US Doping coverup

"Veloflash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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I have never seen any reports that hGH makes anything happen.

Geez, Thomas, are you doubting again?

Ever heard of hGH reducing body fat and increasing lean muscle? Increasing strength and
thereby power?

I haven't (go read Kevin Yarasheski's now-classic study).

Andy Coggan

[email hidden] (chiefhiawatha) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
(Veloflash) wrote:

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There's no way you can look at the face of Carl Lewis and see a case if acromegaly. Sorry. Trying
to be smug to Kunich sure sounds fun. Maybe you need to think of other things to do.

ChiefHiawatha:

It was a talking point in athletic circles for years, Chief, how Carl's features had changed
slightly over the years. I suppose it would be fair game to make reference to Ben Johnson or
Lindford Christie but not to a fellow American.

You would be better served doing other things too. Maybe Minnehaha.

Andy Coggan: I stand corrected if that is the case. My info came from a medical site which I shall
delete from my list now.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

(Veloflash) said:

It was a talking point in athletic circles for years, Chief, how Carl's features had changed
slightly over the years. I suppose it would be fair game to make reference to Ben Johnson or
Lindford Christie but not to a fellow American.

Actually, it wouln't be fair for YOU to do that to Christie, or Johnson, or Lewis, or Sammy Sosa.
The reason is that you are not trained in that field. You have received no training to diagnose
facial changes supposedly brought on by human growth hormone abuse.

"chiefhiawatha" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

(Veloflash) said:

It was a talking point in athletic circles for years, Chief, how Carl's features had changed
slightly over the years. I suppose it would be fair game to make reference to Ben Johnson or
Lindford Christie but not to a fellow American.

Actually, it wouln't be fair for YOU to do that to Christie, or Johnson, or Lewis, or Sammy Sosa.
The reason is that you are not trained in that field. You have received no training to diagnose
facial changes supposedly brought on by human growth hormone abuse.

But he has carefully trained himself to abuse others. If you look at Carl's face there's no such
distortions as he has claimed. All it takes is a look at the pictures.

hGH has never shown to actually achieve what the claims of the body builders. Sure, no one was
stupid enough to design a controlled study with the sorts of dangeous overdoses of hGH that body
builders use, but body builders have always had absolutely fantastic claims for all sorts of
medications that are absolutely known not to have any effects at all.

It should be noted that the material that supposedly tripped the "doping" string was ephedrine and
we discussed that at length before and my opinion then as now was that A) It has no effect on
performance and 2) it is easy to detect and 3) it is accidently available from many sources ranging
from marked bottles of cold remedies to UNMARKED "vitamin" tablets and herbal teas. This article was
nothing but a crude attempt to discredit the Olympic Committee and probably for a political reason.

Johnson should have been talked about. Not only was he using an extremely potent and dangerous
steroid but he was so stupid that he was using it in competition. Just how dumb can you get?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"chiefhiawatha" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Chiefhiawatha and T Kunich:

Really shooting from the hips in frustration when you claim to have some knowledge about my
background to state I am not trained to arrive at certain conclusions. You would be marked down in a
debate with that line without producing evidence.

Thomas, why do you think the IOC was reluctant to provide funding to trial hGh anti doping tests to
have it available for the last Olympics? The same reason why the EPO blood test was made ineffective
by including the urine test and an athlete had to fail both. If the hGh test came through trials
successfully it would have been the cause of a lack of new records or near records in power events
and the possibility of increased DQ's and athletes despatched personae non grata. The IOC is in the
game for profit and top class performances means more bums on seats, greater interest equating to
higher value sponsorships and sale of TV rights.

In you last post, Thomas, you claimed there were no known (to you) detrimental side effects to hGh.
You were corrected.

Now you go off and claim that hGH provides no benefits to athletes. Maybe you can tell that to the
Chinese swimming team with their Amazonian world record holding female sprinters who were caught
with phials of hGH before the World Championships several years ago.

Johnson was not smart to use a traceable and banned performance enhancing drug. The smarter athletes
were using hGh. In athletic circles it was so prevalent in Atlanta in 1996 that those games became
known as the hGH games.

In relation to the changing portrait of Carl Lewis, tell us the before and after years you are using
as the basis to refute the claim of change. Or is this another unsubstantiated claim from you that
characterizes your posts.

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"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Veloflash)

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It was a talking point in athletic circles for years, Chief, how Carl's features had changed
slightly over the years. I suppose it would be fair game to make reference to Ben Johnson or
Lindford Christie but not to a fellow American.

Actually, it wouln't be fair for YOU to do that to Christie, or Johnson, or Lewis, or Sammy
Sosa. The reason is that you are not trained in that field. You have received no training to
diagnose facial changes supposedly brought on by human growth hormone abuse.

But he has carefully trained himself to abuse others. If you look at Carl's face there's no such
distortions as he has claimed. All it takes is a look at the pictures.

hGH has never shown to actually achieve what the claims of the body builders. Sure, no one was
stupid enough to design a controlled study with the sorts of dangeous overdoses of hGH that body
builders use, but body builders have always had absolutely fantastic claims for all sorts of
medications that are absolutely known not to have any effects at all.

It should be noted that the material that supposedly tripped the "doping" string was ephedrine and
we discussed that at length before and my opinion then as now was that A) It has no effect on
performance and 2) it is easy to detect and 3) it is accidently available from many sources
ranging from marked bottles of cold remedies to UNMARKED "vitamin" tablets and herbal teas. This
article was nothing but a crude attempt to discredit the Olympic Committee and probably for a
political reason.

Johnson should have been talked about. Not only was he using an extremely potent and dangerous
steroid but he was so stupid that he was using it in competition. Just how dumb can you get?

I am willing to bet that American athletes are tested more often than athletes of any other single
country. USADA and WADA both test US athletes (ask Alison Dunlap and Mari Holden how often they
get tested).

"Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I'm not surprised this kind of stories are published. It's known worldwide that the USA has a very
lax attitude concerning doping. It rises questions if associations like the NBA don't allow
dopingtests and that's ok for the govermental organs who fight against doping. Does this mean the
NBA has something to hide? Or does this mean there really is no anti-doping policy in the US? Or
is it the fact that American athletes (representing the most powerful nation on eart) are expected
to be the best (or that they have to win the most olympic medals) that causes this lax attitude
(even toleration?) against doping. If those athletes were as much tested as cyclists, the list of
positive medal winning doping-sinners should be a lot longer.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I am willing to bet that American athletes are tested more often than athletes of any other single
country. USADA and WADA both test US

athletes

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(ask Alison Dunlap and Mari Holden how often they get tested).

I'm sure there are other countries testing their athletes more than the US - They need to make sure
they've got enough dope in them :-)

-T

"Veloflash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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"chiefhiawatha" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Chiefhiawatha and T Kunich: Really shooting from the hips in frustration when you claim to have
some knowledge about my background to state I am not trained to

arrive

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at certain conclusions. You would be marked down in a debate with

that

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line without producing evidence.

As an anonymous wuss I'm not likely to take your word of your competence very seriously.

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Thomas, why do you think the IOC was reluctant to provide funding to trial hGh anti doping tests
to have it available for the last Olympics? The same reason why the EPO blood test was made

ineffective

Quoted message said:

by including the urine test and an athlete had to fail both. If the hGh test came through trials
successfully it would have been the

cause

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of a lack of new records or near records in power events and the possibility of increased DQ's and
athletes despatched personae non grata. The IOC is in the game for profit and top class
performances means more bums on seats, greater interest equating to higher value sponsorships and
sale of TV rights.

Conspiracy, conspiracy! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!

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In you last post, Thomas, you claimed there were no known (to you) detrimental side effects to
hGh. You were corrected.

Excuse me, but we were discussing performance enhancing effects. If you have to strain so hard to
argue with my postings that you have to lie about it perhaps you ought to think about what you're
doing and why.

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Now you go off and claim that hGH provides no benefits to athletes. Maybe you can tell that to the
Chinese swimming team with their Amazonian world record holding female sprinters who were caught
with phials of hGH before the World Championships several years ago.

Surely you can supply information via scientific studies then? Didn't Coggan just contradict you and
didn't you just appologize? Have you discovered something else in the last couple of days?

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Johnson was not smart to use a traceable and banned performance enhancing drug. The smarter
athletes were using hGh. In athletic circles it was so prevalent in Atlanta in 1996 that
those games

became

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known as the hGH games.

My guess is that they were all using vitamins as well. Can you then tell us that they all won
because of the vitamins they were taking? For years they have had fad drugs that were supposed
to provide the ultimate performance in athletes. Why do you suppose these drugs changed every
few years?

The OIC has outlawed MANY drugs that we know have no performance enhancing effects and yet most of
them were touted as being the route to an instant win.

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In relation to the changing portrait of Carl Lewis, tell us the

before

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and after years you are using as the basis to refute the claim of change. Or is this another
unsubstantiated claim from you that characterizes your posts.

I have seen photos of Carl Lewis over the years. He has aged normally to my estimate. I note that
you surely haven't referenced any photos which would back up your claims.

Tom Kunich said:

I have seen photos of Carl Lewis over the years. He has aged normally to my estimate. I note that
you surely haven't referenced any photos which would back up your claims.

News here today was that he admitted to the positive test for stimulants at US Olympic trials in
1984. He also tested positive for alcohol last weekend...oops.

A bit more digging on the 1984 Seoul Olympics 100m final reveals:

"5th ­ Dennis Mitchell (US) Tested positive for high levels of testosterone in 1999. Banned for two

beers..."

Could this be who is also responsible for Tammy Thomas' positive test too?

She looks like about a 6-beer woman...

Stewart Fleming said:

A bit more digging on the 1984 Seoul Olympics 100m final reveals:

"5th ­ Dennis Mitchell (US)

Dennis Mitchell: AKA "Dennis the Menace"

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Tested positive for high levels of testosterone in 1999. Banned for two

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beers..."

Could this be who is also responsible for Tammy Thomas' positive test too?

She looks like about a 6-beer woman...

Man, you Ne Zealanders should learn to drink beer like the Aussies. Tammy looks like a case load
gal to me.

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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A bit more digging on the 1984 Seoul Olympics 100m final reveals:

"5th ­ Dennis Mitchell (US) Tested positive for high levels of testosterone in 1999. Banned for

two

six

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beers..."

Could this be who is also responsible for Tammy Thomas' positive

test too?

Quoted message said:

She looks like about a 6-beer woman...

Tom Kunich said:

Man, you Ne Zealanders should learn to drink beer like the Aussies. Tammy looks like a case load
gal to me.

You would have to drink a case load of Aussie beer for it to have any effect. Please don't mention
non-intoxicating products in a doping thread

:-)
STF

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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I am willing to bet that American athletes are tested more often than athletes of any other single
country. USADA and WADA both test US athletes (ask Alison Dunlap and Mari Holden how often they
get tested).

Perhaps. But what's the use of testing athletes if positive cases don't get punished?

"Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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I am willing to bet that American athletes are tested more often

than

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athletes of any other single country. USADA and WADA both test US

athletes

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(ask Alison Dunlap and Mari Holden how often they get tested).

Perhaps. But what's the use of testing athletes if positive cases don't get punished?

Well, for one thing you have to calibrate the tests. How the hell do you know that you have to allow
for some levels of ephidrine unless you discover, in the field, that athletes will slip and take a
cold remedy the day before a race because they are feeling some sniffles that turns out to be hay
fever? That is really the crux of the matter in this "expose".

Again -- one of the major problems is that they started putting drugs on the list wholesale usually
with not the slightest evidence that they would cause any performance enhancement. And that tended
to make athletes think that there was something to the rumors about such stupid drugs as ephidrine
and the whole list of drugs that increase resting heart rate.

They should take most of those off of the list and end the cache those drugs have from being
on the list.

Stewart Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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Tom Kunich said:

Man, you Ne Zealanders should learn to drink beer like the Aussies. Tammy looks like a case load
gal to me.

You would have to drink a case load of Aussie beer for it to have any effect. Please don't mention
non-intoxicating products in a doping thread

:-)
STF

The mistake you are making Stewart is to assume that the stuff that is manufactured by Lion Nathan
(isn't that a NZ company?) or CUB is representative of all Australian beer. Coopers 5.6% alcohol by
volume. Boags 4.8%...... Garry Allen prepared to consider products manufactured in NZ as Australian
made for the purposes of testing.

Garry Allen said:

The mistake you are making Stewart is to assume that the stuff that is manufactured by Lion Nathan
(isn't that a NZ company?) or CUB is

Lion Nathan - according to their Web site "Australian based". I can't remember if they are
'Stralian-owned or just another corporate refugee from here. They bought Montana, a major NZ wine
manufacturer so it's not all bad news.

We can't even get away with saying that Aussie beer tastes like horse [censored] because someone told them
that the response should be: "Drink much horse [censored] over there do you?"

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prepared to consider products manufactured in NZ as Australian made for the purposes of testing.

You have to go south for the good stuff: Monteith's, Speights Old Dark etc. Good source of
carbohydrates, you will often see runners and cyclists here carbo loading after the race. Oh,
hang on...

To go back to the original thread...the runner who finished LAST in the 1984 Seoul 100m pulled his
hamstring, finished in 12.something seconds and later tested positive too. STF