Re: great article on mountain bikes

Being a usenetter for 10 years now, I have always believed its good
netiquette to lurk for a while when you're new in a group, get to know whats
going on before you chip in.

Well I need to break my own rule and I will tell you why.

I used to frequent RBOR many years ago in the days before it was moderated
and became useless.
I almost stopped cycling 3 years ago because of back problems but am now
getting back into it this year.

For all of you folks who were not there back in the old days I can tell you
that Vandeman was there. He was a mere troll then like he still is today,
doing nothing more than disrupting what appears to be an otherwise excellent
NG. I will give him 'credit' for killing RBOR by forcing it into moderation.
Is that what he's going to do here?

This self styled champion of the environment can't be spending too much time
out there appreciating nature or chronicling the terrible things us MTBrs
are doing because he seems to be always in front of a computer looking for
people to criticize, with the same old shtick as years ago. Nothing has
changed with this guy.

Don't debate with Vandeman its useless, he has a deep seated hatred for
mountain bikers which goes way beyond objectivity, reason or normality.

Hey folks other than this kind of shtuff, it looks like a great NG.

It good to get back into the sport, need some new pants, a bit of bike
maintenance, new shoes and we're off and cycling !!!

Sniffinvinyl

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700 said:

Mr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

Quoted message said:

First off, I must say that

I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
bicycle to enjoy nature.

Then leave it at the trail head.

Quoted message said:

I do not believe in driving a

fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
to drive their vehicle?

Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....

Quoted message said:

As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with

the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
carnage:

http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=10

52325973

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived

and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!

Sad, but irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

I digress.

That's right.

Quoted message said:

The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I

must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.

And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up

"non

Quoted message said:

sequitur" in the dictionary.

Quoted message said:

In Joaquin Miller

park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves.

This

Quoted message said:

is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
so admire.

Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped

out by

Quoted message said:

the mountain bikers).

Quoted message said:

Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers

just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of

course,

Quoted message said:

is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
they wander off trail much more frequently.

That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they

do

Quoted message said:

that, but who does it more is an open question.

Quoted message said:

You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native

plants

Quoted message said:

(chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
will have a pile of weeds within a century.

There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what

we do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The star thistle, for example,

was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government,

the

Quoted message said:

controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native

california

Quoted message said:

grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline.

Think

Quoted message said:

of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing

everything

Quoted message said:

sight!

So what?

Quoted message said:

I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike

tires

Quoted message said:

carry
mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much

further,

Quoted message said:

because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal

force,

Quoted message said:

where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.

BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂

Quoted message said:

I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but

think

Quoted message said:

about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great

discovery.

Quoted message said:

Mabey
even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel

is the

Quoted message said:

most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots,

hooves, or

Quoted message said:

even bulldozers.

That's just not true, which I think you well know.

Quoted message said:

I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my

brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible.

We'd

Quoted message said:

kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to

pick

Quoted message said:

wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on

and

Quoted message said:

on.
I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.

That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding,

especially

Quoted message said:

when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....

Quoted message said:

Please cogitate,

Rolfe Horn

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

SniffinVinyl said:

Being a usenetter for 10 years now,

You should be able to limit crossposts, and use a killfile! And you should
have graduated to a better newsreader too....
No offense, just my observation.

Welcome back!

Mike Vandeman said:

At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700 said:

Mr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

Quoted message said:

First off, I must say that

I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
bicycle to enjoy nature.

Then leave it at the trail head.

Quoted message said:

I do not believe in driving a

fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
to drive their vehicle?

Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with

the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
carnage:

Quoted message said:

http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=1052325973

Quoted message said:

I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived

and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!

Sad, but irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

I digress.

That's right.

Quoted message said:

The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I

must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.

And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up "non
sequitur" in the dictionary.

Hikers are "your" people... Aren't you the slightest bit concerned that they are not
all innocent. Hmmm, just like mt bikers... not all of them are guilty. You hold the
entire bunch to the fire for the actions of a few.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In Joaquin Miller

park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves. This
is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
so admire.

Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped out by
the mountain bikers).

"ripped out by mountain bikers"... Got proof? Or are we just supposed to be blamed for
everything without question...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers

just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of course,
is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
they wander off trail much more frequently.

That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they do
that, but who does it more is an open question.

I thought you said it was proven cyclists did it more... That is what you keep saying.
Now it is an open question? Better go find another "study" that shows your numbers the
way you want them...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native plants

(chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
will have a pile of weeds within a century.

There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what we do.

Are humans considered exotic? You say we don't belong there, so we must be. Since there
is no solution, you can go away now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The star thistle, for example,

was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government, the
controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native california
grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline. Think
of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing everything
sight!

So what?

Quoted message said:

I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike tires

carry
mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much further,
because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal force,
where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.

BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂

Quoted message said:

I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but think

about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great discovery.
Mabey
even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel is the
most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots, hooves, or
even bulldozers.

That's just not true, which I think you well know.

Bike tires are less impactful than bulldozers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my

brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible. We'd
kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to pick
wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on and
on.
I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.

That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding, especially
when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....

IMPOSSIBLE??? Hardly... It is a matter of balancing the braking between the front and
rear wheels. Tires MAY skid on occassion... just like the slipping of hiking boots.
However, since you have chosen to vilify an entire group (off road cyclists) with
innuendo and name-calling, while letting your own (hikers) get a "pass", you won't care
about how much damage hikers can do. It is easier for you to attack a group you are not
a part of rather than deal with the problems your own group causes. Perhaps you may have
some credibility if you started cleaning your own back yard first.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please cogitate,

Rolfe Horn

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:22:00 -0400, "SniffinVinyl" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..Being a usenetter for 10 years now, I have always believed its good
..netiquette to lurk for a while when you're new in a group, get to know whats
..going on before you chip in.
..
..Well I need to break my own rule and I will tell you why.
..
..I used to frequent RBOR many years ago in the days before it was moderated
..and became useless.
..I almost stopped cycling 3 years ago because of back problems but am now
..getting back into it this year.
..
..For all of you folks who were not there back in the old days I can tell you
..that Vandeman was there. He was a mere troll then like he still is today,
..doing nothing more than disrupting what appears to be an otherwise excellent
..NG. I will give him 'credit' for killing RBOR by forcing it into moderation.

What a LIAR! Nobody "forced" you to moderate (censor) it. If anyone caused it,
it was mountain bikers like you, who don't want to hear the truth.

..Is that what he's going to do here?
..
..This self styled champion of the environment can't be spending too much time
..out there appreciating nature or chronicling the terrible things us MTBrs
..are doing because he seems to be always in front of a computer looking for
..people to criticize, with the same old shtick as years ago. Nothing has
..changed with this guy.
..
..Don't debate with Vandeman its useless, he has a deep seated hatred for
..mountain bikers which goes way beyond objectivity, reason or normality.

Lying again! I don't hate mountain bikers. How can you hate anything so pitiful?
I hate mountain BIKING. DUH!

..Hey folks other than this kind of shtuff, it looks like a great NG.

Lying again. Your nose is growing. But what can you expect from someone afraid
to use his real name?!

..It good to get back into the sport, need some new pants, a bit of bike
..maintenance, new shoes and we're off and cycling !!!
..
..
..Sniffinvinyl

How appropriate.

.."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
..news:[email hidden]...
..> At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700, Rolfe Horn wrote:
..> >Mr. Vandeman,
..>
..> >I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:
..>
..>
..> >>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
..>
..> >First off, I must say that
..> I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
..> that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
..> are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
..> bicycle to enjoy nature.
..>
..>
..> Then leave it at the trail head.
..>
..>
..> >I do not believe in driving a
..> fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
..> Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
..> guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
..> Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
..> from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
..> to drive their vehicle?
..>
..>
..> Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....
..>
..>
..> >As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with
..> the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
..> I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
..> as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
..> service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
..> moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
..> carnage:
..>
..>
..>http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=10
..52325973
..>
..> >I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived
..> and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
..> bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!
..>
..>
..> Sad, but irrelevant.
..>
..>
..> >I digress.
..>
..> That's right.
..>
..> >The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I
..> must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
..> your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
..> bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.
..>
..>
..> And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up
.."non
..> sequitur" in the dictionary.
..>
..>
..> > In Joaquin Miller
..> park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves.
..This
..> is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
..> eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
..> so admire.
..>
..>
..> Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped
..out by
..> the mountain bikers).
..>
..>
..> >Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers
..> just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of
..course,
..> is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
..> they wander off trail much more frequently.
..>
..>
..> That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they
..do
..> that, but who does it more is an open question.
..>
..>
..> >You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native
..plants
..> (chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
..> will have a pile of weeds within a century.
..>
..>
..> There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what
..we do.
..>
..>
..> > The star thistle, for example,
..> was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government,
..the
..> controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native
..california
..> grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline.
..Think
..> of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing
..everything
..> sight!
..>
..>
..> So what?
..>
..>
..> >I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike
..tires
..> carry
..> mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much
..further,
..> because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal
..force,
..> where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.
..>
..>
..> BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂
..>
..>
..> >I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but
..think
..> about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great
..discovery.
..> Mabey
..> even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel
..is the
..> most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots,
..hooves, or
..> even bulldozers.
..>
..>
..> That's just not true, which I think you well know.
..>
..>
..> > I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my
..> brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible.
..We'd
..> kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to
..pick
..> wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on
..and
..> on.
..> I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.
..>
..>
..> That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding,
..especially
..> when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....
..>
..>
..> >Please cogitate,
..>
..> Rolfe Horn
..>
..>
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:27:28 -0400, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
wrote:

..
..
..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..
..> At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700, Rolfe Horn wrote:
..> >Mr. Vandeman,
..>
..> >I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:
..>
..> >>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
..>
..> >First off, I must say that
..> I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
..> that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
..> are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
..> bicycle to enjoy nature.
..>
..> Then leave it at the trail head.
..>
..> >I do not believe in driving a
..> fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
..> Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
..> guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
..> Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
..> from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
..> to drive their vehicle?
..>
..> Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....
..
..>
..> >As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with
..> the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
..> I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
..> as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
..> service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
..> moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
..> carnage:
..>
..> >http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=1052325973
..>
..> >I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived
..> and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
..> bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!
..>
..> Sad, but irrelevant.
..>
..> >I digress.
..>
..> That's right.
..>
..> >The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I
..> must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
..> your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
..> bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.
..>
..> And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up "non
..> sequitur" in the dictionary.
..
..Hikers are "your" people... Aren't you the slightest bit concerned that they are not
..all innocent.

Of course. However, I am the one advocating human-free habitat YOU aren't!
Hypocrite.

Hmmm, just like mt bikers... not all of them are guilty. You hold the
..entire bunch to the fire for the actions of a few.

Because all of them are human, and hence drive wildife away.

..> > In Joaquin Miller
..> park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves. This
..> is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
..> eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
..> so admire.
..>
..> Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped out by
..> the mountain bikers).
..
.."ripped out by mountain bikers"... Got proof? Or are we just supposed to be blamed for
..everything without question...
..
..>
..>
..> >Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers
..> just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of course,
..> is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
..> they wander off trail much more frequently.
..>
..> That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they do
..> that, but who does it more is an open question.
..
..I thought you said it was proven cyclists did it more...

No, liar. Learn to READ!

That is what you keep saying.
..Now it is an open question? Better go find another "study" that shows your numbers the
..way you want them...
..
..>
..>
..> >You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native plants
..> (chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
..> will have a pile of weeds within a century.
..>
..> There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what we do.
..
..Are humans considered exotic? You say we don't belong there, so we must be. Since there
..is no solution, you can go away now.

After you.

..> > The star thistle, for example,
..> was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government, the
..> controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native california
..> grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline. Think
..> of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing everything
..> sight!
..>
..> So what?
..>
..> >I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike tires
..> carry
..> mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much further,
..> because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal force,
..> where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.
..>
..> BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂
..>
..> >I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but think
..> about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great discovery.
..> Mabey
..> even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel is the
..> most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots, hooves, or
..> even bulldozers.
..>
..> That's just not true, which I think you well know.
..
..Bike tires are less impactful than bulldozers?

No, than boots.

..> > I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my
..> brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible. We'd
..> kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to pick
..> wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on and
..> on.
..> I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.
..>
..> That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding, especially
..> when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....
..
..IMPOSSIBLE??? Hardly... It is a matter of balancing the braking between the front and
..rear wheels. Tires MAY skid on occassion...

Yes, just what I said: you can't avoid skidding.

just like the slipping of hiking boots.
..However, since you have chosen to vilify an entire group (off road cyclists) with
..innuendo and name-calling, while letting your own (hikers) get a "pass",

Liar. I am the one advocating human-free habitat. YOU aren't! Hypocrite.

you won't care
..about how much damage hikers can do. It is easier for you to attack a group you are not
..a part of rather than deal with the problems your own group causes. Perhaps you may have
..some credibility if you started cleaning your own back yard first.

I do.

..> >Please cogitate,
..>
..> Rolfe Horn
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman said:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:27:28 -0400, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
wrote:

.
.
.Mike Vandeman wrote:
.
.> At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700, Rolfe Horn wrote:
.> >Mr. Vandeman,
.>
.> >I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:
.>
.> >>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
.>
.> >First off, I must say that
.> I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
.> that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
.> are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
.> bicycle to enjoy nature.
.>
.> Then leave it at the trail head.
.>
.> >I do not believe in driving a
.> fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
.> Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
.> guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
.> Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
.> from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
.> to drive their vehicle?
.>
.> Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....
.
.>
.> >As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with
.> the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
.> I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
.> as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
.> service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
.> moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
.> carnage:
.>
.> >http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=1052325973
.>
.> >I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived
.> and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
.> bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!
.>
.> Sad, but irrelevant.
.>
.> >I digress.
.>
.> That's right.
.>
.> >The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I
.> must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
.> your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
.> bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.
.>
.> And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up "non
.> sequitur" in the dictionary.
.
.Hikers are "your" people... Aren't you the slightest bit concerned that they are not
.all innocent.

Of course. However, I am the one advocating human-free habitat YOU aren't!
Hypocrite.

Advocating... fine. But YOU still go hiking into habitat, don't you?

Quoted message said:

Hmmm, just like mt bikers... not all of them are guilty. You hold the
.entire bunch to the fire for the actions of a few.

Because all of them are human, and hence drive wildife away.

.> > In Joaquin Miller
.> park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves. This
.> is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
.> eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
.> so admire.
.>
.> Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped out by
.> the mountain bikers).
.
."ripped out by mountain bikers"... Got proof? Or are we just supposed to be blamed for
.everything without question...
.
.>
.>
.> >Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers
.> just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of course,
.> is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
.> they wander off trail much more frequently.
.>
.> That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they do
.> that, but who does it more is an open question.
.
.I thought you said it was proven cyclists did it more...

No, liar. Learn to READ!

How abou you remembering what you say. You have said time and time again that mt biking is
"more hazardous" to other trail users and wildlife. EX: "You completely missed my point. Even
the most polite, well-behaved mountain biker: accelerates erosion, and drives wildlife and
other trail users out of the area."
That was just today! So either you say mt bikers are "more hazardous" or you don't... Which
is it? Don't call me a liar for pointing out what you say and how you say it.

Quoted message said:

That is what you keep saying.
.Now it is an open question? Better go find another "study" that shows your numbers the
.way you want them...
.
.>
.>
.> >You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native plants
.> (chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
.> will have a pile of weeds within a century.
.>
.> There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what we do.
.
.Are humans considered exotic? You say we don't belong there, so we must be. Since there
.is no solution, you can go away now.

After you.

Way to skip over that one....

Quoted message said:

.> > The star thistle, for example,
.> was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government, the
.> controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native california
.> grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline. Think
.> of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing everything
.> sight!
.>
.> So what?
.>
.> >I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike tires
.> carry
.> mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much further,
.> because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal force,
.> where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.
.>
.> BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂
.>
.> >I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but think
.> about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great discovery.
.> Mabey
.> even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel is the
.> most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots, hooves, or
.> even bulldozers.
.>
.> That's just not true, which I think you well know.
.
.Bike tires are less impactful than bulldozers?

No, than boots.

Not what you said. Your statement "That's just not true, which I think you well know." was a
blanket statement in response to the previous. And the previous mentioned bulldozers.

Quoted message said:

.> > I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my
.> brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible. We'd
.> kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to pick
.> wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on and
.> on.
.> I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.
.>
.> That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding, especially
.> when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....
.
.IMPOSSIBLE??? Hardly... It is a matter of balancing the braking between the front and
.rear wheels. Tires MAY skid on occassion...

Yes, just what I said: you can't avoid skidding.

just like the slipping of hiking boots.
.However, since you have chosen to vilify an entire group (off road cyclists) with
.innuendo and name-calling, while letting your own (hikers) get a "pass",

Liar. I am the one advocating human-free habitat. YOU aren't! Hypocrite.

Liar. If you wanted a human-free habitat, you would not go into the woods at all. Since you
do, your own commitment to your ideals is questionable.

Quoted message said:

you won't care
.about how much damage hikers can do. It is easier for you to attack a group you are not
.a part of rather than deal with the problems your own group causes. Perhaps you may have
.some credibility if you started cleaning your own back yard first.

I do.

Oh... I suppose that 8 year old statement gives you a feel-good blanket of accomplishment
every night....

Quoted message said:

.> >Please cogitate,
.>
.> Rolfe Horn
.>
.> ===
.> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
.> humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
.> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
.>
.> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:53:38 -0400, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
wrote:

..
..
..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..
..> On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:27:28 -0400, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .
..> .
..> .Mike Vandeman wrote:
..> .
..> .> At 01:30 AM 4/16/04 -0700, Rolfe Horn wrote:
..> .> >Mr. Vandeman,
..> .>
..> .> >I live in the Oakland Hills, which you had mentioned in your article:
..> .>
..> .> >>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
..> .>
..> .> >First off, I must say that
..> .> I enjoyed reading your article. I too, am a believer
..> .> that humans should depend less on automobiles, for cars
..> .> are a bane to the enviroment. Which is why I ride my
..> .> bicycle to enjoy nature.
..> .>
..> .> Then leave it at the trail head.
..> .>
..> .> >I do not believe in driving a
..> .> fossil fueled vehicle to witness the beauty of nature.
..> .> Time after time, I see the parking lot filled with gas
..> .> guzzling SUV's so one can bring their dog for a walk.
..> .> Why can't those lazy people just walk a couple of hours
..> .> from their home to get to the forest? Why do they have
..> .> to drive their vehicle?
..> .>
..> .> Beats me. If humanjs were rational, no one would smoke....
..> .
..> .>
..> .> >As you may notice, I have a passion similar to yours, with
..> .> the exception that I prefer to be 'lazy' and ride a bike.
..> .> I ride many legal singletracks in the Oakland hills, as well
..> .> as some fireroads. Geeze, you should have seen what the park
..> .> service did to the West Ridge fireroad this last year. Bulldozers
..> .> moved tons of cubic earth. Here is a link to see photos of the
..> .> carnage:
..> .>
..> .> >http://www.btceb.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=EBRBD;action=display;num=1052325973
..> .>
..> .> >I just feel sorry for any fish in the creeks when the rains arrived
..> .> and washed all that silt into the streams. I highly doubt that
..> .> bicycle tires could do that much damage to the earth in 1000 years!
..> .>
..> .> Sad, but irrelevant.
..> .>
..> .> >I digress.
..> .>
..> .> That's right.
..> .>
..> .> >The reason I decided to e-mail you is that I felt that I
..> .> must bring to your attention one point that you forgot to mention in
..> .> your article. It is a popular issue here in the Oakland Hills. Where
..> .> bikes tend to stay on the marked trails, hikers DO NOT.
..> .>
..> .> And how does someone else's transgressions excuse mountain biking? Look up "non
..> .> sequitur" in the dictionary.
..> .
..> .Hikers are "your" people... Aren't you the slightest bit concerned that they are not
..> .all innocent.
..>
..> Of course. However, I am the one advocating human-free habitat YOU aren't!
..> Hypocrite.
..
..Advocating... fine. But YOU still go hiking into habitat, don't you?

Not all of it. Only a tiny bit.

..> Hmmm, just like mt bikers... not all of them are guilty. You hold the
..> .entire bunch to the fire for the actions of a few.
..>
..> Because all of them are human, and hence drive wildife away.
..>
..> .> > In Joaquin Miller
..> .> park, hikers have veered off trail, roaming though the Redwood groves. This
..> .> is causing the soil to compact to the extent that the Redwood roots will
..> .> eventually become suffocated, hence killing the beautiful trees the hikers
..> .> so admire.
..> .>
..> .> Bikers do the same thing, which is why the fences were put in (and ripped out by
..> .> the mountain bikers).
..> .
..> ."ripped out by mountain bikers"... Got proof? Or are we just supposed to be blamed for
..> .everything without question...
..> .
..> .>
..> .>
..> .> >Park superintendants have lined the trails with logs, but hikers
..> .> just walk right over them to go and 'hug a tree'. My point being, of course,
..> .> is that hikers tend to destroy more plants/wildlife than cyclists, because
..> .> they wander off trail much more frequently.
..> .>
..> .> That is called "anecdotal evidence", and is not scientific. It's true they do
..> .> that, but who does it more is an open question.
..> .
..> .I thought you said it was proven cyclists did it more...
..>
..> No, liar. Learn to READ!
..
..How abou you remembering what you say. You have said time and time again that mt biking is
.."more hazardous" to other trail users and wildlife.

READ. He was talking about going off-trail.

EX: "You completely missed my point. Even
..the most polite, well-behaved mountain biker: accelerates erosion, and drives wildlife and
..other trail users out of the area."
..That was just today! So either you say mt bikers are "more hazardous" or you don't... Which
..is it? Don't call me a liar for pointing out what you say and how you say it.
..
..>
..>
..> That is what you keep saying.
..> .Now it is an open question? Better go find another "study" that shows your numbers the
..> .way you want them...
..> .
..> .>
..> .>
..> .> >You proposed to create a pure habitat. Get real! With the non native plants
..> .> (chinese star thistle, scotch brume, etc) invading our native forests, you
..> .> will have a pile of weeds within a century.
..> .>
..> .> There is no solution to many exotic species invasions, regardless of what we do.
..> .
..> .Are humans considered exotic? You say we don't belong there, so we must be. Since there
..> .is no solution, you can go away now.
..>
..> After you.
..
..Way to skip over that one....
..
..>
..>
..> .> > The star thistle, for example,
..> .> was introduced to control erosion by who? The supervisors, the government, the
..> .> controlling officials of our parks. It is taking over the native california
..> .> grasslands in the blink of an eye in terms of a geological timeline. Think
..> .> of how the poison oak will take over, growing ceaselessly, engulfing everything
..> .> sight!
..> .>
..> .> So what?
..> .>
..> .> >I could refute so much of your premises which you proposed, like bike tires
..> .> carry
..> .> mud and other substace. A hiking boot will carry that same mud much further,
..> .> because on a bike, the same mud will be wisked away due to centrifugal force,
..> .> where the boot just carries it along, mile after mile.
..> .>
..> .> BS. When you stop, the mud stays there. Or do you never stop? 🙂
..> .>
..> .> >I have no doubt that you are an educated man, with your PhD and all, but think
..> .> about this; the wheel was invented long ago, it was such a great discovery.
..> .> Mabey
..> .> even greater than some of Newton's or Einstein's discoveries. The wheel is the
..> .> most efficient mode of transport. It is less impactful than boots, hooves, or
..> .> even bulldozers.
..> .>
..> .> That's just not true, which I think you well know.
..> .
..> .Bike tires are less impactful than bulldozers?
..>
..> No, than boots.
..
..Not what you said. Your statement "That's just not true, which I think you well know." was a
..blanket statement in response to the previous. And the previous mentioned bulldozers.
..
..>
..>
..> .> > I can remember hiking the trails of Tahoe when I was a kid, my
..> .> brother and I would 'skid' the trails with our boots as much a possible. We'd
..> .> kick rocks out of the soil and throw them in the creek, roam off trail to pick
..> .> wildflowers for our mom, create a shortcut to the next switchback, and on and
..> .> on.
..> .> I ride a bike now, and I don't skid or go off trail.
..> .>
..> .> That is a bald-faced lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bike without skidding, especially
..> .> when the trails get steep. Your nose is growing....
..> .
..> .IMPOSSIBLE??? Hardly... It is a matter of balancing the braking between the front and
..> .rear wheels. Tires MAY skid on occassion...
..>
..> Yes, just what I said: you can't avoid skidding.
..>
..> just like the slipping of hiking boots.
..> .However, since you have chosen to vilify an entire group (off road cyclists) with
..> .innuendo and name-calling, while letting your own (hikers) get a "pass",
..>
..> Liar. I am the one advocating human-free habitat. YOU aren't! Hypocrite.
..
..Liar. If you wanted a human-free habitat, you would not go into the woods at all. Since you
..do, your own commitment to your ideals is questionable.

I have actually created human-free areas. YOU haven't.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande