2009 ProTour teams

Tech72 said:

Agreed, it's a shame that many of the pedigreed Euro marques are no longer represented at the highest pro racing level. The multi-national (US-Asian), large scale production companies like Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cannondale, etc. are taking over. No doubt these newer brands are producing top-notch rides, but I do miss the old school names like Peugeot, Gios, Masi (the original, not the new "Masi"😉, Cinelli, among others.

I suppose that in a few years and with countless wins to their names, Giants and Cannondales will be regarded as "classics" along the same line as the Colnagos and Pinarellos.

Not to me. trekspecializedgiantcannondale are the Chevy Novas of the peloton. Mass produced....

Peter@vecchios said:

Not to me. trekspecializedgiantcannondale are the Chevy Novas of the peloton. Mass produced....

A bit off base? Or are you showing your Italian bias? Let's be more precise and characterize them as the Honda Accords or Toyota Camrys of the peloton. Mass produced...yes...and very, very good...

Had to throw my $0.02CAN in there...

tonyzackery said:

A bit off base? Or are you showing your Italian bias? Let's be more precise and characterize them as the Honda Accords or Toyota Camrys of the peloton. Mass produced...yes...and very, very good...

Had to throw my $0.02CAN in there...

Of COURSE I have a bias toward things made in the epicenter of cycling. Italia!
Mass produced and pretty good. Lots of gadgetry in all 4 brands I mentioned. Compact(Giant), BB30(C-Dale), seat masts(all of them?), 1.5 inch bottom headset bearings(trek), another propriatary BB shell(trek/specialized).

They aren't bad but not a hand made frame among any of them. Plastic, different, but not amazing.

Peter@vecchios said:

Of COURSE I have a bias toward things made in the epicenter of cycling. Italia!
Mass produced and pretty good. Lots of gadgetry in all 4 brands I mentioned. Compact(Giant), BB30(C-Dale), seat masts(all of them?), 1.5 inch bottom headset bearings(trek), another propriatary BB shell(trek/specialized).

They aren't bad but not a hand made frame among any of them. Plastic, different, but not amazing.

I'm curious, aside from a bigger hole in my wallet, what's the advantage (real, perceived or otherwise) to a handmade, non-custom size frame versus one that's mass produced? Also, what's so amazing about Italian frames, other than some of the asking prices for acquisition? Please don't go into the romantic history of Italian frames, as sentimentality contributes nada to my racing performance.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I have an enquiring mind...

Peter@vecchios said:

Not to me. trekspecializedgiantcannondale are the Chevy Novas of the peloton. Mass produced....

Mass production isn't necessarily a bad thing though. The quality of a trekspecializedgiantcannondale is as good as the equivalent Colnago and possibly even better than many of the other fancy old school brands these days. Actually, aren't some of the Colnago models manufactured in Asia nowadays? Probably in the same factories as the "mass produced" trekspecializedgiantcannondale.

Who are we kidding, Colnagos and Pinarellos (and other grand old time brands) are as "mass produced" as anything else on the market now. Their mystique from past glories and being ridden by cycling legends allows a higher price tag on the shop floor. But that is my point, at some point down the road, the trekspecializedgiantcannondale can claim the same pedigree. Regardless of your current personal rider support, the trekspecializedgiantcannondale will have names like Basso, Contador, Armstrong, DiLuca, Cippolini, Bettini, Boonen, Rogers, etc, etc, associated with them years from now, not a bad list of names. And victories ranging from the Classics to the Grand Tours.

tonyzackery said:

I'm curious, aside from a bigger hole in my wallet, what's the advantage (real, perceived or otherwise) to a handmade, non-custom size frame versus one that's mass produced? Also, what's so amazing about Italian frames, other than some of the asking prices for acquisition? Please don't go into the romantic history of Italian frames, as sentimentality contributes nada to my racing performance.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I have an enquiring mind...

Not trying to start an argument but DON'T 'go into romantic history of Italian frames, etc.'..right

What about trekspecializedgiantcannondale 'gadgets' contributes to your racing performance?

You said anything that was real, perceived or otherwise. A frame/bike off a rack, one of thousands and thousands made just doesn't blow my skirt up. Having a craftsman make my frame, and the 'perceived' advantage of that, is what I will always look for.

My Waterford is made for me, like a custom suit. Once upon a time, many european makers made their steel frames one at a time. They looked great, rode like a dream lasted forever.

If ya like the 'race for a few years, throw away and get the next whizbangery' type frame, good on ya. Not for me tho.

Tech72 said:

Mass production isn't necessarily a bad thing though. The quality of a trekspecializedgiantcannondale is as good as the equivalent Colnago and possibly even better than many of the other fancy old school brands these days. Actually, aren't some of the Colnago models manufactured in Asia nowadays? Probably in the same factories as the "mass produced" trekspecializedgiantcannondale.

Who are we kidding, Colnagos and Pinarellos (and other grand old time brands) are as "mass produced" as anything else on the market now. Their mystique from past glories and being ridden by cycling legends allows a higher price tag on the shop floor. But that is my point, at some point down the road, the trekspecializedgiantcannondale can claim the same pedigree. Regardless of your current personal rider support, the trekspecializedgiantcannondale will have names like Basso, Contador, Armstrong, DiLuca, Cippolini, Bettini, Boonen, Rogers, etc, etc, associated with them years from now, not a bad list of names. And victories ranging from the Classics to the Grand Tours.

Absolutely. Lots of sales equals deep pockets. I would love to hear what some of the pros ride when they aren't 'in their kit', and training, where they have to use the sponsorship gear. I know Andy Hampsten, from around these parts, still loves his Landshark.

Peter@vecchios said:

Not trying to start an argument but DON'T 'go into romantic history of Italian frames, etc.'..right

What about trekspecializedgiantcannondale 'gadgets' contributes to your racing performance?

You said anything that was real, perceived or otherwise. A frame/bike off a rack, one of thousands and thousands made just doesn't blow my skirt up. Having a craftsman make my frame, and the 'perceived' advantage of that, is what I will always look for.

My Waterford is made for me, like a custom suit. Once upon a time, many european makers made their steel frames one at a time. They looked great, rode like a dream lasted forever.

If ya like the 'race for a few years, throw away and get the next whizbangery' type frame, good on ya. Not for me tho.

Many US makers are seemingly taking up where the Euro makers left off. Many really beautiful and functional, hand made US made bicycle frames around today. North American hand made bicycle show showcased many.

What peeves me is the reliance on a gadget to break a frame maker out of the pack rather than an idea of quality, great ride rep. , durability. Seat masts, propriatary BB shells, compact geometry when not needed, 1.5 inch HS bearings, things like that seem to make bikes more expensive, harder to work on but don't bring anything to the cycling performance table. Same for components, wheels, handlebars, seatposts(if used), etc.

Peter@vecchios said:

Many US makers are seemingly taking up where the Euro makers left off. Many really beautiful and functional, hand made US made bicycle frames around today. North American hand made bicycle show showcased many.

What peeves me is the reliance on a gadget to break a frame maker out of the pack rather than an idea of quality, great ride rep. , durability. Seat masts, propriatary BB shells, compact geometry when not needed, 1.5 inch HS bearings, things like that seem to make bikes more expensive, harder to work on but don't bring anything to the cycling performance table. Same for components, wheels, handlebars, seatposts(if used), etc.

This is from a highly biased source, so there certainly is no objectivity. There are a lot of assumptions made about things that are "gimmicks" or "gadgets." There certainly is nothing implicitly heavenly or dreamy in a handbuilt frame. Absolutely nothing. Richard Sachs has no more technical insight than any engineer at, wait, what'd you derisively call them........ trekspecializedgiantcannondale? It so happens those manufacturers make some bikes/frames that work great for more people than you'd like to admit. Both my Moots and my Look 595 beat the riding pants off the Waterford Paramount that I had. It was just a steel bike that didn't work and wasn't worth the wait or money. FWIW the Look 595 is nearly identical in size to that Waterford. Whodda thunk it, eh Gomer? I mean that thar Frenchie bike gots a slopey top tube 'n' one of them ISP thingamabobs and is made of plastic. Jimminy willikers: how in THE hell did that go and happen? Dang.

You say you don't want to start a fight, but then you follow that statement up by slamming manufacturers and "gadgets." That's a lot like saying you won't [censored] a guy's mom while at the same time you're smearing KY all over the guy's mom's [censored].

Please, give up the "I don't want to start a fight." You might think it's workin' really well for you, but it makes sound, in the end, like some bitter old luddite, one whose time has already come and gone, talking out his ass.

I thought Vecchio's was worthy of more respect than your speak would lead someone to believe. Oh well. I guess another assumption bites the dust.

alienator said:

This is from a highly biased source, so there certainly is no objectivity. There are a lot of assumptions made about things that are "gimmicks" or "gadgets." There certainly is nothing implicitly heavenly or dreamy in a handbuilt frame. Absolutely nothing. Richard Sachs has no more technical insight than any engineer at, wait, what'd you derisively call them........ trekspecializedgiantcannondale? It so happens those manufacturers make some bikes/frames that work great for more people than you'd like to admit. Both my Moots and my Look 595 beat the riding pants off the Waterford Paramount that I had. It was just a steel bike that didn't work and wasn't worth the wait or money. FWIW the Look 595 is nearly identical in size to that Waterford. Whodda thunk it, eh Gomer? I mean that thar Frenchie bike gots a slopey top tube 'n' one of them ISP thingamabobs and is made of plastic. Jimminy willikers: how in THE hell did that go and happen? Dang.

You say you don't want to start a fight, but then you follow that statement up by slamming manufacturers and "gadgets." That's a lot like saying you won't [censored] a guy's mom while at the same time you're smearing KY all over the guy's mom's [censored].

Please, give up the "I don't want to start a fight." You might think it's workin' really well for you, but it makes sound, in the end, like some bitter old luddite, one whose time has already come and gone, talking out his ass.

I thought Vecchio's was worthy of more respect than your speak would lead someone to believe. Oh well. I guess another assumption bites the dust.

Ahh geeez, discussion group and I get to have an opinion. Not bitter but old luddite for sure. We work on anything, we specialize in service, of anything, even some new fangled french thingy with things like seat masts. We are talking about bicycles here after all. Not the merit of getting rid of slavery or mid east politics.

Is the market rife with gadgets that do nothing to make bike performance better? Sure is. Mos come from the marketing department not the racing department.

From a biased source, no objectivity? Absolutely true. I love my handbuilt Merckx MXLeader and my hand built Waterford RS(stainless)-32 and also my hand built Moots. Dreamy, heavenly. 'Engineering', who cares. I love my Rolex and would love to have a Ducati or a boat tail Alfa. Bikes here, not F-22s or EuroFighters.

Peter@vecchios said:

Ahh geeez, discussion group and I get to have an opinion. Not bitter but old luddite for sure. We work on anything, we specialize in service, of anything, even some new fangled french thingy with things like seat masts. We are talking about bicycles here after all. Not the merit of getting rid of slavery or mid east politics.

Is the market rife with gadgets that do nothing to make bike performance better? Sure is. Mos come from the marketing department not the racing department.

From a biased source, no objectivity? Absolutely true. I love my handbuilt Merckx MXLeader and my hand built Waterford RS(stainless)-32 and also my hand built Moots. Dreamy, heavenly. 'Engineering', who cares. I love my Rolex and would love to have a Ducati or a boat tail Alfa. Bikes here, not F-22s or EuroFighters.

Hey, my 'dale System6 says "Handmade in the USA" on the seatstays - so there!

tonyzackery said:

Hey, my 'dale System6 says "Handmade in the USA" on the seatstays - so there!

ok

trekspecializedgiantkona....

Peter@vecchios said:

ok

trekspecializedgiantkona....

Come on, now. You know there's hand assembly in Taiwan. It's the fact that manufacturing/labor costs are a fraction of what they are in the US...

tonyzackery said:

Come on, now. You know there's hand assembly in Taiwan. It's the fact that manufacturing/labor costs are a fraction of what they are in the US...

I know. Sometimes it's 'fun' to rattle the can. "bout bikes, afterall. Not heart-lung machine design.

Vecchio's: Your bike sucks, and we're better than you. We just don't have the spine or balls to say so out loud.

Peter@vecchios said:

What peeves me is the reliance on a gadget to break a frame maker out of the pack rather than an idea of quality, great ride rep. , durability. Seat masts, propriatary BB shells, compact geometry when not needed, 1.5 inch HS bearings, things like that seem to make bikes more expensive, harder to work on but don't bring anything to the cycling performance table. Same for components, wheels, handlebars, seatposts(if used), etc.

I dissagree that many of the new features bring nothing. OK you don't NEED them, but then the pros were riding faster than any of us in the 70s on drain pipe tubing. Hell a lot of people went faster than me on single speeds with wood rims.
On my system 6 I have BB30 and a tapered steerer. I weight just under 95kg and am 6'2, and I flex bikes a tad more than many. The increase in front end stiffness over my last bike with a 1 1'8 CF steerer increases my levels of enjoyment. OK do I go faster? Maybe but not much (on the decents) but I enjoy them more as the confidence is higher.
I used to blow the square taper BB on the last bike far too quickly, about every 5000km. I'm hoping that the larger bearings on the BB30 are tougher. The small weight save but more so the stiffness FEELS better and increases my enjoyment.
The (part) CF frame also feels much nicer to ride, and weighs a little less. This increases my enjoyment.

OK some of these new features will be next to un-noticable to some, but for me they were worth upgrading too.

As long as the bike you have does the job you want it to do to your standard, who cares what it is made of, what features it does or does not have, or how it was made or by who.

Let's continue to use Peter's vehicle analogy ("Chevy Novas of the peloton"😉 -the way he apparently sees the bike world, I should still be driving a 60s/70's
technology vehicle without air conditioning, manual roll-up windows, manual steering/brakes, one speed only windshield wipers, no rear window defogger/wiper, no anti-lock brakes, no 8way adjustable bucket seats, no cup holders, no air-bags, etc...do I really need to continue making my point??

All these accessories were simply "gadgets" when first introduced...some make it past a couple years, some don't. Thankfully, the market determines which ones continue and not mechanics.

Phill P said:

I dissagree that many of the new features bring nothing. OK you don't NEED them, but then the pros were riding faster than any of us in the 70s on drain pipe tubing. Hell a lot of people went faster than me on single speeds with wood rims.
On my system 6 I have BB30 and a tapered steerer. I weight just under 95kg and am 6'2, and I flex bikes a tad more than many. The increase in front end stiffness over my last bike with a 1 1'8 CF steerer increases my levels of enjoyment. OK do I go faster? Maybe but not much (on the decents) but I enjoy them more as the confidence is higher.
I used to blow the square taper BB on the last bike far too quickly, about every 5000km. I'm hoping that the larger bearings on the BB30 are tougher. The small weight save but more so the stiffness FEELS better and increases my enjoyment.
The (part) CF frame also feels much nicer to ride, and weighs a little less. This increases my enjoyment.

OK some of these new features will be next to un-noticable to some, but for me they were worth upgrading too.

As long as the bike you have does the job you want it to do to your standard, who cares what it is made of, what features it does or does not have, or how it was made or by who.

Some of the new features do actually provide a benefit. Chisolm doesn't know this because he doesn't want to believe that anything could be better than a Sachs or a 1972 DeRosa or summat.

Most fork flex is the result of flex in the steerer. That's a fact. The way you decrease flex in a tube is by increasing the diameter. 1 1/8" steerers and tapered steerers work to this end. ISP's are controversial but they do serve some purposes. With a leg difference and difference in hip geometry after an accident, I'm uber sensitive to saddle misalignment. With the ISP, I'm assured my saddle is aligned as straight as possible. That's made a difference in ride comfort. Chisolm wouldn't know this because it's not in his LBS manifesto.

Saying that a bicycle isn't a heart lung machine or an F-22 Raptor is a red herring, as well as an ignorant throw away statement. A carbon fiber frame requires some pretty technical knowledge to design a layup that yields the bike function you're looking for. The multitude of CF failures in the nascent years of CF bike stuff is testament to that. You just can't throw CF together.
Petey don't know this because of his paucity of materials knowledge. In Petey's world, pot steel must perform exactly as Nivacrom does. A lot o' folks remember the harsh riding aluminum bikes days. Now, for most aluminum bikes, those days are gone. Why? Someone applied some materials and engineering know-how to the aluminum bicycle frame.

If we were to distill everything down to stupidly simple, binary statements, then being a good bike mechanic is only a matter of understanding "Righty tighty, lefty loosey." I mean it's just loosening and tightening bolts and other tasks that are equally stupidly simple. So in that light, Vecchio's offers nothing over any other bike shop. You can teach a monkey "righty tighty, lefty loosey." After all, Chisolm can do it.

alienator said:

Some of the new features do actually provide a benefit. Chisolm doesn't know this because he doesn't want to believe that anything could be better than a Sachs or a 1972 DeRosa or summat.

Most fork flex is the result of flex in the steerer. That's a fact. The way you decrease flex in a tube is by increasing the diameter. 1 1/8" steerers and tapered steerers work to this end. ISP's are controversial but they do serve some purposes. With a leg difference and difference in hip geometry after an accident, I'm uber sensitive to saddle misalignment. With the ISP, I'm assured my saddle is aligned as straight as possible. That's made a difference in ride comfort. Chisolm wouldn't know this because it's not in his LBS manifesto.

Saying that a bicycle isn't a heart lung machine or an F-22 Raptor is a red herring, as well as an ignorant throw away statement. A carbon fiber frame requires some pretty technical knowledge to design a layup that yields the bike function you're looking for. The multitude of CF failures in the nascent years of CF bike stuff is testament to that. You just can't throw CF together.
Petey don't know this because of his paucity of materials knowledge. In Petey's world, pot steel must perform exactly as Nivacrom does. A lot o' folks remember the harsh riding aluminum bikes days. Now, for most aluminum bikes, those days are gone. Why? Someone applied some materials and engineering know-how to the aluminum bicycle frame.

If we were to distill everything down to stupidly simple, binary statements, then being a good bike mechanic is only a matter of understanding "Righty tighty, lefty loosey." I mean it's just loosening and tightening bolts and other tasks that are equally stupidly simple. So in that light, Vecchio's offers nothing over any other bike shop. You can teach a monkey "righty tighty, lefty loosey." After all, Chisolm can do it.

ChisHolm