Biking will grow due to LA?

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a

way for

Quoted message said:

people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My

daughter

Quoted message said:

would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally

can can

Quoted message said:

find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local

crit,

Quoted message said:

she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we

weren't

Quoted message said:

welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the

bike

Quoted message said:

alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go

back

Quoted message said:

down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game

which make

Quoted message said:

it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders

would

Quoted message said:

welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride

with

Quoted message said:

them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She

wanted

Quoted message said:

to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if

they

Quoted message said:

competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of

their

Quoted message said:

groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats.

I was

Quoted message said:

disgusted at their behavior.

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running,

target

Quoted message said:

shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies

are

Quoted message said:

welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in

the

Quoted message said:

sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in

biking

Quoted message said:

have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed

lately.

Quoted message said:

I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who

told me

Quoted message said:

about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among

the

Quoted message said:

elite then.

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why

the

Quoted message said:

public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome

the

Quoted message said:

public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on

a

Quoted message said:

second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and

yet

Quoted message said:

isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by

women they

Quoted message said:

would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major

event,

Quoted message said:

but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can

enter?

Quoted message said:

The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like

they

Quoted message said:

come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles

over

Quoted message said:

mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a

sport

Quoted message said:

by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always

about as

Quoted message said:

poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

It'll never grow in the US. Some guy (presumably beer drinking, Nascar
watching, redneck type) in a Dodge Ram pulled up to me and said I wasn't
courteous as a biker because I stuck to my lane (instead to the farthest
right hand side next to the sidewalk where the right turn lane is), and
went on to say how he is a biker too and is courteous.

Oh well...

Jiyang Chen

Paul Cassel said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way for
people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My daughter
would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally can can
find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local crit,
she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we weren't
welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the bike
alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go back
down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game which make
it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders would
welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride with
them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She wanted
to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if they
competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of their
groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats. I was
disgusted at their behavior.

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running, target
shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies are
welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in the
sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in biking
have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed lately.
I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who told me
about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among the
elite then.

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why the
public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome the
public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on a
second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and yet
isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by women they
would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major event,
but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can enter?
The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like they
come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles over
mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a sport
by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about as
poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

If she's keeping up with adult fields at age 11, they're scared of her!
Don't know where you are, but find a local bike show that deals with
racing equipment, and find out about racing clubs in the area.
Depending upon where you are, you may have to travel a bit. Almost all
local teams have graded club races and some degree of coaching.
There is no excuse for rudeness to a young rider. In honesty, many of
the older riders may assume your daughter cannot handle a bike in a race
situation and may fear she'll cause a crash. Much better for her to
start with her peers and learn about bike handling, race tactics and
training from folks who are trying to see her get along.

Good luck,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way

for

<big snip>

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I wasn't there, so I couldn't say, but
did you consider that seasoned racers are often VERY leery of new,
inexperienced riders. They can cause havoc even on a club ride ... moreso
in a race. And when I say they can cause havoc, I mean they can get someone
seriously hurt. There's alot to knowing where to be and how to behave (and
where not to be and how not to behave) in a race. If your daughter is new
to the sport and just thrust herself in there, the more experienced riders
would QUITE UNDERSTANDABLY try their very best to avoid proximity to her. I
speak from experience. I got taken out years ago by a kid who showed up at
an event in toe clips and tennis shoes. He rode his butt off at the front
for the first ten miles while we all sat back and just kinda wondered what
in the world he was up to. But when he went down crossing some RR tracks, I
was caught up in the mayhem. My patella was cracked completely in two and I
was off the bike for six months. I'll admit it was boneheaded for us to be
following this kid that closely, but after 10 miles, we just kinda got used
to him. Of course, he got up, brushed himself off and rode on while I
awaited the ambulance.

So there can be very good reasons that racers don't want to be around your
daughter if she is, indeed, inexperienced and new to the sport. It's not a
good sport to learn by throwing yourself into the deep end. If you crash,
you'll probably ruin somebody elses season ... or worse.

It takes time to learn the ettiquette and strategy. Those people she was
racing against had to start somewhere and learn somewhere. There are clubs
and teams that will start people out in the proper place and at the proper
pace. Don't look for shortcuts. Pay your dues. It's a great sport if you
do it right.

Good luck,
Bob C.

Paul Cassel said:

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why the
public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome the
public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on a
second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and yet
isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by women
they
would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major
event,
but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Hi Paul:

Well, you arent the first to point out how difficult it is for a newbie to
get into racing. Most racers are mentored in by a friend (as I was in
college) or in a cycling club with a racing contingent. I cant imagine how
I would have taken to the sport if I had just started showing up at races.
No...there is no way I would have stayed with it, I'm certain.

Part of the problem is the nature of the sport itself. There is a
competitive threshold you must surpass to even participate. If you cant
hold a wheel at race speed, you're out the back and on your way home in a
few short minutes. That is so different from running where you can go at
your own pace and still finish the event without shame. But it sounds like
your daughter is talented and that will not be a problem.

But a large part of the problem is the mental attitude of bike racers.
After racing for 12 years I took one summer off and did some running races
(I was a runner in high school), and it was only then that I realized what a
hard nosed, even unfriendly, bunch bike racers are compared to runners. I
had just become accustomed to that culture, and was pleasantly surprised at
the friendly, welcoming attitude of the runners in comparison. Perhaps it's
because bike racing is such a closet sport, often developed in near
isolation, that riders always seem compelled to establish a pecking order in
groups. I'm not sure what the cause, but it's an interesting phenomenon.
I've even noticed that racers have a terrible reputation with the local bike
club and are generally not welcome at club rides. The club riders are wary
that the guy with the USCF sticker on his truck will try to hammer them all
senseless. The local club shunned me for suggesting we ride a pace
line...and I wasnt interested in hammering, just in getting the most for our
effort. They just associate paceline with competition and competition with
an unfriendly attitude.

Anyway, all that aside, bike racing is a beautiful sport and a riding is a
great lifelong activity, so I encourage you to find a local racing club and
get your daughter involved. She needs to learn the sport from experienced
riders or it will take her twice as long to get going. Even with help, I
think it takes about 3 years to reasonably learn the sport...and that means
training, racing, and simple team tactics. Maybe 11 is a bit young, and
maybe she should just ride for a few more years, but when she wants to learn
racing, she must have help. The ideal situation is for her to have the
opportunity to ride with one or two experienced racers several times a week.
Bigger groups can be educational, but less instructive and somewhat
intimidating...plus big group rides often become impromptu races.

Quoted message said:

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about as
poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

I think cycling will only grow if high schools begin to adopt cycling
programs. Cyclo-cross would be ideal, but I dont see it happening.

Good luck.

steve
--
"A man was severely injured today in the Knutsford area."

Benny Hill

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way
for people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My
daughter would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking
locally can can find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we
went to a local crit, she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who
clearly snubbed her lower priced bike and less well turned out riding
clothes. Clearly, we weren't welcome to the 'club' of those who spent
well over U$5,000 for the bike alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even
then.

I think you'll find that if you get your little girl on a decent ($600+)
bike that people aren't afraid to ride behind she will be more welcome in
the group. It might help if she found an older group of girls to ride
with. I think if you found a group of 10-11-12 year old jrs. to race with
she might have a better reception. Unfortunately for you, to find that
kind of a field, you might have to travel quite a ways depending on where
you live.

Quoted message said:

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go
back down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game
which make it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women
riders would welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment
to ride with them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting
her off. She wanted to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet
they played as if they competed against her cutting ahead of her, then
stranding her out of their groups so she rode as as solo. None would
speak to her between heats. I was disgusted at their behavior.

You'd probably think differently if you were hanging on to the back of a
pack by the skin of your teeth and kept getting tailed off by a weaker
rider. Not saying that this is what your daughter was doing, just pointing
out that there are situations where cutting off a newbie might make the
difference between staying with the pack or getting dropped. While on a
perfect world this should never happen (as her riding should be
anticipated), it does happen in the real world inhabited by a oxygen-
depleted bicycle racers.

Quoted message said:

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running, target
shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies are
welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in the
sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in
biking have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has
changed lately. I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle
racer who told me about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because
she was among the elite then.

Cycling is such a cut throat sport. You must realize that probably >50% of
the field is trying simply to hang on. Sometimes desperate times call for
desperate measures. I'm not saying this is right, just how it happens.
Especially in the women's races I've seen which tend to have way smaller
fileds than the men's.

Quoted message said:

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why
the public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome
the public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl
on a second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion
and yet isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run
by women they would have made such a fuss over her that it would have
been a major event, but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Quoted message said:

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can
enter? The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look
like they come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100

WTF are you talking about? I've seen a Fred in cut-off blue jeans, white
t- shirt, and hairy legs racing a Cat. 5 crit on a hand-me-down bike. Most
racers probably tried not to ride behind him (for fear of crashing), but
most were too out of breath to speak. You have to start somewhere. Most
realize this, especially in the lower categories and juniors.

Quoted message said:

miles over mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to
'try' a sport by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter
at an equal amount which she will outgrow next year!

My suggestion would be to focus on other endurance sports until she gets a
little older. Then you won't have to worry about her out-growing her first
"decent" bicycle as she grows through puberty. By the time you actually
buy it, she will be at her full height. By that point (assuming that in
the mean time she's been been training for other endurance sports like
running or swimming), she should be able to keep up with the older girls.

Quoted message said:

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about
as poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

I could care less.
I kinda like it as a fringe sport.

Quoted message said:

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

No need to flame.
Good luck.

- Boyd S.

The main problem is car culture in north america. In order to even think
about competing in cycling, you typically are already a hardened bike
commuter used to dealing with 1 foot / gallon SUV's. Let's face it: cycling
is inherently dangerous in North America. This is what makes it an
exclusive sport. You basically have to be a hardcore sociopathic masochist
to get into it. To participate, you are essentially saying: "F*uck you" to
the fossil fuel machine. It's almost a counter-culture sport. Hell, even
local races around the east coast of Canada are incredibly competitive, with
national-class racers taking part.
So let it be written, so let it be done...

--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois
AGC-PC support
http://agc-pc.tripod.com
BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+

"Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a

way for

Quoted message said:

people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My

daughter

Quoted message said:

would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally

can can

Quoted message said:

find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local

crit,

Quoted message said:

she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we

weren't

Quoted message said:

welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the

bike

Quoted message said:

alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go

back

Quoted message said:

down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game

which make

Quoted message said:

it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders

would

Quoted message said:

welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride

with

Quoted message said:

them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She

wanted

Quoted message said:

to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if

they

Quoted message said:

competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of

their

Quoted message said:

groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats.

I was

Quoted message said:

disgusted at their behavior.

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running,

target

Quoted message said:

shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies

are

Quoted message said:

welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in

the

Quoted message said:

sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in

biking

Quoted message said:

have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed

lately.

Quoted message said:

I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who

told me

Quoted message said:

about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among

the

Quoted message said:

elite then.

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why

the

Quoted message said:

public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome

the

Quoted message said:

public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on

a

Quoted message said:

second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and

yet

Quoted message said:

isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by

women they

Quoted message said:

would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major

event,

Quoted message said:

but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can

enter?

Quoted message said:

The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like

they

Quoted message said:

come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles

over

Quoted message said:

mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a

sport

Quoted message said:

by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always

about as

Quoted message said:

poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

It'll never grow in the US. Some guy (presumably beer drinking, Nascar
watching, redneck type) in a Dodge Ram pulled up to me and said I wasn't
courteous as a biker because I stuck to my lane (instead to the farthest
right hand side next to the sidewalk where the right turn lane is), and
went on to say how he is a biker too and is courteous.

Oh well...

Jiyang Chen

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way for
people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My daughter
would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally can can
find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local crit,
she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we weren't
welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the bike
alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

You find this attitude in most sports. You pay your dues by hanging
with them or even placing well a few times. Nothing wrong at all with
a lower priced bike or kit, anyone who says otherwise is trying to
mentally defeat you before you get started.

Quoted message said:

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go back
down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game which make
it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders would
welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride with
them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She wanted
to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if they
competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of their
groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats. I was
disgusted at their behavior.

Some clubs are very welcoming of new female riders, checkout
www.velobella.org

Quoted message said:

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running, target
shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies are
welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in the
sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in biking
have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed lately.
I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who told me
about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among the
elite then.

The weakest feel most threatened by newcomers in all sports. Why care
what they think?

Quoted message said:

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why the
public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome the
public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on a
second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and yet
isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by women they
would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major event,
but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

You could always form your own bike club and have it's own crits.
Seems this has been an idea drummed into my head all my life, guess
the same people didn't get to you.

Quoted message said:

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can enter?
The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like they
come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles over
mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a sport
by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about as
poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

Sports grow at the grassroots level. Don't like the weeds? Become
the grassroot.

I'll be damned if I ever stop riding because someone turns their nose
up at me. I just ride harder.

Last tidbit: Expect lots of people to buy new bikes, take short rides
and say, "Oh that hurt, back to the couch for me!" and the market will
be flooded in no time with excellent bikes at bargain prices.

Paul, it is very difficult to find races anymore. Even the local training
crits have dried up here in the bike crazy bay area. Finding enough racing
for a minor girls group is nearly impossible. We only had six or seven on a
really good day. And I brought two of them.

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way

for

Quoted message said:

people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My daughter
would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally can

can

Quoted message said:

find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local crit,
she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we weren't
welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the bike
alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go back
down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game which

make

Quoted message said:

it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders would
welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride with
them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She

wanted

Quoted message said:

to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if they
competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of their
groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats. I

was

Quoted message said:

disgusted at their behavior.

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running, target
shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies are
welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in the
sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in

biking

Quoted message said:

have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed

lately.

Quoted message said:

I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who told me
about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among the
elite then.

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why the
public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome the
public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on a
second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and yet
isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by women

they

Quoted message said:

would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major

event,

Quoted message said:

but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can

enter?

Quoted message said:

The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like they
come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles over
mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a

sport

Quoted message said:

by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about as
poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

steve said:

Quoted message said:

Well, you arent the first to point out how difficult it is for a newbie to
get into racing. Most racers are mentored in by a friend (as I was in
college) or in a cycling club with a racing contingent. I cant imagine how
I would have taken to the sport if I had just started showing up at races.
No...there is no way I would have stayed with it, I'm certain.

Racing is not important. You're supposed to get dropped in your first
events (or else you are destined to be champion). That's the nature
of the sport -- one winner and several dozen losers.

Cycing in general is different. We should promote that.

JT

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Racing is not important. You're supposed to get dropped in your first
events (or else you are destined to be champion). That's the nature
of the sport -- one winner and several dozen losers.

Yes, but unless you have someone telling you that...and helping you to hang
sooner rather than later (I believe I hung on in my second race, but I had
lots of help with tips on conserving energy and sucking wheel), you would be
likely to conclude that you simply couldnt manage.

But why do you say racing is not important? When you can be competitive,
racing is the most fun you can have with your pants (or something that
resembles pants) on.

So...what do you mean?

steve
--
"A man was severely injured today in the Knutsford area."

Benny Hill

steve said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Racing is not important. You're supposed to get dropped in your first
events (or else you are destined to be champion). That's the nature
of the sport -- one winner and several dozen losers.

Yes, but unless you have someone telling you that...and helping you to hang
sooner rather than later (I believe I hung on in my second race, but I had
lots of help with tips on conserving energy and sucking wheel), you would be
likely to conclude that you simply couldnt manage.

But why do you say racing is not important? When you can be competitive,
racing is the most fun you can have with your pants (or something that
resembles pants) on.

So...what do you mean?

I mean in terms of activism to create a better environment for racing.
Making cycling more accessible is the key to that.

JT

Paul Cassel said:

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way for
people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My daughter
would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally can can
find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local crit,
she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we weren't
welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the bike
alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go back
down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game which make
it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders would
welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride with
them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She wanted
to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if they
competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of their
groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats. I was
disgusted at their behavior.

Other people have made some reasonable points. I think you are putting too
much emphasis on the price and appearance of bike. Most people I've met
don't care too much about that, but they do care about the rider's skills.
Cycling is not the same as running because you race in a group and it can be
more dangerous. If you aren't used to riding in a group, you probably aren't
aware of how obvious it is when someone is not used to group riding and is
squirrelly. None of this is to excuse anyone being rude to you and your
daughter, but I bet it's more that they just don't know you. During a race
is not the best time to make new friends because everyone is concentrating
very hard on what they are doing and the wheel in front of them.

The best way to get involved is not just to show up at a race, but to find
people to ride with and gain experience. This applies to everyone, not just
11 year olds. You mentioned that you couldn't find a club to join. If
you said where you are, some local rbr reader could probably recommend one.
Several regional racing associations are concerned about low levels of junior
involvement and have active programs to encourage juniors, so I doubt that
there is really no program out there. Even if they didn't start as juniors,
all the women at that crit had to start somewhere too, so there must be
clubs that encourage them. Around here many of the women's teams are
especially welcoming of new racers. Many cycling clubs, like all other
voluntary associations in an age of increasing social atomization, are
always concerned about getting new members.

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Lance Armstrong's run of six straight Tour de
France victories has raised cycling's profile in the United States to
unprecedented levels.

For biking as a sport in the US to grow what it needs to happen is a way

for

Quoted message said:

people to participate and for those in it to welcome newbies. My daughter
would like to do some shorter races, but we've been looking locally can

can

Quoted message said:

find no clubs where she can enter the sport. When we went to a local crit,
she wasn't welcomed at all by the riders who clearly snubbed her lower
priced bike and less well turned out riding clothes. Clearly, we weren't
welcome to the 'club' of those who spent well over U$5,000 for the bike
alone and maybe we'd not be welcomed even then.

It won't take long of such attitude for biking enthusiasm to again go back
down. IMO, based on the little I've seen, it is those in the game which

make

Quoted message said:

it such an exclusive sport. You would think that adult women riders would
welcome a younger woman who was trying on lesser equipment to ride with
them, but instead they gave her a hard time even cutting her off. She

wanted

Quoted message said:

to try to pace the group so she didn't enter, yet they played as if they
competed against her cutting ahead of her, then stranding her out of their
groups so she rode as as solo. None would speak to her between heats. I

was

Quoted message said:

disgusted at their behavior.

I will tell you with perfect certainty that in distance running, target
shooting, road racing, and many other sports that I've done, newbies are
welcomed warmly and encouraged. They are supported because those in the
sport understand that new ones are the future. Only in skiing and in

biking

Quoted message said:

have I seen such behavior. I was disgusted that nothing has changed

lately.

Quoted message said:

I did see this once long ago because I married a bicycle racer who told me
about this attitude, but it didn't affect her because she was among the
elite then.

I am speaking to you if you are a bike racer type. You may wonder why the
public doesn't welcome you. Perhaps it is because you don't welcome the
public. How does one join your sport? Why is it an 11 year old girl on a
second hand bike actually keeps up with the group in a criterion and yet
isn't even encouraged by the women? If this had been a 10k run by women

they

Quoted message said:

would have made such a fuss over her that it would have been a major

event,

Quoted message said:

but as it was, the only notice she got was from me.

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can

enter?

Quoted message said:

The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like they
come from the TdF. I am not going to ride my first event 100 miles over
mountains which is the only one I can find. I am not going to 'try' a

sport

Quoted message said:

by buying a bicycle for $5,000 and another for my daughter at an equal
amount which she will outgrow next year!

So you want your sport to grow or do you wish it to remain always about as
poplular in the US as curling? It's up to you.

You may flame me if you wish, I can take it.

-paul

IMHO
Everyone pays dues. A lot of seasoned riders gain personal significanse in
their sport. After all, a lot of sweat, toil, and work goes into being
competitive. Until someone proves themselves, not just in ability, but in
attitude as well, it is pretty much universal that 'group membership' always
carried dues to pay. Having said that, personally, I've found women
competitive bikers much more 'colder' and snooty in attitude than men
bikers. Many act like they have a bug up their butt. Not sure
why...something about today's culture I think; how women are being raised
from kindergarten [in the USA I'm talking about]. That's my view anyway...

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:25:02 -0600, "Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Where are the beginners' events so people like me and my daughter can enter?
The only men's events are for A class riders on bikes that look like they
come from the TdF

Cat V and IV are hardly A class riders. If you aren't ready for racing
cat V, most areas have training races and training rides. Of course,
the first step should probably be finding the right USCF club. There
are plenty of USCF licensed riders that never get beyond training the
rides. They are rarely discouraged, because they are the first to be
asked to do road guard or, worse, become an official.

Actual bike races are competitions. Everyone prepares for a
competition in their own way, and for many it isn't their most
outgoing moment. OTOH, I've seen people go to business mixers, manage
to meet practically no one and say it is everyone else's fault. And
complaining to me while I stand there with 30 other business cards in
my hand.

As to the reaction of the women, I can't comment, but it does seem to
be based on one incident. I have observed cat Vs on one day licenses
that did not realize just how dangerous their moves actually were.
They were 'ostracized' because they were dangerous. The women may have
been jerks, but they also may have been doing what they felt
necessary.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I mean in terms of activism to create a better environment for racing.
Making cycling more accessible is the key to that.

More accessible in the sense of better road conditions and respect from the
auto traffic? I know from personal experience that those things are factors
in the burbs and the city (raced for two years while living in Boston), but
in outer suburbs and rural areas (where I now live because of my cycling)
those problems all but disappear. I guess the bottom line is if you cant
manage to train where you live, you have to drive to the riding regularly or
make a lifestyle choice and move. Im not sure there is any reasonable way
around that. Bike trails and bike lanes in heavily populated areas are not
much of an answer, because both still require you to stop too frequently.
And in northern VA (where I lived recently until I moved to the sticks) the
bike trail is inundated with joggers, kids on bikes, and just provides the
locals with another reason to harass you when you're on the road (ask me how
many times I heard someone yell " Get on the bike trail, [censored]!"😉...and
it's the most boring riding I can imagine, anyway.

What solutions do you see, if any?

steve
--
"A man was severely injured today in the Knutsford area."

Benny Hill

Benjamin Weiner said:

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote:

The best way to get involved is not just to show up at a race, but to
find people to ride with and gain experience. This applies to
everyone, not just 11 year olds. You mentioned that you couldn't
find a club to join. If
you said where you are, some local rbr reader could probably
recommend one.

Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

tooly said:

IMHO
Everyone pays dues. A lot of seasoned riders gain personal
significanse in their sport. After all, a lot of sweat, toil, and
work goes into being competitive. Until someone proves themselves,
not just in ability, but in attitude as well, it is pretty much
universal that 'group membership' always carried dues to pay. Having
said that, personally, I've found women competitive bikers much more
'colder' and snooty in attitude than men bikers. Many act like they
have a bug up their butt. Not sure why...something about today's
culture I think; how women are being raised from kindergarten [in the
USA I'm talking about]. That's my view anyway...

I agree with you and will also note that a few men riders talked with my
daughter telling her that she did well to keep up with the group as well as
she did. However, she was clearly hoping to get to talk to a few of the
women for obvious reasons she was interested in hearing from them and
comparing notes, if that's a good way of saying it. There were many women
there yet none of them spoke to her at all.

I do understand that there may be danger in riding in a group, but that is
no excuse for nobody talking to a newbie on the sidelines. Also I am not an
idiot. My daughter is not a fool either. I can see and so can she that she
was doing nothing to endanger the groups of riders. She was tracking well
and keeping up with the packs, but they would snub her.

Well, clearly we can't discuss it since only I was there and I can't expect
you to believe me as I am hardly a neutral observer. Yet I am not hearing
howls of protest so I expect the group here at least suspects what I saw
*could* very well have occured just as I thought it did.

paul

Curtis L. Russell said:

As to the reaction of the women, I can't comment, but it does seem to
be based on one incident. I have observed cat Vs on one day licenses
that did not realize just how dangerous their moves actually were.
They were 'ostracized' because they were dangerous. The women may have
been jerks, but they also may have been doing what they felt
necessary.

If my daughter was a danger to anybody then speak to her and me who was
clearly her dad or to at least the officials. I cannot accept this as an
explanation because the riders had these remedies. Also I had my wife who,
in the past, explained that this is the culture of bike riders. I'd hoped
this changed, but it hasn't. Until this changes, I think biking will remain
a niche sport here in the US.

-paul

Andre said:

In order to even think
about competing in cycling, you typically are already a hardened bike
commuter used to dealing with 1 foot / gallon SUV's

You're joking, right? While obviously there are some that do both,
there is hardly a causal relationship. Probably more racers started
out as Saturday/Sunday recreational and sport riders than commuters.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...