying for such things. When in fact they should
put the effort into actually lobbying against freeways.

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City Trail
along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail --
Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next year an underpass beneath
Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the underpass
will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting
co-funding from Parks Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Probably wouldn't be necessary if road engineers hadn't designed that
place to be so cyclist/pedestrian hostile.

--
Jeremy Lunn
Melbourne, Australia
Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

"Jeremy Lunn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juz said:

these underpasses). These are both classic examples of road engineers
building sub-standard bike facilities because they don't know how to

build

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

infrastructure properly for bikes.

Yeah it goes to show how organisations like BV treat bike paths along
freeways as a win when it's not (I couldn't think of a worse place to
ride) and waste time lobbying for such things. When in fact they should
put the effort into actually lobbying against freeways.

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting through
legislation that makes it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to freeways
means that there is an easy, safe method to cover decent distance to make
bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about recreation.

I don't think that riding next to a freeway is great, but in many stretches
of SE Freeway and Eastern, you don't even notice it. And compared to riding
on road with cars (for me at least) it is a boon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City

Trail

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail --
Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next year an underpass

beneath

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the

underpass

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting
co-funding from Parks Victoria & Docklands Authority.

Probably wouldn't be necessary if road engineers hadn't designed that
place to be so cyclist/pedestrian hostile.

Tim

"Juz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

CityLink built the floating Yarra trail (aka pontoon bridge), developed
Burnley Wharf, added the "troll bridge" suspended under the SE Freeway
between St Kevin's College & Glenferrie Rd, and also built the bottom part
of the Moonee Ponds Creek trail close to Footscray Rd.

Check this one, I believe you're wrong. The Yarra-Gardiner Bridge and the
suspended path were built pre-City Link by the Kennett government. After
years of lobbying by Bicycle Victoria this was Kennett's sole expenditure on
cyclists for one year - '95 IIRC.

Quoted message said:

But let's not forget that the floating path's abysmal engineering
(tight-angle downhill corners and wooden decking on ramps) has caused a

huge

Quoted message said:

number of cycle accidents.

Since rectified by resurfacing after lobbying by BV. Ride the Northbank
pontoon and then compare to the narrow, cracked winding path on the
southside. The pontoon is far better, and people use it, the best
indication.

Quoted message said:

Re: the linking of the Yarra Trail (I guess you mean the Capital City

Trail

Quoted message said:

along the west side of Footscray Rd) with Moonee Pomds Creek Trail --
Melbourne City Council is proposing to build next year an underpass

beneath

Quoted message said:

Footscray Rd which will link the two bike paths. The cost of the underpass
will be approx $300k, and go-ahead is contingent on the council getting
co-funding from Parks Victoria & Docklands Authority.

This one will be pointless after the recent path realignment around the new
docklands rail link. Instead ofa simple path rail crossing cyclists are
redirected 150 metres back to Footscray Rd then 150 metres south again.So
convoluted that many will just chance it and ride Footscray Rd. There's
cycle-friendly planning for you.

Cheers
Peter

Quoted message said:

Juz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure about that ? I'm pretty sure it was a Vic Gov project,
Kennet inspired.

100% sure. The is a State Govt requirement that any new or reconstructed
freeway must have a shared path adjacent to it. The paths I mentioned were
built by Transurban as part of the CityLink development.

If you said 99% sure, I'd let it go, but you said 100% so can you
prove it ? I[snip]

Tim Jones said:

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting through
legislation that makes it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to freeways
means that there is an easy, safe method to cover decent distance to make
bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about recreation.

Freeways tend not to be direct enough for serious bicycle travel. For
example if you want to head from Box Hill North to the City, if you took
the path alongside the freeway you'd be going via Bulleen. Barring the
noise and unsightliness, it can be okay for recreational riding though
the uninspiring nature is very off putting.

I used tot ake the freeway so I could head up to the Yarra from Box Hill
though it's kilometre after kilometre of nothingness, then a shocking
part where just a wire fence separates cyclists from the freeway. Now I
find it better to just head up Whitehorse Rd and take the outer circle.
Only problem is crossing the freeway at Chandler Hwy, it's the most
hostile place on earth. Typical job of the 1970s road engineer.

As for whether it's a fight BV would win, it's got more chances of
winning with BV's support than without. Probably the rea reason why BV
aren't going out against freeways is because of their VicRoads/DoI
funding. All we have against freeways at the moment is really the
Public Transport Users Association (very effective for it's size), even
EV can't be trusted (with John McPherson going out in support of
Tollroads!).

--
Jeremy Lunn
Melbourne, Australia
Homepage: http://www.austux.net/
http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the next generation of Instant Messaging.

"Jeremy Lunn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tim Jones said:

That is not a fight they are going to win any time soon. But putting

through

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

legislation that makes it necessary to have bikepaths tagging to

freeways

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

means that there is an easy, safe method to cover decent distance to

make

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bicycle travel more attractive rather than it just being about

recreation.

Quoted message said:

Freeways tend not to be direct enough for serious bicycle travel. For
example if you want to head from Box Hill North to the City, if you took
the path alongside the freeway you'd be going via Bulleen. Barring the
noise and unsightliness, it can be okay for recreational riding though
the uninspiring nature is very off putting.

Well, I'm probably in a different possition to most. I was in a position to
select a home close to the SE Freeway bike path, and for me, it is a quick
ride into the city.

For me it now takes 20 - 25 minutes to get into the city from Ashburton.

I certainly do not like the portion of the new path where you get to look at
traffic through a perspex screen.

Quoted message said:

I used tot ake the freeway so I could head up to the Yarra from Box Hill
though it's kilometre after kilometre of nothingness, then a shocking
part where just a wire fence separates cyclists from the freeway. Now I
find it better to just head up Whitehorse Rd and take the outer circle.
Only problem is crossing the freeway at Chandler Hwy, it's the most
hostile place on earth. Typical job of the 1970s road engineer.

Haven't seen that part.

Quoted message said:

As for whether it's a fight BV would win, it's got more chances of
winning with BV's support than without. Probably the rea reason why BV
aren't going out against freeways is because of their VicRoads/DoI
funding. All we have against freeways at the moment is really the
Public Transport Users Association (very effective for it's size), even
EV can't be trusted (with John McPherson going out in support of
Tollroads!).

Fair 'nuf

Tim

cfsmtb said:

Quoted message said:

Were there provisions for cycle paths with the construction of CityLink
other than the Moonee Ponds Creek Path extention? From memory I think
there were, but plans were scrapped. Sydney did better with the Glebe
Bridge cycle path.

--

You mean the "Anzac Bridge"?

Paths along side the freeways would be a great encouragement for more
people to ride as an alternative to driving. As Boxing day was a public
hoiday and the roads were quiet I rode to work along the freeway between
Werribee and the Altona ( I must have missed the no bicycle signs 🙂).
This saved 30 minutes on the ride time (down to 1hr 15m each way), and I
felt a lot safer than riding the recomended route. The recommended way
is along skinny roads, with poor edging and holes, through industrial
areas with trucks everywhere. With a bike track along the freeway, I
could ride 2-3 times a week and there are possibly a lot of other people
in the same situation.

--