10 or 12 points?

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

I am fortunate enough to have had time on dry glaciers in the French
Alps to practice various techniques on lots of different ice
structures. Not only was it fun but also it laid the foundations of
good technique. I recommend it to anyone who gets the chance.

Though note you don't need a glacier to try it yourself!

Agree, but they are great places because of all the varied slopes and
shapes to play on. Could do with one in the Peak District :-(

--

Dominic Sexton

Dominic Sexton said:

Many snow and ice techniques require a level of skill and can be
dangerous without that skill. In my opinion that doesn't make them
inherently "positively dangerous" in situations.

Dominic, you're being pedantic, unnecessarily so imho, I used the
phrase "positively dangerous" as a exactly that, a turn of phrase and
not a statement of fact.

Quoted message said:

Sure people who have
not got the experience / skills may be dangerous trying it but that

is

Quoted message said:

what practice in controlled situations is for.

That's what life is for.

Quoted message said:

People these days are far to keen on front pointing to even try other

Quoted message said:

techniques which can make travelling on the middle ground (between

steep

Quoted message said:

and not) faster and less tiring.

Well, if that's your opinion of what you've onserved then fair enough.
I'd onlty say that there's a raft of techniques best suited to
different terrain... sometimes folk can continue in "that style" when
they've actually come off the ground where it was the best for that
situation and haven't yet noticed it, so to speak.

Quoted message said:

I am fortunate enough to have had time on dry glaciers in the French
Alps to practice various techniques on lots of different ice

structures.

Quoted message said:

Not only was it fun but also it laid the foundations of good

technique.

Quoted message said:

I recommend it to anyone who gets the chance.

OK then, you paying me fare?

--
SteveO

Peter Clinch said:

But the thing to remember is that if your 10 points are a
modern design like the Grivel G10 then you've got front points

anyway.

Quoted message said:

Ironically the thing they do worse than 12 point crampons is

flatfooting!

hehehe, as you say, ironical ;-) I've often pondered the rationale
behind the "new" 10-pointers -versus- gains/losses... methinks its
marketing man at it again!

Quoted message said:

Flatfooting is under used and under practised IME and HO, especially
ascending while facing at least partially out. So is using the axe

in a

Quoted message said:

brace position. Front pointing easy slopes is intuitive but not as
secure as flatfooting and ultimately takes more out of your legs.

Both

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techniques (or a mixture) have their place, and both are possible

with

Quoted message said:

modern crampon designs be they 10 or 12 point.

Agreed, agreed, agreed and, er, yep, agreed... but its a flexibility of
approach that's gained from experience; that Catch22 for all Noddies
;-)

PS and before anyone takes the huff... its not a derisory term! :-)
--
SteveO

SteveO said:

hehehe, as you say, ironical ;-) I've often pondered the rationale
behind the "new" 10-pointers -versus- gains/losses... methinks its
marketing man at it again!

Simply the case that 10 points are a little less weight, bending work
and material cost than 12! I use G10 Wides because they fit well on my
telemark boots while other crampons tend not to. I won't be doing
serious climbing in my telemark boots, so I don't really want the extra
points. Same goes for walkers, I'd think.

More points aren't necessarily better, or the /really/ serious climbs
wouldn't use monopints!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

SteveO said:

hehehe, as you say, ironical ;-) I've often pondered the rationale
behind the "new" 10-pointers -versus- gains/losses... methinks its
marketing man at it again!

Simply the case that 10 points are a little less weight, bending work

Quoted message said:

and material cost than 12!

Yeah, costs with a littel bit of "ooh, lets make them loko the same as
the others" ;-)
Happy telemarking in your crampons Pete!! ;-)

--
SteveO