Adam Hart-Davis (front fork)

Ningi popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and said

Quoted message said:

Philip TAYLOR said:

soup said:

One of his bikes seems to have a single blade to the front fork
can see the wheel wouldn't have to be removed to change a
tube but an axle only supported at one end seems a lot weaker
than one supported at both ends, so why do it ?

Don't know. BMW (amongst others) have done it for years
on the rear axle of (some of) their motor-cycles, but
I wouldn't risk /my/ life on a single-sided design !

Like on all cars?

Quoted message said:

** Phil.

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.
'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by
one nut/threaded rod(axle). Ultimately these forces are taken
up by the axle, have more faith in a relatively thick axle rather
than a threaded rod thats trying to do the jobs of holding the
wheel on, supporting the weight of the vehicle rider combo
or loads placed on the wheel by the road depending on your datum
Any couples set up are equaled and opposited by the opposite
wheel in the car but any couples in the bike situation have to be
dealt with by the frame/rider.
Not saying it can't be done just wondering why it is done.

[1] 'exotic' cars with fancy alloys excepted

--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

Philip TAYLOR said:

But I was answering in the context of cycling, of which
motor cyling is a variant. Driving a car is a very
different kettle of fish.

Cars have long since proven single sided supports work okay. But there
again, so have cycles... How many trikes have you ever seen with the
pair having double sided support? You're just suffering from a FUD attack.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

in message <[email hidden]>, Graeme

(') said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in news:ce86h4$hi7$1
@dux.dundee.ac.uk:

Quoted message said:

How
often do you see cars (and buses, and trucks, and tractors, and JCBs
etc.) where a wheel has just snapped off?

I've seen it once, on a 2CV that was in front of us going through
roadworks approaching the Forth Road Bridge. I can't remember which
wheel it was, but it bounced off down the road. The passengers/load
was so arranged that the car remained upright on its three remaining
wheels until it could pull over at the side. Not something I expect to
ever see again. Scarey to watch though.

Rear wheel. All Citroens from pre-war through until at least the BX/CX
series were balanced 60/40 towards the front wheels and could be run
safely with one rear wheel missing provided you were reasonably gentle
in corners.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Graeme said:

I've seen it once, on a 2CV that was in front of us going through
roadworks approaching the Forth Road Bridge. I can't remember which
wheel it was, but it bounced off down the road. The passengers/load
was so arranged that the car remained upright on its three remaining
wheels until it could pull over at the side. Not something I expect
to ever see again. Scarey to watch though.

Difficult to say whether that was actually a case of snapping off with
a
broken axle, or just the wheel nuts not being done up. Probably the
latter though, as if it had the remains of the axle attached it
wouldn't have bounced so well...

Come to think of it I have once seen a brand new Austin Allegro (in the
days when such things were brand new) sitting at the side of the road
with a snapped off rear wheel. It was on the first day of a new
registration letter, and the seriously [censored] driver had just
collected it from the dealer!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Sending your money to someone just because they've erected
;; a barrier of obscurity and secrets around the tools you
;; need to use your data does not help the economy or spur
;; innovation. - Waffle Iron Slashdot, June 16th, 2002

in message <[email hidden]>, soup

(') said:

Ningi popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and
said

Quoted message said:

Philip TAYLOR said:

soup wrote:

> One of his bikes seems to have a single blade to the front fork
> can see the wheel wouldn't have to be removed to change a
> tube but an axle only supported at one end seems a lot weaker
> than one supported at both ends, so why do it ?

Don't know. BMW (amongst others) have done it for years
on the rear axle of (some of) their motor-cycles, but
I wouldn't risk /my/ life on a single-sided design !

Like on all cars?

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.

You're talking mince.

Quoted message said:

'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by
one nut/threaded rod(axle).

All car wheels are held on by an axle, and only an axle. If the wheel
was held on by nuts top and bottom it would not be able to rotate.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military

Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
and said

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, soup

(') said:

Ningi popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and
said

Quoted message said:

Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> soup wrote:
>
> > One of his bikes seems to have a single blade to the front
> > fork can see the wheel wouldn't have to be removed to change
> > a
> > tube but an axle only supported at one end seems a lot weaker
> > than one supported at both ends, so why do it ?
>
> Don't know. BMW (amongst others) have done it for years
> on the rear axle of (some of) their motor-cycles, but
> I wouldn't risk /my/ life on a single-sided design !
>

Like on all cars?

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.

You're talking mince.

Quoted message said:

'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by
one nut/threaded rod(axle).

All car wheels are held on by an axle, and only an axle. If the wheel
was held on by nuts top and bottom it would not be able to rotate.

Mmm so car wheels aren't usualy drilled with 4~5~6 holes then .
Have you ever changed a car tire ?Which usually involves
changing the whole wheel.
Think at one point in my post I do state that the forces go
through an axle but the axle DOESN'T hold the wheel on.
http://www.sidtech.co.uk/iu/soup3536340057.jpgGives an idea of what I am
talking about this is a live axle but the principle is the same

--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

soup popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and said

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
and said

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, soup

(') said:

Ningi popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and
said
> Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> > soup wrote:
> >
> > > One of his bikes seems to have a single blade to the front
> > > fork can see the wheel wouldn't have to be removed to
> > > change a
> > > tube but an axle only supported at one end seems a lot
> > > weaker than one supported at both ends, so why do it ?
> >
> > Don't know. BMW (amongst others) have done it for years
> > on the rear axle of (some of) their motor-cycles, but
> > I wouldn't risk /my/ life on a single-sided design !
> >
>
> Like on all cars?

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.

You're talking mince.

Quoted message said:

'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by
one nut/threaded rod(axle).

All car wheels are held on by an axle, and only an axle. If the
wheel was held on by nuts top and bottom it would not be able to
rotate.

Mmm so car wheels aren't usualy drilled with 4~5~6 holes then .
Have you ever changed a car tire ?Which usually involves
changing the whole wheel.
Think at one point in my post I do state that the forces go
through an axle but the axle DOESN'T hold the wheel on.
http://www.sidtech.co.uk/iu/soup3536340057.jpgGives an idea of what I
am talking about this is a live axle but the principle is the same

Ohhh mucked that up totaly link is

http://www.sidtech.co.uk/iu/soup3536340057.jpg

--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

In article <[email hidden]>,

soup said:

'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by

Whereas almost all competition cars have their wheels held on by a
single nut, co-axial with the axle.

ian

In article said:

Graeme said:

I've seen it once, on a 2CV that was in front of us going through roadworks
approaching the Forth Road Bridge. I can't remember which wheel it was, but
it bounced off down the road. The passengers/load was so arranged that the
car remained upright on its three remaining wheels until it could pull over
at the side. Not something I expect to ever see again. Scarey to watch
though.

Difficult to say whether that was actually a case of snapping off with a
broken axle, or just the wheel nuts not being done up. Probably the
latter though, as if it had the remains of the axle attached it wouldn't
have bounced so well...

Someone I used to work with once had his car written off by a wheel which
fell off another car and bounced over the central reservation of the
motorway they were on (travelling in opposite directions, so around
140mph closing speed at the point the wheel came off).
It wasn't a broken axle, but it wasn't just the wheelnuts, the whole hub
had come off the axle (nut not done up properly and no split pin in the
castelations, I guess). A few inches to one side and it would have gone
through his windscreen instead of hitting the side pillar.

I've seen a photo of a rallying Saab where the navigator is hanging out his
window to keep the opposite corner which has lost a rear wheel in the air.

(And I've once had loose wheelnuts, but thought "what's that sound?" and
stopped and tightened them well before they were completely undone.)

Peter Clinch said:

M&D used to have a GS. We never ran it on 3 wheels, but nifty features
of the hydraulic suspension included the back never getting extra low
with heavy loads and the ability to raise the ground clearance from the
drivers seat by moving a lever, quite handy on rough tracks strewn with
sump-crackers.

A good friend of mine who lived on a farm had a GS and it made a pretty
good offroader.

The DS is my dream car - I /shall/ own one!

d.

In article said:

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.
'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom

There's typically a single nut on the end of the axle holding the
hub bearing in, then multiple nuts or bolts holding the wheel onto
the hub.

wheras a bike wheel is only held on by

Quoted message said:

one nut/threaded rod(axle). Ultimately these forces are taken
up by the axle, have more faith in a relatively thick axle

A single sided bike axle is likely to be thicker than a standard
one.

Quoted message said:

Any couples set up are equaled and opposited by the opposite
wheel in the car but any couples in the bike situation have to be
dealt with by the frame/rider.

Bikes lean, so is there isn't any couple of the sort that anti-roll
bars resist.

"soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All car wheels are held on by an axle, and only an axle. If the wheel
was held on by nuts top and bottom it would not be able to rotate.

Mmm so car wheels aren't usualy drilled with 4~5~6 holes then .
Have you ever changed a car tire ?Which usually involves
changing the whole wheel.
Think at one point in my post I do state that the forces go
through an axle but the axle DOESN'T hold the wheel on.
http://www.sidtech.co.uk/iu/soup3536340057.jpgGives an idea of what I am
talking about this is a live axle but the principle is the same

Ok, for your next question, why not consider the wheel/hub assembly as far
as the axle? That way you're comparing like with like. What you're calling
the wheel is merely a tyre holder - it isn't the entire rotating assembly.

So, after our little nonenclature aside, what holds the rotating bits of a
car onto the rest of it? (hint - it is't the nuts top and bottom which are
commonly called wheel nuts).

cheers,
clive

Alan Braggins [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I've seen a photo of a rallying Saab where the navigator is hanging out his
window to keep the opposite corner which has lost a rear wheel in the air.

I remember watching a rally once where the driver clipped a "treestump"
[1]. Despite rolling the car and losing a rear wheel he not only
completed the course, but did so with only the loss of 11 seconds from
his projected time before the accident.

The footage showed the techs rolling out a replacement wheel when they
saw the accident, then rolling it back 3 minutes later as they watched
the sparks from the bodywork (And presumably, axle) whenever he
cornered!

Jon

[1] The treestump in question stood about 4 foot high (At least) and was
a good 3 foot across!

in message <[email hidden]>, soup

(') said:

Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
and said

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, soup

(') said:

Ningi popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and
said
> Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> > soup wrote:
> >
> > > One of his bikes seems to have a single blade to the front
> > > fork can see the wheel wouldn't have to be removed to change
> > > a
> > > tube but an axle only supported at one end seems a lot weaker
> > > than one supported at both ends, so why do it ?
> >
> > Don't know. BMW (amongst others) have done it for years
> > on the rear axle of (some of) their motor-cycles, but
> > I wouldn't risk /my/ life on a single-sided design !
> >
>
> Like on all cars?

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.

You're talking mince.

Quoted message said:

'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom wheras a bike wheel is only held on by
one nut/threaded rod(axle).

All car wheels are held on by an axle, and only an axle. If the wheel
was held on by nuts top and bottom it would not be able to rotate.

Mmm so car wheels aren't usualy drilled with 4~5~6 holes then .
Have you ever changed a car tire ?Which usually involves
changing the whole wheel.
Think at one point in my post I do state that the forces go
through an axle but the axle DOESN'T hold the wheel on.

That's an irrelevance. The front wheel of my Cannondale also has two
retention mechanisms, the captive nut on the end of the axle and the
disk caliper. Each of these prevent the wheel sliding off the end of
the axle, but it is the axle and only the axle which takes the load.
Similarly with cars - the wheel is held on to the hub with a
multiplicity of nuts, but if the axle breaks none of them will help.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>, soup

Quoted message said:

May be talking mince hear if I am please excuse me.
'Ordinary' [1]cars have there wheels held on by nuts/threaded
rods top and bottom

There's typically a single nut on the end of the axle holding the
hub bearing in, then multiple nuts or bolts holding the wheel onto
the hub.

wheras a bike wheel is only held on by

Quoted message said:

one nut/threaded rod(axle). Ultimately these forces are taken
up by the axle, have more faith in a relatively thick axle

A single sided bike axle is likely to be thicker than a standard
one.

Certainly is - by a lot:
<URL:http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/innovation/archive/leftyjake.html#structure>

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

Peter Clinch said:

Philip TAYLOR said:

If a wheel suddenly goes skew on my Saab, I have a
reasonable chance of remaining alive (D.v.); when the
same thing happens on my Suzuki, the chances diminish
to near zero ...

But the point is you /are/ "risking your life" with single sided
supports on your Saab, despite the fact you said you'd never do such a
thing. A "reasonable chance" is not certainty, so there is risk. How
often do you see cars (and buses, and trucks, and tractors, and JCBs
etc.) where a wheel has just snapped off?

Pete.

A childhood memory of mine is watching a bus conductor running down
Chiswick high road chasing a wheel that that did not stop when the
rest of the bus did. 1d, 3d , 6d etc flying out of his satchel as he
ran. As it was an LT trolleybus it still had five left to keep it
upright.

G.Harman

[email hidden] (g.harman) wrote in news:41082949.8071666
@news.individual.de:

Quoted message said:

A childhood memory of mine is watching a bus conductor running down
Chiswick high road chasing a wheel that that did not stop when the
rest of the bus did. 1d, 3d , 6d etc flying out of his satchel as he
ran.

So how much extra pocket money did you manage to pick up? :-)

Graeme

Quoted message said:

Bikes lean, so is there isn't any couple of the sort that anti-roll
bars resist.

how curious

On 28/7/04 6:11 pm, in article [email hidden],

Alan Braggins said:

Someone I used to work with once had his car written off by a wheel which
fell off another car and bounced over the central reservation of the
motorway they were on (travelling in opposite directions, so around
140mph closing speed at the point the wheel came off).

Seen this happen RIFOMVE.. At under 30mph, rear wheel comes off a ford
orion, bounces down the road into the front of a one week old Jaguar, across
the pavement (I did a quick shufti so it didn't hit me) and off a wall ,
back into the road and the door of a sierra.

Quoted message said:

It wasn't a broken axle, but it wasn't just the wheelnuts, the whole hub
had come off the axle (nut not done up properly and no split pin in the
castelations, I guess). A few inches to one side and it would have gone
through his windscreen instead of hitting the side pillar.

In this case the threads on the axle nut were very worn.

Quoted message said:

(And I've once had loose wheelnuts, but thought "what's that sound?" and
stopped and tightened them well before they were completely undone.)

<embarrassed> Been there, done that too</embarrassed>
...d

Philip TAYLOR said:

Quoted message said:

Like on all cars?

If a wheel suddenly goes skew on my Saab, I have a
reasonable chance of remaining alive (D.v.); when the
same thing happens on my Suzuki, the chances diminish
to near zero ...

Anyone remember the Morris 1100 which used to regularly shed a front
wheel axle?

Tony