What's the point of tubular tires?

Bruce W.1 said:

I used to ride on tubular tires, sew-ups, whatever you want to call
them. This was because clinchers did not have an equivalent pressure.

When was that? Narrow rims and narrow high-pressure clinchers were
introduced about 30 years ago.

Quoted message said:

About ten years ago I swapped my rims for clichers when they offered the
same pressure. And I've been happy ever since. No, I've been totally
delighted. I used to average one tubular blown per ride. I've never
had a clicher flat, well maybe once.

To what do you ascribe this difference? Tubulars should be subject to
about the same number of flats as lightweight clinchers due to sharp
objects (glass, thorns, etc.) and much less likely to have pinch
(snake-bite) flats. My experience was that I had slightly more flats
after switching to clinchers but they were so much easier to patch that
the trade-off was still worthwhile.

Quoted message said:

So I see tubular tires are still in stores today. Why do they still
sell these things?

Presumably because people still buy them. But I'd expect it to be a
very small percentage of total bike tire sales.

Bruce W.1 said:

I used to ride on tubular tires, sew-ups, whatever you want to call
them. This was because clinchers did not have an equivalent pressure.

About ten years ago I swapped my rims for clichers when they offered the
same pressure. And I've been happy ever since. No, I've been totally
delighted. I used to average one tubular blown per ride. I've never
had a clicher flat, well maybe once.

So I see tubular tires are still in stores today. Why do they still
sell these things? They do seem to have more colors.

Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers?

Thanks for your help.

Dear Bruce,

A similar question about tubular use was recently raised and
thrashed to death in 114 posts:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=e90052be.0405231344.6d27e3ec%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dpaul%2Bsherwen%2Bgroup:rec.bicycles.tech%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.bicycles.tech%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3De90052be.0405231344.6d27e3ec%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1

or

http://tinyurl.com/2qceh

As I recall, no one ever offered any convincing evidence
about what percentage of the European pro riders use
clinchers after Mike Krueger started wild arguments by
observing:

Paul Sherwen, on today's Giro TV broadcast, observed that
80% of the European pro peloton still races on tubular
tires. So much for the naysayers...

I may have missed some convincing post or link for or
against this 80% figure, so it would be nice if anyone would
rub my curious nose in the facts.

Carl Fogel

It is 16% more fun to say "tubular" than "clincher".

Bill "anyone invent a clinchular?" S.

Quoted message said:

Bill "anyone invent a clinchular?" S.

Clement had one. Tufo, too, I Think.
Phil Brown

Quoted message said:

30 years ago

I think a tubular has a different (better) feel when riding. More of
a sense of being in direct contact with the road without a cushion
between you and the road. Easier to corner, less roll in the tire.
I think this is due to the fact that the tubular rim has that solid
layer of alloy rim directly under the tire with a solid casing all
around the tire. You ride on a solid rim on a hard casing with
(effectively) no sidewall flex. With the clincher, OTOH, you end up
riding on a soft pliable tube, resting on the tire that has a soft,
relatively tall sidewall. More sidewall, more flex.

I will concur that I get more flats on tubulars and they are a pain
to repair. However, by riding a proper "road" tubular, you will
get many less flats. Unfortunately, the proper tires usually have a
heavier feel and more resistance so I usually run up the middle in
terms of tread.

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:56:24 -0400, "Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So I see tubular tires are still in stores today. Why do they still
sell these things?

Because there are still people who will buy them, for whatever reason.

Quoted message said:

They do seem to have more colors.

Yes, although the color selections in clinchers are even greater in
most cases.

Quoted message said:

Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers?

They ride whatever they either like, or get handed by their backer.
The Big Name Riders probably get to dictate the choice; the
barely-competitive types probably take what they're given. It would
not surprise me if some of the competitors have both types in their
spares kit.

Quoted message said:

Paul Sherwen, on today's Giro TV broadcast, observed that
80% of the European pro peloton still races on tubular
tires. So much for the naysayers...

Quoted message said:

I may have missed some convincing post or link for or
against this 80% figure, so it would be nice if anyone would
rub my curious nose in the facts.

I think 80% is exaggerated, but tubulars are certainly used much in pro
cycling. I think one real reason is the fact that many of the more
aerodynamic wheels have carbon fibre rims, which pretty much has ruled
out clinchers. Of course you can use a similar clincher rim which has
additional aluminium beads, but it only increases the total weight and
for pro riders there are no benefits.

Campagnolo is now offering clincher wheels with the rim made of carbon
fibre, but again you can get lower overwall weight by using tubulars.

-as

BW-<< About ten years ago I swapped my rims for clichers when they offered the
same pressure. And I've been happy ever since. No, I've been totally
delighted. I used to average one tubular blown per ride. I've never
had a clicher flat, well maybe once.

So I see tubular tires are still in stores today. Why do they still
sell these things? They do seem to have more colors.

Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers? >><BR><BR>

Well, after I tied and soldered my wheels, adjusted my Delta brakes, cleaned
the grease off my BB spindle taper, I think I'll jump in here.

'Clinchers offering the same pressure?'
'Blown tubie each ride?'

Yikes. Tubulars, in my personal experience but also subjective view, are a
lighter 'package, rim and tires, are more comfy since you don't have to put
120psi in them to prevent pinch flats(see above by BW-??), are safer cuz if
glued on properly, won't roll off a rim if flatted and I think corner better
since they are a profile that lends itself to hard cornering.

I get few flats, maybe a couple per year. Tubies, all things equal, will get
fewer since you get few(no) pinch flats.

I think the only advantage of clinchers is that you can repair them on the
road.

As for TdF-see advatages above. More than 1/2 are sponsored by tubie tire
makers. Since they don't have to put up with the 'gluing' issue or changing
issue, they use tubulars for the reasons stated above. Plus oohhh so many are
opting for all carbon rims, which lend themselves to tubulars, not clinchers.

if you got a bunch of flats with tubies and needed a tire with lots of
pressure, I think you missed the boat as to their 'advantages'. But if you are
happy with clinchers, groovy-now go ride.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Bruce W.1 said:

Thanks for your help.

troll

Bruce W.1 said:

I used to ride on tubular tires, sew-ups, whatever you want to call
them. This was because clinchers did not have an equivalent pressure.

About ten years ago I swapped my rims for clichers when they offered the
same pressure. And I've been happy ever since. No, I've been totally
delighted. I used to average one tubular blown per ride. I've never
had a clicher flat, well maybe once.

So I see tubular tires are still in stores today. Why do they still
sell these things? They do seem to have more colors.

Most trackies still use them because they stay on the rim in the event
of a puncture. However, punctures on an indoor track are extremely rare
and a tight clincher will also stay on the rim. Tubulars are not
compulsory on British tracks, anyway.

The rolling resistance gap has been closed, and cheap clinchers are
quite rideable - on the other hand, only the best (i.e. expensive)
tubulars are worth having as the cheap ones can be lumpy and badly made.

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:56:24 -0400, "Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

.. Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers? ... >

Some teams do.

I read yesterday from Pezcyclingnews.com that Shimano (I am sure other
MFG's too) are "pro" testing the tubeless road wheelsets. Tubeless MTB
rims are being used already.

"Ricardo Damiano Cunego" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:56:24 -0400, "Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

.. Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers? ... >

Some teams do.

I read yesterday from Pezcyclingnews.com that Shimano (I am sure other
MFG's too) are "pro" testing the tubeless road wheelsets. Tubeless MTB
rims are being used already.

I am in the process of watching last years tour de france; have a look at
beloki's
crash in stage 10, caused by a tubular heating up, (because of hot tar on
the road?)
loosening the glue and flailing off the rim. You can see this detail quiet
clearly on
the dvd (nicely narrated by sherwen & ligget). poor beloki has never been
the same.

Take a look again, it looks more like Beloki hit his rear brake too hard,
thus locking up his rear wheel and crashing. Yes, the tubie came off the
wheel, but his locking up the rear brake caused his crash!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:56:24 -0400, "Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

.. Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers? ... >

Some teams do.

I read yesterday from Pezcyclingnews.com that Shimano (I am sure other
MFG's too) are "pro" testing the tubeless road wheelsets. Tubeless MTB
rims are being used already.

I am in the process of watching last years tour de france; have a look at
beloki's
crash in stage 10, caused by a tubular heating up, (because of hot tar on
the road?)
loosening the glue and flailing off the rim. You can see this detail quiet
clearly on
the dvd (nicely narrated by sherwen & ligget). poor beloki has never been
the same.

Richard Chan said:

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:56:24 -0400, "Bruce W.1"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

.. Don't the Tour de France guys ride clinchers? ... >

Some teams do.

As for why, perhaps the principal reason is the fact that tubulars do
not flat nearly as often, and whether you're riding tubies or clinchers
and flat, the team car changes your wheel just the same. I suppose the
pro teams tend not to like losing time due to pinch flats...which
obviously doesn't happen with a tubular tire.

--

"Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<e3NAc.3096$WI2.2890@lakeread05>...

Quoted message said:

I used to average one tubular blown per ride.

Amazing. Were you riding over razor blades? That's a huge amounts of
flats.

The point of tubulars is that you can use a slightly lighter rim. And
perhaps they are more resistant to pinch flats. Other than that,
there is no difference in performance between tubulars and clinchers,
and clinchers are surely more convenient.

JT

Bob said:

I think a tubular has a different (better) feel when riding. More of
a sense of being in direct contact with the road without a cushion
between you and the road.

Try inflating your tubies. You will be pleasantly surprised.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

Quoted message said:

The point of tubulars is that you can use a slightly lighter rim. And
perhaps they are more resistant to pinch flats. Other than that,
there is no difference in performance between tubulars and clinchers,
and clinchers are surely more convenient.

JT

Here's another reason why I ride tubies. Clinchers are simply a pain in the
ass...

Here are the basic advantages
- Tubular wheels are 200 grams lighter per wheel (including tires, tubes,
rim strip, etc.)
- They are inpervious to pinch flats
- you can ride them at a lower pressure because of the above - comfort
- Safety. When tubies go flat they do not turn into some writhing mess of
rubber on the rim while you're coasting to a stop. I cannot imagine what
happens to clincher riders during a sudden blowout at high speed -
especially while cornering.
- Tubular wheelsets generally cost next to nothing. I have about 20 sets of
wheels obtained from yard sales and donations from ex-racers. I think the
most I ever paid for a set of wheels was 50 Canadian Pesos for some mint
high-flange Campy Record units.

I've ridden the same set of tubulars for the last 5 months. No flats. 10cc
of Slime in the rear tire makes sure of that. I have ridden on clinchers
twice this year.

First clincher ride results in me hitting a pothole while in a pack on a
group ride. Pinch flat.

Second clincher ride today. The rim strip blows through while I'm on the
road. Some green plastic thing. That never happens on tubies. Instead of
a 2 minute change with tubulars, the fix involves begging for electrical
tape to wrap the rim, wrestling with a brutally tight kevlar bead with 3
tire irons, then pulling the whole mess apart again because I'd made a tube
tear as a result of getting the tire back on the rim. 30 minutes of
swearing and sweating in the heat.

Bob said:

Quoted message said:

30 years ago

I think a tubular has a different (better) feel when riding. More of
a sense of being in direct contact with the road without a cushion
between you and the road. Easier to corner, less roll in the tire.
I think this is due to the fact that the tubular rim has that solid
layer of alloy rim directly under the tire with a solid casing all
around the tire. You ride on a solid rim on a hard casing with
(effectively) no sidewall flex.

Unfortunately this is all incorrect, except the subjective impression
which is neither provable or disprovable. Indeed your claims are the
exact opposite of almost every opinion ever rendered about the
differences between tubulars and clinchers- most people claim that
tubulars offer a softer and more comfortable ride than clinchers.

Tubulars- back in the day- were famous for having thinner and more
flexible casings than clinchers. The attachment method has little to
do cornering, IMHO, because there is very little side loading on a
bicycle wheel. The tubular had relatively unpredictable contact with
the rim, narrower tires having less contact and wider tires having
more contact; also the thickness of the center seam where the casing
is sewn together could act to lift some of the casing away from the
rim.

Quoted message said:

With the clincher, OTOH, you end up riding on a soft pliable tube,
resting on the tire that has a soft, relatively tall sidewall. More
sidewall, more flex.

This is more malarkey. Tubulars tended to be made with more supple
casings than clinchers (although this is less true now, since silk
tubs are no longer made and clincher casings have approximated
tubulars). Tubulars usually had latex inner tubes, which were
thinner, stretchier and more flexible than the thicker butyl rubber
tubes that most people use with clinchers (using latex tubes in
clinchers brings back that gentle ringing sound of tubulars, BTW).
The height of the sidewall is determined by the width of the tire,
since air pressure forces the casing into a round shape. The sidewall
of a Clement Campionato Del Mundo was just as tall as the sidewall of
any clincher of similar width. Ditto any other tub.

Dave Mayer said:

Here are the basic advantages
- Tubular wheels are 200 grams lighter per wheel (including tires, tubes,
rim strip, etc.)

That is way past the comparisons I have seen, or made. Yeah, the rim
itself can be lighter, but not as light as the good old days with a modern
9-10 speed cassette. Maybe 50g there. The rim strip is not all that
heavy, not even a good one (see below), and a comparable tire would be
comparable in weight, be it clincher or tubular. Both have the same
casing and tube. A tubular does not have a bead, but a Kevlar bead is
pretty light. Clinchers don't have a rim strip as part of the tire, nor
the part of the casing on the bottom of the tire. I'd say no more than
100g total weight savings for a tubular versus a comparable clincher.

Quoted message said:

- They are

inpervious to pinch flats

Not really. In the circumstances you describe, hitting a pothole, I have
had pinch flats with tubulars. The mechanism is the same. Tubular rims
do not have such an edge as clinchers, but they do have some edge to them
and a hard contact will do the same thing to either tire.

Quoted message said:

Safety. When tubies go flat they do not turn into some writhing mess of
rubber on the rim while you're coasting to a stop.

Actually, they can. And, clinchers can stay put quite nicely.

Quoted message said:

I cannot imagine
what happens to clincher riders during a sudden blowout at high speed -
especially while cornering.

The same things can happen with either tire. There is no magic to
tubulars here, and no disastrous weakness with clinchers.

Quoted message said:

- Tubular wheelsets generally cost next to nothing. I have about 20
sets of wheels obtained from yard sales and donations from ex-racers. I
think the most I ever paid for a set of wheels was 50 Canadian Pesos for
some mint high-flange Campy Record units.

This is absolutely true. But you might wonder why, with all these
advantages, people are dumping their tubular wheels in garage sales.

Quoted message said:

I've ridden the same set of tubulars for the last 5 months. No flats.
10cc of Slime in the rear tire makes sure of that.

5 months without a flat is hardly a record.

Quoted message said:

Second clincher ride today. The rim strip blows through while I'm on
the road. Some green plastic thing. That never happens on tubies.

If you use [censored] equipment, it would. Use a decent rim strip, and don't
blame the tire design for it.

Quoted message said:

Instead of a 2 minute change with tubulars,

the fix involves begging for

Quoted message said:

electrical tape to wrap the rim, wrestling with a brutally tight kevlar
bead with 3 tire irons, then pulling the whole mess apart again because
I'd made a tube tear as a result of getting the tire back on the rim. 30
minutes of swearing and sweating in the heat.

Well, there are some tire/rim combinations that are better than others. I
can take off and put on my tires without tire irons. I have had problems
with some rims, but I don't use them any longer.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | This is my religion. There is no need for temples; no need for
_`\(,_ | complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our
(_)/ (_) | temple. The philosophy is kindness. --The Dalai Lama