Black pro riders?

Curtis L. Russell said:

training, whatever that is (OK, what if Lance had tried training with
the brakes on?)

Specificity, specificity, specificity.

Shayne Wissler said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That you think this is the only pathway through which Americans of
African descent could be genetically closer to Americans of European
descent than to other Africans shows that you lack both knowledge and
imagination.

This is pure hot air, since neither you nor that "population
geneticist" are forthcoming with a single fact, or even hypothesis, to
contradict me.

So if I show you some references, will you admit you never did the
research? What, is research beneath you? Hint: do what you you should have
done first and google up the phrases "human genetic variation" and
"africa."

Africa has more genetic variability than any other continent. The key to
the original claim is that a large portion of African-Americans come from
a selected part of Africa: they mostly have origins from West Africa, and
West Africans appear to be closer genetically to European-Americans than
to many other African groups even if those groups were closer in a
geographic distance sense.

TM said:

We are clearly not discussing the same thing. I know several rail trails
that are over 30 miles long on which you can go as fast as you want. You
are going to argue that a facility like that does not create more interest
in cycling? You are stating that having one in a community hasn't sold one
bike or club membership?

Whatever. If road racing depends on the communities that have 30 mile
long MUPs open enough to train at speed, we may as well close down
USAC/USCF today. OTOH, most communities have roads that you can do
that on a regular basis.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Proton Soup

Quoted message said:

Didn't the Arabs do quite a bit of slave trading in East Africa a few
centuries back? Maybe east Africans aren't entirely "African". And

Not sure where the Kalenjin acquired their endurance ability, but I'm pretty
sure they didn't get it from the Arabs.

Quoted message said:

then you've also got those black Ethiopian Jews. Anyhow, there's
quite a bit of racial diversity in Africa I suppose.

Yep. "Black" is a very broad generalisation that covers a lot of different
ethnic groups.

Regardless, the top 100 sprinters in the world are
black. As Whit pointed out a lot time ago, there
are literally thousands of white and asian sprinters
trying to run as fast as they can, with superior
coaching. Yet they are still
completely dominated by black sprinters.

But don't say that we're all equal regardless of
minor genetic differences because that'll make you
a racist.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That you think this is the only pathway through which Americans of
African descent could be genetically closer to Americans of European
descent than to other Africans shows that you lack both knowledge and
imagination.

This is pure hot air, since neither you nor that "population
geneticist" are forthcoming with a single fact, or even hypothesis, to
contradict me.

So if I show you some references, will you admit you never did the
research? What, is research beneath you? Hint: do what you you should have
done first and google up the phrases "human genetic variation" and
"africa."

Hint: You should not be so open-minded that your brain falls out.

Quoted message said:

Africa has more genetic variability than any other continent. The key to
the original claim is that a large portion of African-Americans come from
a selected part of Africa: they mostly have origins from West Africa, and
West Africans appear to be closer genetically to European-Americans than
to many other African groups even if those groups were closer in a
geographic distance sense.

This is context dropping. The original conversation was not specific about
what area of Africa black Americans were being compared with. Clearly it's
possible for some African group to be even more genetically removed from
West Africans than West Africans are removed from Europeans. At least in
theory. But again this has nothing at all to do with the subject that was
being discussed.

Shayne Wissler

Shayne Wissler said:

This is context dropping. The original conversation was not specific
about what area of Africa black Americans were being compared with.
Clearly it's possible for some African group to be even more
genetically removed from West Africans than West Africans are removed
from Europeans. At least in theory. But again this has nothing at all
to do with the subject that was being discussed.

Oh really? To provide context, here is the original statement to which you
objected:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Frequencies of various genes vary all over the
place, but do not follow the boundaries of what people
refer to as different races. White Americans and Black
Americans are closer genetically than Black Americans
and Black Africans. Races are delineated mostly by skin
colour, a pretty meaningless biological variable and people
are assigned to one race or the other on arbitrary grounds.

Yes, people vary a lot genetically. They are probably the
most genetically heterogeneous species of animal. They
can not be divided into 'races' in any non-subjective way
because the variation is continuous and not discrete.
About 85% of the variation is within Africa anyway, since
humans originated there and only small sub-groups
migrated out of Africa.

You said his claim was such [censored] that there was no hypothesis or fact
that could possibly contradict you. I have now presented both a fact and a
hypothesis.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

This is context dropping. The original conversation was not specific
about what area of Africa black Americans were being compared with.
Clearly it's possible for some African group to be even more
genetically removed from West Africans than West Africans are removed
from Europeans. At least in theory. But again this has nothing at all
to do with the subject that was being discussed.

Oh really? To provide context, here is the original statement to which you
objected:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Frequencies of various genes vary all over the
> place, but do not follow the boundaries of what people
> refer to as different races. White Americans and Black
> Americans are closer genetically than Black Americans
> and Black Africans. Races are delineated mostly by skin
> colour, a pretty meaningless biological variable and people
> are assigned to one race or the other on arbitrary grounds.
>
> Yes, people vary a lot genetically. They are probably the
> most genetically heterogeneous species of animal. They
> can not be divided into 'races' in any non-subjective way
> because the variation is continuous and not discrete.
> About 85% of the variation is within Africa anyway, since
> humans originated there and only small sub-groups
> migrated out of Africa.

You said his claim was such [censored] that there was no hypothesis or fact
that could possibly contradict you. I have now presented both a fact and a
hypothesis.

No, all you've done is demonstrate stubbornness and poor reading
comprehension.

Shayne Wissler

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If road racing depends on the communities that have 30 mile
long MUPs open enough to train at speed, we may as well close down
USAC/USCF today.

Agreed. I think we have a dispute in degree and not kind. I was talking
about growing the sport, not it existing as it is. My observation was that
*more* pariticipation occurs when *more* people are comfortable biking in
general. The post that I responded to said, words to the effect, that not
having enough low cost events was preventing cycling from becoming more
mainstream. I just felt that that was putting the cart in front of the
horse and that, instead, I'd noticed that more people on bikes equals more
racers equals more events.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, most communities have roads that you can do
that on a regular basis.

I can see how you could take exception to my post if you read it as saying
you need a rail trail, etc to train in general. We both know that is not
true. I think, however, you can see my point if you realize I was directing
that comment towards the people who are missing from cycling today, but
would enjoy it if they were exposed to it. Another example would be ice
rinks. Sure people will drive 2 hrs to play hockey if they really want, but
build a rink in that town and the number of players increases.

You know, I was confused about the Lance part of your post. Did I rub you
the wrong way (I couldn't resist) when I posted earlier about his brake
incident? I just ask because I did not think my post was all that
controversial which led me to believe that I either botched writing it or
I'd crossed you on another topic some where along the line.

Top Sirloin said:

Quoted message said:

Yep. "Black" is a very broad generalisation that covers a lot of different
ethnic groups.

Regardless, the top 100 sprinters in the world are
black.

Not quite, but close.

Quoted message said:

As Whit pointed out a lot time ago, there
are literally thousands of white and asian sprinters
trying to run as fast as they can, with superior
coaching. Yet they are still
completely dominated by black sprinters.

Mankind originated in Africa. 85% of the genetic
diversity of humans is still to be found in Africa.
In Africa you will find the shortest people in the
world and the tallest. Probably most extremes
of human physiology, biochemistry and anatomy
will be found in Africa. The most efficient long distance
runners in the world are East Africans or people
descended from them. The fastest sprinters
in the world are West Africans or people descended
from them. With changing social climates and
increased opportunity it would not surprise me
if the best gymnasts, mathematicians, painters
or swimmers of the future were to be found in Africa.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

TM said:

You know, I was confused about the Lance part of your post. Did I rub you
the wrong way (I couldn't resist) when I posted earlier about his brake
incident?

Nope. Just an aside - probably the only bike racer in recent memory
that could have used trainig in that mode.

I came close once - completely cooked on a training ride using the
backup/commuter and found at the end of the 60 miles that the
under-bracket generator was rolling on the tire the whole way, with
about a quarter inch of tar picked up off of hot roads 'helping'.
Evidently left it flipped open from the last late night ride home and
never, ever noticed it. Hell of a workout, but I should have bit the
bullet and fixed the tire on the other bike.

Or maybe the lesson is never use an under bracket generator, where you
can't see the damn thing flipped open.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Shayne Wissler said:

No, all you've done is demonstrate stubbornness and poor reading
comprehension.

It's absolutely true that I am stubborn, and almost absolutely true that I
have poor reading skills, but they are irrelevant to this: I cited a
demonstrable fact (that there is more genetic diversity in Africa than
elsewhere) and provided a hypothesis (that black Americans were
non-randomly selected from the African genetic pool) that could explain a
particular claim. You have yet to provide any evidence to support your
position.

"Curtis L. Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:42:50 GMT, "TM" <[email hidden]> wrote:

I came close once - completely cooked on a training ride using the
backup/commuter and found at the end of the 60 miles that the
under-bracket generator was rolling on the tire the whole way, with
about a quarter inch of tar picked up off of hot roads 'helping'.

Ouch. I just read an ad for a product with what they called RBT (Reverse
Bolt Technology) because they have turned the bolts on a stem around. That
and your post have me thinking that if we bought some of these under-bracket
generators, we might make some money calling them FITE 'Friction Induced
Training Enhancers'. We could slip a couple of washed up racers some money
to earnestly tell people to "FITE their way into shape". We would, of
course, have to charge an embarrassing amount of money for them and then
come out with a carbon model at twice the price when sales of the original
started to slow.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That you think this is the only pathway through which Americans of African
descent could be genetically closer to Americans of European descent than
to other Africans shows that you lack both knowledge and imagination.

Well it is rather difficult to ride a bicycle with a TV under your arm and
elude the police at the same time!

Cathar

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:5TPjc.37454>

Quoted message said:

No, all you've done is demonstrate stubbornness and poor reading
comprehension.

Shayne Wissler

Just what kind of name is "Shayne", is it a black name?

Cathar

"Shayne Wissler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gpGjc.45047$GR.6550936@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

This is pure hot air, since neither you nor that "population geneticist"
are
forthcoming with a single fact, or even hypothesis, to contradict me.

Shayne Wissler

The fact that your name is "Shayne" is forthcoming enough to contradict
you.<G>

Yes, I do remember old "Alan Ladd" movies, he was also very short, much as
yourself.

Cathar

"TM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think the biggest problem facing the growth of the sport is the
ability to put on accessible (cost, location) events.

I'd back it up one step further. I have noticed that biking seems to exist
in pockets where there is comfortable access to the sport by novices. Areas
with rail trails, bike lanes, novice mtb trails always seem to have clubs
where places without those facilities do not.

Training is 90% of the sport. Take away a place to train and the reason for
owning a bike disappears for you whether you're black, white, red or orange.

To some extent I agree with you, that good roads or trails help foster
a local cycling scene.

Here in Toronto there are lots of riders (commuters, mtn bikers and
performance riders). Rides can have great turnouts, but that does not
translate into huge fields at the races. There are lots of ex- and
dabbling racers who would race (or race more) under the right
circumstances.

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS said:

I've heard speculation that extensive inbreeding is
one contributing factor in their difficulties in the
wild.

It is (maybe was) also as much a contributer to their success.

Helgi Briem <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Top Sirloin said:

Quoted message said:

Yep. "Black" is a very broad generalisation that covers a lot of

different

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ethnic groups.

Regardless, the top 100 sprinters in the world are
black.

Not quite, but close.

last i checked 494 of the top 500 were WEST AFRICAN black.

there are NO east african top sprinters (but they dominate distance running)

west african origin blacks make up about 10% of the world's population, but
completely dominate sprinting

DOZENS of blacks (all west african) but NO asians (what %age of the world
population is asian) or whites have done it.

take the top 8 100 meter runners (as of 2000)

all west african black, but from diverse countries - USA, Namibia, Trinidad
and Tobago, and Canada.

over 140 sub 10 second times.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As Whit pointed out a lot time ago, there
are literally thousands of white and asian sprinters
trying to run as fast as they can, with superior
coaching. Yet they are still
completely dominated by black sprinters.

Mankind originated in Africa. 85% of the genetic
diversity of humans is still to be found in Africa.
In Africa you will find the shortest people in the
world and the tallest. Probably most extremes
of human physiology, biochemistry and anatomy
will be found in Africa. The most efficient long distance
runners in the world are East Africans or people
descended from them. The fastest sprinters
in the world are West Africans or people descended
from them. With changing social climates and
increased opportunity it would not surprise me
if the best gymnasts, mathematicians, painters
or swimmers of the future were to be found in Africa.

but that would be stupid.

because you probably don't know what is needed in gymnastic is TOTALLY
different from sprinting (high joint flexibility for instance).

and spare me the math, painter stuff. this is about objective measures -
sports performance, not subjective and highly environmentally based stuff
(education etc) like academics.

and don't even get me started on swimming. you should have just a LITTLE
bit of knowledge about sports before you make such claims.

hint: what elite athletes have the among the highest levels of BF of any
elite athletes?

whit

Quoted message said:

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

Robert Chung said:

Steven Bornfeld said:

Also heard recently that naked mole rats are cold-blooded--I
thought being warm-blooded was a sine qua non of mammalia.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cberger/syllabusfolder/animaldiversity/Heterocephalus_glaber.html

Thanks. My daughter recently saw some of these at the science center in Seattle, and she begged
me to get her one as a pet. I think I'll pass...

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com

gwhite said:

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS said:

I've heard speculation that extensive inbreeding is
one contributing factor in their difficulties in the
wild.

It is (maybe was) also as much a contributer to their success.

Maybe not the place to discuss this, but since genetic diversity is
usually considered a positive for long-term survival, how can inbreeding
contribute to success?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com