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Re: Best Rivalry of all time in any sport

Started by Davide Tosi · · Last activity · 18 posts · 1,623 views

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Road Cycling
Published
26 June 2004
Last activity
1 July 2004
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Davide Tosi
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  1. Trapper said:

    Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    No way.
    For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    least really respective of each other off court.

    To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal"😉 and two
    that represent very different lifestyles.

    If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a lot
    of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of him.
    But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was very
    aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his thoughts.
    Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his wife
    and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning against
    more gifted opponents.

  2. Sierraman said:

    "Davide Tosi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Trapper said:

    Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    No way.
    For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    least really respective of each other off court.

    To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal"😉 and two
    that represent very different lifestyles.

    If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a


    lot

    Quoted message said:

    of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of


    him.

    Quoted message said:

    But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was


    very

    Quoted message said:

    aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his


    thoughts.

    Quoted message said:

    Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his


    wife

    Quoted message said:

    and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning


    against

    Quoted message said:

    more gifted opponents.

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    I didn't say that.
    If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

  3. "Davide Tosi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Trapper said:

    Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    No way.
    For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    least really respective of each other off court.

    To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal"😉 and two
    that represent very different lifestyles.

    If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a


    lot

    Quoted message said:

    of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of


    him.

    Quoted message said:

    But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was


    very

    Quoted message said:

    aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his


    thoughts.

    Quoted message said:

    Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his


    wife

    Quoted message said:

    and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning


    against

    Quoted message said:

    more gifted opponents.

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

  4. Sierraman, from <[email hidden]>,

    in news: said:

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    If you would have a slight idea of the race conditions at the age of
    Coppi and Bartali you would already know the reply.

    --
    ale
    http://www.sen.it
    rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
    quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet

  5. "Alessandro Riolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Sierraman, from <[email hidden]>,

    in news: said:

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    If you would have a slight idea of the race conditions at the age of
    Coppi and Bartali you would already know the reply.

    So your subjective opinion is strictly based on race conditions? Does
    winning a third of the races you enter count for much?

    Quoted message said:


    --
    ale
    http://www.sen.it
    rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
    quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet

  6. Sierraman said:

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    This thread is titled 'rivalry', and given that Merckx didn't really
    *have* any...

    --
    David N. Welton
    Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
    Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
    Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
    Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/

  7. "David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sierraman said:

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    This thread is titled 'rivalry', and given that Merckx didn't really
    *have* any...

    Argubly he had some, I could name half a dozen or so. Even so, this subject
    has been on rbr a few times, but like always most just beat around the bush
    and yet to offer a strong case why Coppi and Bartali were greater then
    Merckx. Most agree Merckx was the greatest but those who support Coppi and
    Bartali have never offered more then one liners as to why. As for me, I have
    no interest in debating it myself but would like to hear more then one
    liners from the Coppi, Bartali crowd as to (why) Coppi and Bartali were
    greater then Merckx.

    Quoted message said:


    --
    David N. Welton
    Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
    Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
    Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
    Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/

  8. [email hidden] (Davide Tosi) wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Trapper said:

    Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    No way.

    Ali v. Frazier, the great boxing trilogy of the 1970's with Frazier winning
    the first match and Ali the second two. These fights were epic struggles. I
    can think of no other sporting rivalry that involves two people locked in a
    direct collision of bodies and wills.

  9. [email hidden] (Davide Tosi) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Sierraman said:

    "Davide Tosi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Trapper" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    No way.
    For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    least really respective of each other off court.

    To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal"😉 and two
    that represent very different lifestyles.

    If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a


    lot

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of


    him.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was


    very

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his


    thoughts.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his


    wife

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning


    against

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more gifted opponents.

    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    I didn't say that.
    If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    Agreed!
    Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    spoken on table.

  10. (Kenny) said:
    Quoted message said:

    I didn't say that.
    If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    Agreed!
    Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    spoken on table.

    The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.

    The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    all.

    --
    le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    http://petition.eurolinux.org ; http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    Please address all replies to the list

  11. "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (Kenny) said:
    Quoted message said:

    I didn't say that.
    If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    Agreed!
    Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    spoken on table.

    The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.

    The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    all.

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx? Can
    there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi camp?

    Quoted message said:


    --
    le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:

    Please address all replies to the list

  12. "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<TK2dnQ_xwKv_nkLdRVn->

    Quoted message said:

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?

    dumbass, the question was:what was the greatest rivalry ?

    even tosi agrees merckx was the most dominant - but that's not what
    the discussion is about.

  13. "Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<TK2dnQ_xwKv_nkLdRVn->

    Quoted message said:

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?

    dumbass, the question was:what was the greatest rivalry ?

    Dumbass, I changed the subject. It close enough to inquire into.

    Quoted message said:


    even tosi agrees merckx was the most dominant - but that's not what
    the discussion is about.

  14. "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (Kenny) said:

    > I didn't say that.
    > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    Agreed!
    Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    spoken on table.

    The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.

    The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    all.

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx? Can
    there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi camp?

    Quoted message said:


    --
    le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:

    Please address all replies to the list

    Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    white. Died young. etc
    Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

  15. "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Kenny) writes:

    > > I didn't say that.
    > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:

    > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the


    most

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    >
    > Agreed!
    > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by


    their

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > spoken on table.

    The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.

    The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    all.

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?


    Can

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi


    camp?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    --
    le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:

    Please address all replies to the list

    Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    white. Died young. etc
    Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had to do
    with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also won
    nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other is
    hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere about
    why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

  16. "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > [email hidden] (Kenny) writes:
    >
    > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the


    most

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > >
    > > Agreed!
    > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by


    their

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > > spoken on table.
    >
    > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.
    >
    > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > all.

    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?


    Can

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi


    camp?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    > --
    > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Please address all replies to the list

    Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    white. Died young. etc
    Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had to do
    with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also won
    nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other is
    hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere about
    why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

    That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.

  17. "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    > "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >



    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > [email hidden] (Kenny) writes:
    > >
    > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:

    > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76,


    that is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not

    Quoted message said:

    > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In


    fact

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    when

    Quoted message said:

    > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    most

    Quoted message said:

    > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > >
    > > > Agreed!
    > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters


    clans

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of

    Quoted message said:

    > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan


    versus

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by


    their

    Quoted message said:

    > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > spoken on table.
    > >
    > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either,


    particularly

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:

    > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the


    support.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > >
    > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact


    win

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    them

    Quoted message said:

    > > all.
    >
    > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then


    Merckx?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Can

    Quoted message said:

    > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the


    Coppi

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    camp?

    Quoted message said:

    > >
    > > --
    > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:

    > > Please address all replies to the list

    Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    white. Died young. etc
    Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had


    to do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also


    won

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere


    about

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

    That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.

    I always thought Merckx was the best, but others who say no, it's Coppi,
    Bartali and then and (only then) comes Merckx is very perplexing to me. What
    would support such a powerful statement like that? What are they thinking?

  18. "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > "Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > >


    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > [email hidden] (Kenny) writes:
    > > >
    > > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years


    immediately

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76,


    that is
    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In


    fact
    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even


    the
    most

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > > >
    > > > > Agreed!
    > > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters


    clans
    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan


    versus

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by


    their

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't


    be

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > > spoken on table.
    > > >
    > > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either,


    particularly
    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the


    support.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > >
    > > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik


    as
    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact


    win
    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > all.
    > >
    > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then


    Merckx?
    Can

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the


    Coppi
    camp?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;


    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > > Please address all replies to the list
    >
    > Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    > mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    > white. Died young. etc
    > Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    > did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    > 40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    > same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had


    to do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also


    won

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere


    about

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

    That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.

    I always thought Merckx was the best,


    You don't THINK Merckx is the best, Merckx IS the best.

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