CVT rear hub?

On 28 Jul 2004 20:45:09 -0700, [email hidden]

(Chalo) said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

This fellow was equally curious about the Nupace Infinity
CVT hub and shifter in December, but received no reply:

http://www.cyclery.com/forums/tech/1071491871/view?s_on=TITLE&s_order=forward&batch_start=181

He apparently found a web site, but doesn't reveal what it
was.

I suspect that the eBay description is just copied from the
company site, whatever it is, but Google doesn't turn up
anything else for nupace, so the company may be out of
business or using a different name.

Carl Fogel

no i never seen it
"Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Chalo said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Richard Tack said:

Chalo said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Dear Richard,

Since the seller appeared only last week, it would actually
be suspicious if any feedback existed. Everyone has to start
somewhere. (A highly dubious character hiding behind the
impenetrable nom-de-web of cfogel on eBay was in exactly the
same position at the end of June in 1998.)

I've just used eBay to ask if nupacehub is the nupace
company, if there is a web site, and if there's any patent
number.

"Nupace" is also the acronym for some sort of Korean-North
Carolina university program, and the seller is in North
Carolina.

Carl Fogel

On 28 Jul 2004 20:45:09 -0700, [email hidden]

(Chalo) said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

While Googling "nupace" got me nowhere, a more intelligent
person would have peeked at the properties of the pictures
or just tried the obvious: www.nupace.com

(I'm bad at crossword puzzles, too.)

The web site offers little more than the same eBay
description, but there are phone numbers, an order page, and
so forth.

I see no technical explanations or diagrams, but there are
some dimensions, details about the spoke holes and cog size,
and a weight of 2120 grams.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Starting bid: US $995.00

Yiiikes!

It looks like I'll be using twentieth-century shifting technology for a
bit longer.

--
Robots don't kill people -- people kill people.
http://www.irobotmovie.com/

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Richard Tack said:

Chalo said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Dear Richard,

Since the seller appeared only last week, it would actually
be suspicious if any feedback existed. Everyone has to start
somewhere. (A highly dubious character hiding behind the
impenetrable nom-de-web of cfogel on eBay was in exactly the
same position at the end of June in 1998.)

I've just used eBay to ask if nupacehub is the nupace
company, if there is a web site, and if there's any patent
number.

"Nupace" is also the acronym for some sort of Korean-North
Carolina university program, and the seller is in North
Carolina.

I typed in www.nupace.com and got to their web site. Same thing as the
ebay ad. Same price too. No information on the hub at all. I too am
curious as to how this works.
-----------------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I typed in www.nupace.com and got to their web site. Same thing as
the ebay ad. Same price too. No information on the hub at all. I
too am curious as to how this works.

I was curious about this too, since I've been thinking of getting a Rohloff
hub (when I can afford it).

If the gear comparison graphic on this page
(http://www.nupace.com/product.htm) is accurate, then it looks like it runs
from 50 to 200 gear inches, which doesn't sound very useful. Who needs
gears that tall? But maybe there are lower ratios available with a
different cog and chainring.

I'd want to know a lot more about the company history, and reliability of
this thing, before spending that kind of money. At least the Rohloff has
been out for a few years and seems reliable (so far).

--
Mike Barrs

LioNiNoiL_a t_N e t s c a p E_D 0 T_N e T said:

> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Quoted message said:

Starting bid: US $995.00

Yiiikes!

It looks like I'll be using twentieth-century shifting technology for a
bit longer.

--
Robots don't kill people -- people kill people.
http://www.irobotmovie.com/

2 kg too! What a pig. That is the weight of my cranks, cassette, shifter/brake levers, cables, derailers and chain. Since I need cranks, chain and the brakes, there is no weight savings.

Quoted message said:

Richard Tack said:

Chalo said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Dear Richard,

Since the seller appeared only last week, it would actually
be suspicious if any feedback existed. Everyone has to start
somewhere. (A highly dubious character hiding behind the
impenetrable nom-de-web of cfogel on eBay was in exactly the
same position at the end of June in 1998.)

I've just used eBay to ask if nupacehub is the nupace
company, if there is a web site, and if there's any patent
number.

"Nupace" is also the acronym for some sort of Korean-North
Carolina university program, and the seller is in North
Carolina.

Carl Fogel

If you look at the picture of the hub, it appears you can
see more than 180 degrees of its circumference. I count a
total of only 12 spoke holes. Advertised as a 36 spoke hub.

Richard Tack said:

Quoted message said:

Richard Tack said:

Chalo wrote:

>Does anybody know anything about this?
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051
>
>Chalo Colina

Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Dear Richard,

Since the seller appeared only last week, it would actually
be suspicious if any feedback existed. Everyone has to start
somewhere. (A highly dubious character hiding behind the
impenetrable nom-de-web of cfogel on eBay was in exactly the
same position at the end of June in 1998.)

I've just used eBay to ask if nupacehub is the nupace
company, if there is a web site, and if there's any patent
number.

"Nupace" is also the acronym for some sort of Korean-North
Carolina university program, and the seller is in North
Carolina.

Carl Fogel

If you look at the picture of the hub, it appears you can
see more than 180 degrees of its circumference. I count a
total of only 12 spoke holes. Advertised as a 36 spoke hub.

Dear Richard,

You may be getting a little paranoid and forgetting how many
flanges there are on a hub.

There appear to be 18 holes on one hub flange--and 18 holes
on the other. This allows 36 spokes.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Richard Tack said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:05:38 GMT, Richard Tack
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Chalo wrote:
>
>
>>Does anybody know anything about this?
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051
>>
>>Chalo Colina
>
>Seller has zero feedback, something stinks.

Dear Richard,

Since the seller appeared only last week, it would actually
be suspicious if any feedback existed. Everyone has to start
somewhere. (A highly dubious character hiding behind the
impenetrable nom-de-web of cfogel on eBay was in exactly the
same position at the end of June in 1998.)

I've just used eBay to ask if nupacehub is the nupace
company, if there is a web site, and if there's any patent
number.

"Nupace" is also the acronym for some sort of Korean-North
Carolina university program, and the seller is in North
Carolina.

Carl Fogel

If you look at the picture of the hub, it appears you can
see more than 180 degrees of its circumference. I count a
total of only 12 spoke holes. Advertised as a 36 spoke hub.

Dear Richard,

You may be getting a little paranoid and forgetting how many
flanges there are on a hub.

There appear to be 18 holes on one hub flange--and 18 holes
on the other. This allows 36 spokes.

Carl Fogel

Ooops!

On 28 Jul 2004 20:45:09 -0700, [email hidden]

(Chalo) said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

The eBay seller of the Nupace Infinity CVT hub replied
promptly and politely to my scatterbrained query as follows:

"Carl, Thank for your e-mail. We have been in development
for 10 years on the infinity hubset and have our own
off-shore manufacturing capabilities with assembly done here
in US. We have US patent protection along with foreign
filings. We also have patent pending status for additional
applications where changes have occured. The most current
patent that you may view for an idea of its function in
pat.no.5,971,877. Please visit our website at www.nupace.com
Cordially, Hal Hunter"

I stuffed the patent number into the Patent Office search:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

and was rewarded with this patent description:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,971,877.WKU.&OS=PN/5,971,877&RS=PN/5,971,877
or
http://tinyurl.com/67o38

It leads to drawings and explanations that may allow more
knowledgeable folk to figure out what's going on inside that
hub.

Carl Fogel

Oddly, the NUPACE site doesn't mention anything about the overall
effeciency of this hub.

A simmilarly-priced competitor (rohloff 14 speed hub) claims 96%
effeciency compared to 98% for a *clean* and *well-lubricated*
regularly geared system. If they don't talk about it, I'd guess the
NUPACE effeciency is fairly poor.

Rohloff also has the advantage of being a well-tested, well-respected
product used by tandem tourists, etc... over many miles. Anyone ever
heard of NUPACE before?

Lastly, if you're looking for a better deal (price-wise) take a peek
at Shimano's NEXUS or the SRAM (was Sachs prior to buy-out) hubs.
They're all under $300 last time I checked.

For really techie gear-heads, check out a new internal-gearing idea at
www.g-boxx.org ... moving the gearbox to the bottom-bracket position!

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/67o38

It leads to drawings and explanations that may allow more
knowledgeable folk to figure out what's going on inside that
hub.

Carl Fogel

It looks like a ratchet type CVT.
http://cvt.com.sapo.pt/ratcheting/ratcheting.htm The nupace appears
to be a copy of PAT-US-5950488 shown on that page.
The output of those is usually not smooth, but the more ratchets you
add the smoother output starts to look until it's about as smooth as a
roller chain can get. But that's a lot of ratchets. And the system can
handle only as much torque as any single ratchet (or set of ratchets if
several engage together) can handle. So you have a lot of weight for
not a lot of transmission.
Probably makes a noise somewhere between buzzing and grinding when
you're riding.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail.net

Quoted message said:

I stuffed the patent number into the Patent Office search
and was rewarded with this patent description:

http://tinyurl.com/67o38

It leads to drawings and explanations that may allow more
knowledgeable folk to figure out what's going on inside that
hub.

I am well versed with reading engineers' prints as well as whiteboard
scribbles and napkin sketches, and I am sure that with a little
informed explanation beyond that available in the patent description,
I could make sense of the cross section provided as an illustration.
As it is, I haven't a clue whether or not they are really on to
something.

I posted my query here (instead of just contacting the seller) in the
hopes of finding someone not personally associated with the
manufacturer who had seen or used or at least heard reports about the
hub in question. I must maintain a certain skepticism about any CVT
product given the CVT's traditional association with, um, crackpots.

That said, I am a confirmed gearhub fan as well as something of a
mechanism geek, and I would be delighted to discover a hub that offers
what this one purports to offer, along with 90%+ mechanical
efficiency, good reliability and serviceability. Note that the
promotional materials fail to mention any of those last three things.

I suspect that offering the hub at a price of $1000 while it is
unproven (and presumed problematic) is a sure route to slow market
entry.

I could probably be talked into accepting an early production unit,
torture testing it, and reporting back with my findings. I might even
buy it, depending on how much I liked it. But I wouldn't even
consider buying it sight unseen from an online auction.

eBay, I believe, is not a good route to market for this product--
unless it's a horrible albatross in some unobvious way and must be
dumped on an unsuspecting group of buyers.

Chalo Colina

In a follow-up to my last post, I emailed Hal Hunter at NUPACE with my
question on effeciency and here's what he had to say:

"The efficiency of the hubset varies linearly [with] the
shift...1:1(low)95% to 1:4.35(high)85%... Cordially, Hal Hunter"

In the low ranges, this is very comparable to a standard chain & gears
setup. Using Hal's linear statement, I would assume that a pedaler
would get about 90% effeciency in the mid-range (most of the time)...
Not bad at all, really.

IMHO, I wouldn't mind getting better efficiency (96% claimed) out of
something that has 14 gear steps like the Rohloff. To a small-wattage
motor like the human body, 6% can be a big difference.

However, more market competition in this arena can only be a good
thing and I can definitely see that CVT has it's place. I really look
forward to the day when the derailure (SP?) is gone!

GrantA said:

In a follow-up to my last post, I emailed Hal Hunter at NUPACE with my
question on effeciency and here's what he had to say:

"The efficiency of the hubset varies linearly [with] the
shift...1:1(low)95% to 1:4.35(high)85%... Cordially, Hal Hunter"

In the low ranges, this is very comparable to a standard chain & gears
setup. Using Hal's linear statement, I would assume that a pedaler
would get about 90% effeciency in the mid-range (most of the time)...
Not bad at all, really.

IMHO, I wouldn't mind getting better efficiency (96% claimed) out of
something that has 14 gear steps like the Rohloff. To a small-wattage
motor like the human body, 6% can be a big difference.

However, more market competition in this arena can only be a good
thing and I can definitely see that CVT has it's place. I really look
forward to the day when the derailure (SP?) is gone!

I don't see what is so alluring about continuous variability.
Reasonably small jumps are available, either with derailleur
gearing or with a Rohloff hub.

The Nupace hub weighs more than a Rohloff, is less efficient,
costs more, has a smaller overall range, and doesn't come in red.

Advantages (depending on your point of view) are that it fits in a
130mm-spaced frame, has continuous variability, and 36 holes.

Tom Ace

Chalo said:

Does anybody know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3690927051

Chalo Colina

Looking at the picture of this hub, something strikes me. Where is the torque arm? Any internally geared hub must have the axle braced against rotation, and flats on the axle shaft are not enough.
I am suspicious of this untill I see some reviews and test results.