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If ped's are so afraid of 'pavemnet cyclists' why do they walk in cycle paths?

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UK and Europe
Published
12 June 2004
Last activity
13 June 2004
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Howard
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36
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  1. We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists' often claiming
    that this is 'dangerous'. However, why is it that pedestrians fear of
    cyclists seems to evaoporate when they want to use facilities
    supposedly set aside for cyclists? How come almost half the users of
    The National 'Cycle' Network are pedestrians? Why is it that
    pedestrians seem incapable of walking on the correct side of a
    segregated cycle/footpath? Why is it that most shared use paths are
    full of dog walkers seemingly oblivious of cyclists actually trying to
    get somewhere by using the path?

    'Tis a rare old puzzle and no mistake.

    P.s

    My guess is that rants about 'pavement cyclists' are little more then
    your average right wing authoritarian getting into a tiss about seeing
    a 'low status outgroup' 'breaking the rules', which, of course, in
    most societies is the prerogative of the dominant social group. (Such
    as the users of motor vehicles)...

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian comes back with 'why do
    cyclists use the roads if they are so afraid of cars' the answer is
    because that is where they should ride and they see no reason why they
    should stop cycling and allow a supposedly public resource to be
    appropriated by motor vehicle users!

  2. "Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    P.s

    My guess is that rants about 'pavement cyclists' are little more then
    your average right wing authoritarian getting into a tiss about seeing
    a 'low status outgroup' 'breaking the rules', which, of course, in
    most societies is the prerogative of the dominant social group. (Such
    as the users of motor vehicles)...

    "My" criticism of pavement cyclists in the local rag the other day wasn't
    me - it was an impostor using my name!

    --
    Simon Mason
    Anlaby
    East Yorkshire.
    53°44'N 0°26'W
    http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

  3. Quoted message said:

    My guess is that rants about 'pavement cyclists' are little more then
    your average right wing authoritarian getting into a tiss about seeing
    a 'low status outgroup' 'breaking the rules'

    Or perhaps it's people like me (politically-conservative enthusiastic
    cyclist!) who don't want to be run over by 14-year-old yobs cycling on
    pavements?

    Your prejudices are showing ;-)

  4. Howard said:

    We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists'

    Is this a flame against poor old me? Too bad I have a thick skin and have
    been flamed by experts in the past. Most of my points were restrained to
    your post in the other thread and I won't repeat them here. But a quick
    recap - I have no problems with cyclists on shared use paths, bridleways
    etc. and either walk in the ped lane or give cyclists plenty of room,
    often stepping to one side of the bridleway.

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian

    Are they any on u.r.c?

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  5. "Andy Leighton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Howard said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian

    Are they any on u.r.c?

    Relatively few cyclephobes, but a hell of a lot of authoritarians to compensate!
    --
    "A kilt opens up new possibilities."
    - Gary D. Schwartz in rec.backcountry

  6. "Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian comes back with 'why do
    cyclists use the roads if they are so afraid of cars' the answer is
    because that is where they should ride and they see no reason why they
    should stop cycling and allow a supposedly public resource to be
    appropriated by motor vehicle users!

    Exactly the same could be said of pedestrians. Pedestrians are permitted to
    use all cycleways, cycletracks, cyclepaths bar none. Indeed, as many of
    these facilities were once footpaths, to criticise people who wish to
    appropriate roads for motor vehicles but then to support the appropriation
    of footpaths (by means of a bit of white paint) for cyclists seems somewhat
    hypocriticial

    I would suggest if people didn't pigeon-hole themselves into their favoured
    road-user group and then adopt an "us and them" attitude, we (as a society)
    could work together to resolve these things so everyone can get to where
    they wish to go by the means they choose without being unncessarily
    endangered or inconvenienced by others. Won't happen while people are intent
    on pointing the finger at everyone else mind.


  7. Quoted message said:

    I would suggest if people didn't pigeon-hole themselves into their favoured
    road-user group and then adopt an "us and them" attitude, we (as a society)
    could work together to resolve these things so everyone can get to where
    they wish to go by the means they choose without being unncessarily
    endangered or inconvenienced by others. Won't happen while people are intent
    on pointing the finger at everyone else mind.

    U.R.C post of the month in opinion!

  8. On 12 Jun 2004 03:25:23 -0700, [email hidden] (Howard)

    Quoted message said:

    We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists' often claiming
    that this is 'dangerous'.

    We should make them wear h*lm*ts

    And if that doesn't stop them, b*bsh*rts.

  9. Howard posted:

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian comes back with 'why do
    cyclists use the roads if they are so afraid of cars' the answer is
    because that is where they should ride and they see no reason why they
    should stop cycling and allow a supposedly public resource to be
    appropriated by motor vehicle users!

    Which is a damn good argument, virtually identical in fact, for pedestrians
    walking on footpaths thereby stopping cyclists appropriating footpaths just
    'cos they're daubed with white lines .. 😉

    I wonder what your point is ?

    --
    Paul ...

    (8(|) ... Homer Rocks

  10. Howard said:

    We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists' often claiming
    that this is 'dangerous'. However, why is it that pedestrians fear of
    cyclists seems to evaoporate when they want to use facilities
    supposedly set aside for cyclists?

    Both are dangerous IMO. Roads are for bikes.

  11. Quoted message said:

    I have no problems with cyclists on shared use paths, bridleways
    etc. and either walk in the ped lane or give cyclists plenty of room,
    often stepping to one side of the bridleway.

    Ah, so you ARE upset predominantly by the fact that 'pavement
    cyclists' are seen to be 'breaking the rules', you old authoritarian
    you!

    That said I do agree that irresponsible pavement cycling (the sort
    displayed by many youths on BMX bikes and so on) is yet another sign
    of the breakdown in respect for the law and other people that
    characterises British society. Still, let's not forget it is the users
    of motor vehicles who set the precedents here. As J.S. Dean wrote in
    1947 in his book 'Murder most foul: a study of the road deaths
    problem;

    'The trouble with the facts about the law-breaking of the motorists
    and the motor interests is that there are too many: it is difficult
    even to grasp them. In fact, the position has long since passed far
    beyond the limits of ordinary law-breaking and become an exhibition of
    national degeneracy.'

    I don't see some responsible adult, or child, riding, on the pavement
    out of fear of car drivers is the same sort of offence as genuinely
    inconsiderate pavement cycling at all. You seem to be overly concerned
    by what sounded like a very considerate 'pavement cyclist' which is
    rather irrational. As has already been pointed out many other examples
    of lawless behaviour, such as speeding are not only anti-social, they
    are genuinely dangerous and much more worthy of concern. Do you work
    yourself up into a state of righteous indignation when you see someone
    doing 31 MPh in a 30 MPh zone I wonder. Probably not, in fact I would
    bet you frequently flout the speed limit yourself. Pot calling kettle
    black and all that...

    Even the Home Office takes a similar line on pavement cycling and
    issued the following to police forces when it introduced 'fixed
    penalty notices' for pavement cycling:

    'The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing
    so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement,
    acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young
    people, are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use
    of police discretion is required.'

    Almost identical advice has been (or certainly should have been) given
    to community wardens regarding the use of their powers to curb
    anti-social behaviour. The following is from I letter I received from
    John Crozier on this very topic.

    'The Government have included provision in the Anti Social Behaviour
    Bill to enable CSOs and accredited persons to stop those cycling
    irresponsibly on the pavement in order to issue a fixed penalty
    notice. I should stress that the issue is about inconsiderate
    cycling on the pavements. The new provisions are not aimed at
    responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement
    out of fear of the traffic, and who show consideration to other road
    users when doing so. Chief officers recognise that the fixed penalty
    needs to be used with a considerable degree of discretion and it
    cannot be issued to anyone under the age of 16.

  12. "Pete White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I would suggest if people didn't pigeon-hole themselves into their


    favoured

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    road-user group and then adopt an "us and them" attitude, we (as a


    society)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    could work together to resolve these things so everyone can get to where
    they wish to go by the means they choose without being unncessarily
    endangered or inconvenienced by others. Won't happen while people are


    intent

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on pointing the finger at everyone else mind.

    U.R.C post of the month in opinion!

    hear hear!!...good point well made.......
    ....and I suspect the reason 'they' use 'em round 'ere is that they have not
    been educated in their use.....as 'cyclists', we're aware of them but as
    'pedestrians' they are not...it's only at the point that an indignant
    cyclists wants to make the point that they (believe they) have 'R.O.W.' on
    that bit of tarmac that it occurs to them something might be different....of
    course they then suffer a certain amount of indignation that some bloody
    bureaucrat has knicked a bit of their pavement and given it to
    cyclists...who should be on the bloody road anyway.....and it is so rare to
    see 'cyclists' out at all round 'ere that they get the shock of their lives
    to boot ;-)
    Dave.

  13. Howard said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have no problems with cyclists on shared use paths, bridleways
    etc. and either walk in the ped lane or give cyclists plenty of room,
    often stepping to one side of the bridleway.

    Ah, so you ARE upset predominantly by the fact that 'pavement
    cyclists' are seen to be 'breaking the rules', you old authoritarian
    you!

    I am neither old nor authoritarian. I firmly believe that most cyclists
    are better off using the road (or provided cycle facilities) than the
    pavement. Choosing to hold my line whilst walking is certainly justified.
    I had a perfect right to walk along the pavement. The cyclist had no
    right being there.

    Quoted message said:

    That said I do agree that irresponsible pavement cycling (the sort
    displayed by many youths on BMX bikes and so on) is yet another sign
    of the breakdown in respect for the law and other people that
    characterises British society.

    So I take it you don't ride a BMX then!

    Quoted message said:

    Still, let's not forget it is the users
    of motor vehicles who set the precedents here.

    Absolutely. I condemn motor vehicles who take the easy option and
    break the rules just as I condemn cyclists who also do so.

    Quoted message said:

    are genuinely dangerous and much more worthy of concern. Do you work
    yourself up into a state of righteous indignation when you see someone
    doing 31 MPh in a 30 MPh zone I wonder. Probably not, in fact I would
    bet you frequently flout the speed limit yourself. Pot calling kettle
    black and all that...

    As you would be aware if you had read my followup to your post in the
    other thread I do not drive, have never driven and thus never flouted
    the speed limit at all.

    Quoted message said:

    Even the Home Office takes a similar line on pavement cycling and
    issued the following to police forces when it introduced 'fixed
    penalty notices' for pavement cycling:

    That letter has already been posted and I disagree with it completely.
    It is a complete nonsense as all it means is that police forces will
    completely ignore pavement cyclists of all types. It also legitimises
    the opinion that roads are dangerous and people should be allowed
    (and in some cases encouraged) to cycle on the pavements.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  14. Scott Leckey said:
    Quoted message said:

    My guess is that rants about 'pavement cyclists' are little more then
    your average right wing authoritarian getting into a tiss about
    seeing a 'low status outgroup' 'breaking the rules'

    Or perhaps it's people like me (politically-conservative enthusiastic
    cyclist!) who don't want to be run over by 14-year-old yobs cycling on
    pavements?

    Howard's excellent original point was that if pedestrians *really* were so
    worried about cylists then they wouldn't ever walk in cycle lanes for fear
    of getting run over by 14-year-old yobs.

    ~PB

  15. Paul - censored said:

    Which is a damn good argument, virtually identical in fact, for
    pedestrians walking on footpaths thereby stopping cyclists
    appropriating footpaths just 'cos they're daubed with white lines ..
    😉

    This is the correct motorcycle.

  16. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian comes back with 'why do
    cyclists use the roads if they are so afraid of cars' the answer is
    because that is where they should ride and they see no reason why they
    should stop cycling and allow a supposedly public resource to be
    appropriated by motor vehicle users!

    Which is a damn good argument, virtually identical in fact, for pedestrians
    walking on footpaths thereby stopping cyclists appropriating footpaths just
    'cos they're daubed with white lines .. 😉

    I wonder what your point is ?

    For my main 'point' read the first paragraph of my post...

    With regards the above, I was simply pointing out how unreasonable the
    typical 'if you don't like it don't use the roads' attitudes of many
    drivers are! I certainly don't think that it would be in any way
    acceptable for cyclists to appropriate footpaths from the pedestrian
    any more then I think it is right that car drivers have appropriated
    the public highway from cyclists and pedestrians (killing and maiming
    thousands of them into the bargain).

    For what it is worth I would argue that being the faster and
    overtaking party the primary burden of responsibility for ensuring the
    safety of pedestrians when using shared use paths lies with the
    cyclist. However, I would also argue that the same principal, if
    deemed to be 'right' when applied to the interaction between
    pedestrians and cyclists should be applied to the highways and the
    interaction between cyclists and motor vehicles. (Being the faster and
    overtaking party as well as, in this case, posing a much greater risk
    to third parties then the user faces).

    You suggest that pedestrians would be justified in deliberately
    obstructing cyclists in order to prevent them using a cycle path
    marked on the footway, or perhaps even passing them on shared use
    paths, on the basis that this would prevent these paths being
    appropriated by cyclists. Do you think that cyclists should also
    attempt to reclaim the highways from motor vehicle users by riding
    three abreast or more in order to prevent car drivers from passing? I
    would suggest that in both cases a little courtesy and common sense is
    called for instead.

    If the pedestrian is really concerned about reclaiming space
    appropriated by others perhaps they should start walking three abreast
    in the road. After all under the 1830 Highways Act pedestrians still
    have priority on highways. Doubtless you would support such direct
    action. Or would you feel that in this case, as it would be motorists
    who would be inconvenienced, the pedestrian, along with cyclists,
    should simply 'get out of the way'...

    Still all this is rather peripheral to my central point. If
    pedestrians are so afraid of 'pavement cyclists' why DO they walk in
    cycle paths?

  17. Howard said:

    Even the Home Office takes a similar line on pavement cycling and
    issued the following to police forces when it introduced 'fixed
    penalty notices' for pavement cycling:

    'The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
    cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
    traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing
    so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement,
    acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young
    people, are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use
    of police discretion is required.'

    Almost identical advice has been (or certainly should have been) given
    to community wardens regarding the use of their powers to curb
    anti-social behaviour.

    I have heard of these wardens attempting to fine a pavement cyclist
    recently. Discretion is all very well, but the law is against pavement
    cycling, not inconsiderate pavement cycling. If officers choose to go
    for the softest targets, there's little comeback.

    Colin McKenzie

    [Sorry if this doesn't thread properly - I corrected the subject.]
    --
    The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that
    it leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead!

  18. Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists' often claiming
    that this is 'dangerous'.

    We should make them wear h*lm*ts

    Well observed.

    When car drivers kill and maim cyclists it is argued that cyclists
    should wear polystyrene hats, however pointless this might be. When a
    cyclist 'nearly' collides with a pedestrian on a bridleway or similar,
    whoever is at fault the reaction is to call for cyclists to be banned
    from using the path, not to 'persuade' walkers to wear 'helmets'!

  19. Howard posted:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and before some cyclephobe authoritarian comes back with 'why do
    cyclists use the roads if they are so afraid of cars' the answer is
    because that is where they should ride and they see no reason why they
    should stop cycling and allow a supposedly public resource to be
    appropriated by motor vehicle users!

    Which is a damn good argument, virtually identical in fact, for
    pedestrians walking on footpaths thereby stopping cyclists appropriating
    footpaths just 'cos they're daubed with white lines .. 😉

    Quoted message said:

    You suggest that pedestrians would be justified in deliberately
    obstructing cyclists in order to prevent them using a cycle path

    No I don't.

    Quoted message said:

    marked on the footway, or perhaps even passing them on shared use
    paths, on the basis that this would prevent these paths being
    appropriated by cyclists.

    I merely repeated your argument with relation to peds and cyclists on paths,
    rather than cyclists and drivers on roads ...

    Pedestrians need paths, Motor vehicles need roads, Cycles can use either,
    where appropriate, so it's probably inevitable that some peds and some car
    drivers think cyclists have too much of a good thing because they have such
    a choice. Drivers and pedestrians don't have the choice ...

    --
    Paul ...

    (8(|) ... Homer Rocks

  20. On 12 Jun 2004 08:33:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Howard)

    wrote in message : said:

    That said I do agree that irresponsible pavement cycling (the sort
    displayed by many youths on BMX bikes and so on) is yet another sign
    of the breakdown in respect for the law and other people that
    characterises British society.

    My son aged ten has been told in no uncertain terms that he is too big
    to ride on the pavement. I blame the parents.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

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