Topo Software is Cool!

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades and
elevation gains of all my favorite rides.

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the road
vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads very closely.

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades and
elevation gains of all my favorite rides.

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the road
vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads very closely.

"Phfffffffffff" <----- sound of my balloon popping 🙂

I've used DeLorme for three years now, and I love it too. It not only
does what you stated, but it also prints out a rout including mileage.
Both between turns and total. I find it a simple matter to copy paste
this info into my route slips for club rides.

Did you know that you can also download the latitude and longitude
points from your GPS unit (if it records them) into Topo and it will
create a trail route based on them? I think this is great for Mountain
bikers!

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Quoted message said:

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the road
vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads very closely.

I would agree. I've found National Geographic's TOPO! to be much more
accurate. I have not gotten used to DeLorme's user interface yet. It seems
counter-intuitive.

For all of the data that it crunches, it is a fairly impressive package,
however.

-Bob F.

Ken wrote:
:: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:: news:[email hidden]:
::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
::: cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
::: interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades
::: and elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
::
:: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
:: inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the
:: road vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads
:: very closely.

Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually measured "road
vectors" while following a map from it's database?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken wrote:
:: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:: news:[email hidden]:
::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
::: cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
::: interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades
::: and elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
::
:: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
:: inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the
:: road vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads
:: very closely.

Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually measured

"road

Quoted message said:

vectors" while following a map from it's database?

Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last section of the
Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all the pros rode a week or so ago.
According to Topo 5.0, it has stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.

I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well. It seems to be
pretty good at giving an average gradient for a climb. But some of the
individual slopes along the route it does exaggerate quite wildly.

Bob C.

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is cool.
Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The interface
isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades and elevation

gains

Quoted message said:

of all my favorite rides.

Is there a program out there that does the same thing with a more powerful
and user friendly interface?

Question for Topo users. If I have a route that crosses over itself ... say
a large figure 8 ... how do I make it do that? As soon as you tell it to
calculate, it looks for the quickest or shortest way and eliminates the loop
or alters it ... every single time. I can't make it do any course where the
course crosses over itself.

Any advice (besides, "don't do routes that cross over themselves"😉?

Bob C.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually measured "road
vectors" while following a map from it's database?

I've used DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 to profile certain hills that I ride
regularly. Because the vectors do not follow the actual road, they invent
many phantom descents that I know do not exist because the road is entirely
uphill. Sometimes the cumulative elevation gain reported by the program is
literally double the real elevation gain. Road grades are similar bogus for
short distances.

"psycholist" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Question for Topo users. If I have a route that crosses over itself ...
say a large figure 8 ... how do I make it do that? As soon as you tell
it to calculate, it looks for the quickest or shortest way and eliminates
the loop or alters it ... every single time. I can't make it do any
course where the course crosses over itself.

You can put "vias" or "stops" along specific roads you want in the route.
That prevents the program from chosing the wrong roads, or in my area, roads
that simply do not exist. Some of them might have existed 30 years ago, but
there are many roads in the DeLorme database that I cannot find on any paper
map or even when visiting the area myself.

Ken wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:: news:[email hidden]:
::: Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually
::: measured "road vectors" while following a map from it's database?
::
:: I've used DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 to profile certain hills that I ride
:: regularly. Because the vectors do not follow the actual road, they
:: invent many phantom descents that I know do not exist because the
:: road is entirely uphill. Sometimes the cumulative elevation gain
:: reported by the program is literally double the real elevation gain.
:: Road grades are similar bogus for short distances.

Thanks....

psycholist wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: Ken wrote:
::::: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
::::: news:[email hidden]:
:::::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This
:::::: thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the
:::::: profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's been fun
:::::: finding all the grades and elevation gains of all my favorite
:::::: rides.
:::::
::::: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be
::::: wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too
::::: bad, but the road vectors in their database do not follow the
::::: real world roads very closely.
:::
::: Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually
::: measured "road vectors" while following a map from it's database?
:::
::
:: Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last section of
:: the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all the pros rode a week or
:: so ago. According to Topo 5.0, it has stretches of 47% grade. I
:: don't think so.
::
:: I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well. It seems
:: to be pretty good at giving an average gradient for a climb. But
:: some of the individual slopes along the route it does exaggerate
:: quite wildly.

Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for their database?

Bestest Handsander said:

Ken said:

I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the road
vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads very closely.

"Phfffffffffff" <----- sound of my balloon popping 🙂

It's not that bad. I've used TopoUSA 4.0 extensively to map out big
rides, then I ride the route to verify it. The mileage is quite
accurate, but the accumulated vertical reads high by about 30%.
That's easy to adjust for.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Roger Zoul said:

psycholist said:

Quoted message said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Ken wrote:
>>> "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
>>> news:[email hidden]:
>>>> I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This
>>>> thing is cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the
>>>> profile. The interface isn't the best, but it's been fun
>>>> finding all the grades and elevation gains of all my favorite
>>>> rides.
>>>
>>> I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be
>>> wildly inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too
>>> bad, but the road vectors in their database do not follow the
>>> real world roads very closely.
>
> Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually
> measured "road vectors" while following a map from it's database?
>

Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last section of
the Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all the pros rode a week or
so ago. According to Topo 5.0, it has stretches of 47% grade. I
don't think so.

I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well. It seems
to be pretty good at giving an average gradient for a climb. But
some of the individual slopes along the route it does exaggerate
quite wildly.

Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for their
database?

I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo info for roads, and
that it was in the GIS database(s). All companies like DeLorme would have to do
is pull it out. If it's not in the GIS systems, I can't imagine there's not a
three dimensional plot *somewhere* by now. So this is interesting indeed.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for their
database?

I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo info for roads, and
that it was in the GIS database(s). All companies like DeLorme would have to do
is pull it out. If it's not in the GIS systems, I can't imagine there's not a
three dimensional plot *somewhere* by now.

Close.

My understanding is the USGS provides publically available elevation data,
but it is not tied to roads, but instead is provided as grid with each node
being the data point.

Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road to the adjacent
grid nodes to estimate the elevation of the road.

This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

When you look closely at a Topo road you can see it is made up of straight line
segments. If you are familiar with the road you know it curves. Line segments
are not always good approximations for curves, so you have inaccuracies. This
kind of inaccuracy is largest on winding mountainous roads. Topo just isn't
made to give us hill climbers the detailed data we would like.

Using stragiht line segment approximations enables Topo to get its database on 5
CDs. Doubling the accuracy requires 25 CDs because lines are one dimensional
but areas (maps) are two dimensional.

psycholist said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken wrote:
:: "Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:: news:[email hidden]:
::: I just picked up DeLorme Topo from eBay for $7 bucks. This thing is
::: cool. Mark a route, view it in 3d, and then check the profile. The
::: interface isn't the best, but it's been fun finding all the grades
::: and elevation gains of all my favorite rides.
::
:: I've found the grades and elevation gains in the program to be wildly
:: inaccurate. Elevations at particular points aren't too bad, but the
:: road vectors in their database do not follow the real world roads
:: very closely.

Can you explain how you know this? I mean, have you actually measured

"road

Quoted message said:

vectors" while following a map from it's database?

Well, I just got DeLorme Topo 5.0 and I profiled the last section of the
Brasstown Bald climb which Lance and all the pros rode a week or so ago.
According to Topo 5.0, it has stretches of 47% grade. I don't think so.

I've checked out some climbs I do regularly and know well. It seems to be
pretty good at giving an average gradient for a climb. But some of the
individual slopes along the route it does exaggerate quite wildly.

Bob C.

Chris Neary wrote:
:::: Interesting...how do you suppose they obtain the data for their
:::: database?
:::
::: I always assumed the government had pretty accurate topo info for
::: roads, and that it was in the GIS database(s). All companies like
::: DeLorme would have to do is pull it out. If it's not in the GIS
::: systems, I can't imagine there's not a three dimensional plot
::: *somewhere* by now.
::
:: Close.
::
:: My understanding is the USGS provides publically available elevation
:: data,
:: but it is not tied to roads, but instead is provided as grid with
:: each node being the data point.
::
:: Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road to the
:: adjacent
:: grid nodes to estimate the elevation of the road.
::
:: This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

Ah....given that info, it might be reasonable to say that the topo software
does a decent enough job given the task at hand...

Chris Neary <[email hidden] > wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road to the
adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation of the road.

The problem with DeLorme Topo USA 4.0 is that their road data does not
closely follow the actual road path. They may not pick the "nearest" grid
node to the actual road, but instead pick on several nodes away.

Chris Neary said:

My understanding is the USGS provides publically available elevation
data, but it is not tied to roads, but instead is provided as grid
with each node being the data point.

Commercial mapping software must interpolate from the road to the
adjacent grid nodes to estimate the elevation of the road.

This approach works less well as the terrain steepens.

This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still interpolating anything,
w/ three dimensional plots of the actual roads perhaps being available in GIS
databases.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

This makes sense. However, I'm surprised they're still interpolating anything,
w/ three dimensional plots of the actual roads perhaps being available in GIS
databases.

There's a version of Topo available for use with the Computrainer
(http://www.computrainer.com), and the problem is well known. Topo has
the topo data, and the routes of the roads, but roads often don't follow
the terrain. Cuts are made through hills, bridges over valleys, and
that adds up. The Computrainer version of Topo has a "bridging" feature
that lets you correct this manually. I've tested this on local rides,
and there are some notable up-and-downs on routes that I know are not
that way in real life.

If there's true topo data for the roads themselves, it's not in Topo.
It would probably increase the database size (possibly a lot), without
increasing sales of the program much.

--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA