3-4 days a week- win P12's?

[YMCA]

I have the time to train more, but wish not to. After 15 years in the sport, my tactical knowledge and racing experience is at a point where I would love not to have to train 20 hours a week in order to win P12's.

My question is: If I am riding a solid 3-4 days training/racing (avg 10 hours), then I am getting everything I need for my muscles to adapt correctly with plenty of rest between, just like weightlifters, but will be getting less aerobic time by missing the other 10 hours of easy/mod riding. Does anyone believe that the other 10 hours are really neccessary?

 

[frenchyge]

So, the 10 hr/wk includes your time spent racing, right? Also, do you race mainly crits, or do your goals include long RR's and/or Stage Races as well? And, you're a wicked sprinter, right?

 

[YMCA]

So, the 10 hr/wk includes your time spent racing, right? Also, do you race mainly crits, or do your goals include long RR's and/or Stage Races as well? And, you're a wicked sprinter, right?

I do mostly 90' crits with a few 80-100 mile RR's interspersed (ratio crit to RR is about 4 to 1). No stage races planned as of now, but may do a 4-6 day block somewhere along the line, as I feel stage races bring another level to your game.

No, not a wicked sprinter, far from it actually. Gotta be strong and make the winning move. Most of my wins have come solo over the years or from very small group sprints (usually going away in the last 500 meters before anybody reacts).

I've been on the 3-4 day a week training plan for the last couple months and am getting as strong as ever. Seems to help the motivation after having a day or two off and I'm more willing to put in some good efforts instead of just getting more miles.

 

[DJA]

I do mostly 90' crits with a few 80-100 mile RR's interspersed (ratio crit to RR is about 4 to 1). No stage races planned as of now, but may do a 4-6 day block somewhere along the line, as I feel stage races bring another level to your game.

No, not a wicked sprinter, far from it actually. Gotta be strong and make the winning move. Most of my wins have come solo over the years or from very small group sprints (usually going away in the last 500 meters before anybody reacts).

I've been on the 3-4 day a week training plan for the last couple months and am getting as strong as ever. Seems to help the motivation after having a day or two off and I'm more willing to put in some good efforts instead of just getting more miles.

Sound to me like your training smarter. Less time in the saddle, freasher outlook and making harder efforts when you do train. As long as your 10 hours gives the endurace you need I'm shaw that the other aspect can be covered in that time frame.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I've been on the 3-4 day a week training plan for the last couple months and am getting as strong as ever. Seems to help the motivation after having a day or two off and I'm more willing to put in some good efforts instead of just getting more miles.

How about providing a sample week? I'm sure many of us would like to see a well structured abbreviated routine that is producing results. I know I am as I'm not willing to put in the extra workout time, especially if I can do well with less. Thanks.

 

[lorrod]

I have found that taking a couple days per week off from the bike helped a ton - I was shocked at the results. It was just as much a physical improvement as it was a mental improvement - it was like, every ride I took was better overall than riding every single day. I'm not 100% certain, but doesn't Larry Nolan train less than 20 hours per week? I thought he got most of his training in by commuting to work and back. And that dude is FAST!

 

[Woofer]

I'm not 100% certain, but doesn't Larry Nolan train less than 20 hours per week? I thought he got most of his training in by commuting to work and back. And that dude is FAST!

re: most of his training by commuting - I don't think so. I've seen him on plenty of rides in the past few years on weekdays that were definitely not commutes, and when he's teaching at the EB's in past years he was doing close to 100 miles at crit speed just on Sundays in January.

 

[YMCA]

How about providing a sample week? I'm sure many of us would like to see a well structured abbreviated routine that is producing results. I know I am as I'm not willing to put in the extra workout time, especially if I can do well with less. Thanks.

Very simply:

3 tough days of 2-4 hrs
1 easy day of 2 hrs
3 days off

Tough days could include racing, full-on group rides, or solo rides with a broad mix of intensities, just like a race and those days always leave me knackered.

Tough days are always separated by an off or easy day, except for when I have to race twice on a weekend.

Not much to it, but I'm wondering if I'll be missing something by not putting in as many hours. When I was most competitive in P12's, I was riding 7-10x a week and getting 20-25 hours. But I suffered from tiredness quite often. I just can't and don't want to do that now.

Again the question would be, who thinks they can be fully competitive in P12's (Florida circuit) on 3 tough days a week (10 hrs or so) and lots of rest?

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Very simply:

3 tough days of 2-4 hrs
1 easy day of 2 hrs
3 days off

Tough days could include racing, full-on group rides, or solo rides with a broad mix of intensities, just like a race and those days always leave me knackered.

Tough days are always separated by an off or easy day, except for when I have to race twice on a weekend.

Not much to it, but I'm wondering if I'll be missing something by not putting in as many hours. When I was most competitive in P12's, I was riding 7-10x a week and getting 20-25 hours. But I suffered from tiredness quite often. I just can't and don't want to do that now.

Again the question would be, who thinks they can be fully competitive in P12's (Florida circuit) on 3 tough days a week (10 hrs or so) and lots of rest?

Well, who would think they can be fully competitive if they feel tired all of the time? That fatigue takes it's toll. My take on what you've stated so far is you may have accidentally found your ideal training load. You've stated that you're getting as strong as ever, it's helping with your motivation, and you're putting in quality miles instead of just logging them.

If it were me and I were on the bike (or in the gym) and were making the progress you've stated on half of my normal hourly load I would continue. In fact, I would continue until I ceased to make progress or that progress slowed to a point where I was no longer comfortable with the gains.

I'm not a coach and I don't race so my suggestion may be moot for a veteran racer of 15 years, but if you've found a system that after 15 years allows you to make better progress than your previous training systems I'd stick with it. I'd stick with it and try to figure out why it's working (Is it due to the extra recovery time or more quality work? A combination of the two?) And I'd probably try to fine tune it.

If at some point near the early part of the season you feel you need some additional endurance perhaps you could specialize for a few weeks and fill in the gaps just for insurance.

 

[YMCA]

Well, who would think they can be fully competitive if they feel tired all of the time? That fatigue takes it's toll. My take on what you've stated so far is you may have accidentally found your ideal training load. You've stated that you're getting as strong as ever, it's helping with your motivation, and you're putting in quality miles instead of just logging them.

If it were me and I were on the bike (or in the gym) and were making the progress you've stated on half of my normal hourly load I would continue. In fact, I would continue until I ceased to make progress or that progress slowed to a point where I was no longer comfortable with the gains.

I'm not a coach and I don't race so my suggestion may be moot for a veteran racer of 15 years, but if you've found a system that after 15 years allows you to make better progress than your previous training systems I'd stick with it. I'd stick with it and try to figure out why it's working (Is it due to the extra recovery time or more quality work? A combination of the two?) And I'd probably try to fine tune it.

If at some point near the early part of the season you feel you need some additional endurance perhaps you could specialize for a few weeks and fill in the gaps just for insurance.

Now, that was a solid answer. Guess, I'll just have to see how the P12 racing goes and maybe throw in a few blocks of extra hours along the way, if needed.

For sure, my problem with big weekly hours has always been recovery and this new system of overloading single days with complete rest the next has really taken hold so far.

I actually got some of my new idea's from Coach Carl's E-book. Also from something Adriano Baffi (great Italian pro during 80's/90's) did many years ago, where his director had him ride every other day to help with recovery (except stage races of course). And also from the bodybuilders, who never work the same muscle two days in a row.

It never seemed to make sense that we are always riding big weekly hours, even when the muscles are shot.

I was always told, "you gotta get the miles if you want to find your best". So, we would always be shooting for 20+ hours (including intensity) and be tired all the time.

Now, I get on the bike and I want to be there. My legs are recovered better and I can soar my heart rate much easier. Also, I'm already turning out some good performances at the local rides and training races, despite the lower weekly hours. Almost better than any year in my 15 year career.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Now, that was a solid answer.

I didn't really answer your question. You did that yourself.

And also from the bodybuilders, who never work the same muscle two days in a row.

Bodybuilding is a little different in that the primary goal is to tear down muscle tissue so that it can supercompensate, i.e. grow larger. Athletic prowess is not a concern in bodybuilding.

It never seemed to make sense that we are always riding big weekly hours, even when the muscles are shot.

I was always told, "you gotta get the miles if you want to find your best". So, we would always be shooting for 20+ hours (including intensity) and be tired all the time.

Tradition, perhaps. Many things in our culture are done simply because that's the way things were done in the past.

Now, I get on the bike and I want to be there.

There's the qualitative data.

My legs are recovered better and I can soar my heart rate much easier. Also, I'm already turning out some good performances at the local rides and training races, despite the lower weekly hours. Almost better than any year in my 15 year career.

And there is your quantitative data. No need to look any further for validation. It's in the numbers.


Perhaps some of the more learned posters will offer some input. I'll be curious to see what is said. I can't help but think you are on the right track.

 

[lorrod]

Now, that was a solid answer. Guess, I'll just have to see how the P12 racing goes and maybe throw in a few blocks of extra hours along the way, if needed.

For sure, my problem with big weekly hours has always been recovery and this new system of overloading single days with complete rest the next has really taken hold so far.

I actually got some of my new idea's from Coach Carl's E-book. Also from something Adriano Baffi (great Italian pro during 80's/90's) did many years ago, where his director had him ride every other day to help with recovery (except stage races of course). And also from the bodybuilders, who never work the same muscle two days in a row.

It never seemed to make sense that we are always riding big weekly hours, even when the muscles are shot.

I was always told, "you gotta get the miles if you want to find your best". So, we would always be shooting for 20+ hours (including intensity) and be tired all the time.

Now, I get on the bike and I want to be there. My legs are recovered better and I can soar my heart rate much easier. Also, I'm already turning out some good performances at the local rides and training races, despite the lower weekly hours. Almost better than any year in my 15 year career.

I'll keep you posted.

Okay, so now, you ride one day and take the very next day off of the bike? So, in that case, you're also doing harder weeks and easier weeks - one week, you would have 4 riding days & 3 rest days.....the next week you would have only 3 riding days and 4 rest days. Is this how the program is working? How do you feel when you first get on the bike after a complete day off - are you sore or stiff or anything? Do you need a longer warm-up at all?

 

[YMCA]

Okay, so now, you ride one day and take the very next day off of the bike? So, in that case, you're also doing harder weeks and easier weeks - one week, you would have 4 riding days & 3 rest days.....the next week you would have only 3 riding days and 4 rest days. Is this how the program is working? How do you feel when you first get on the bike after a complete day off - are you sore or stiff or anything? Do you need a longer warm-up at all?

No, it's 3 hard days, 3 off days and 1 easy day every week.

No particular order, as sometimes there is racing on Sat, or Sun or, both. But typically, I prefer not to have hard days back to back, unless there is a full weekend of racing or occasional stage race.

So something like
M-W-Sat = hard
Sun= easy
Tu-Th-F = off

or if racing Sat and Sun, then:
W-Sat-Sun= hard
Tues=easy
M-Th-F= off

but again, my days are a different order almost every week, it's just a matter of taking the day off, instead of riding 2-3 hours easy to moderate on "rest" days

Simple and flexible. I have no problem the day after rest days. In fact I need less time for warmup than I ever did. I used to get blocked real easily, but that was only because I was always fatigued and still recovering. A pro putting in 25-30 hours a week would need 90' to get the body going every day, due to the buildup of fatigue. I was the same way for many years, but now I feel ready within no time and can usually see my heart rate easily hitting stride within 30'.

 

[lorrod]

No, it's 3 hard days, 3 off days and 1 easy day every week.

No particular order, as sometimes there is racing on Sat, or Sun or, both. But typically, I prefer not to have hard days back to back, unless there is a full weekend of racing or occasional stage race.

So something like
M-W-Sat = hard
Sun= easy
Tu-Th-F = off

or if racing Sat and Sun, then:
W-Sat-Sun= hard
Tues=easy
M-Th-F= off

but again, my days are a different order almost every week, it's just a matter of taking the day off, instead of riding 2-3 hours easy to moderate on "rest" days

Simple and flexible. I have no problem the day after rest days. In fact I need less time for warmup than I ever did. I used to get blocked real easily, but that was only because I was always fatigued and still recovering. A pro putting in 25-30 hours a week would need 90' to get the body going every day, due to the buildup of fatigue. I was the same way for many years, but now I feel ready within no time and can usually see my heart rate easily hitting stride within 30'.

This sounds great to me. 3 hard days, 1 easy riding day, 3 days off - flexible week-to-week schedule so you can keep your options open. I would be anxious to hear your overall results from this during the racing season. It seems like a smarter way to train than putting in 20+ hours per week on the bike. If you can be competitive racing with the P12s, that would be perfect.

I have always found that the hard day/easy day schedule worked for me. However, the problem I always ran into were back-to-back hard days, or racing days - or going on fun group rides day after day, which turn out to be mini-races at times. But the flexibility that you are utilizing sounds awesome. And if it works for racing in that category, all the better.

 

[velomanct]

I think 10hrs a week is enough to keep you in race shape, DURING race season. As long as you are not racing any big stage races.
In fact, I have raced respectably in p/1/2 races while doing 10hr weeks. Rest is good, especially when you are doing lots of intensity.

But I still think it would be wise to put in more aerobic/endurance miles in the pre-season. base miles are good.

 

[YMCA]

I think 10hrs a week is enough to keep you in race shape, DURING race season. As long as you are not racing any big stage races.
In fact, I have raced respectably in p/1/2 races while doing 10hr weeks. Rest is good, especially when you are doing lots of intensity.

But I still think it would be wise to put in more aerobic/endurance miles in the pre-season. base miles are good.

I hear you on the extra base miles in pre-season, but I can just up the number of hours I want to ride on one of those harder days and sometimes get 15 hours in 3-4 rides instead of 10. I'd still rather not train more than 3-4 days, as my life is full with family responsibilites and I love getting a complete break with days off.

I still feel like my performances at the races will equal what I was doing when I trained much more, but than that is still to be seen. So far, so good at the few of group rides and training races I have been to.

My main season goes from Feb-June, so I have to prepare well now and have been doing rides that leave me knackered, but I recover and do it again after 1-2 days rest.

 

[Catabolic_Jones]

Basically, last year I did mostly 15-20 hr weeks, 6 days training. Some weeks were up toward 25 hours.

This year I'm doing 5 days on the bike, closer to 12 to 15 hours and definitely developing faster. The only question for me is weight. I feel, however, that it is preferable to be a couple of pounds heavier, and happier, and more motivated, than to be lean, with a shot-out nervous system that isn't responding to a heavy training load.

The thing is that everyone will tell you something different; it's just getting out there and seeing what makes you faster.

ALSO: To me -- and it seems to be the truth for you, too -- being happier is also important. Having balance, connections to friends and family, and something outside the bicycle.

 

[velomanct]

I hear you on the extra base miles in pre-season, but I can just up the number of hours I want to ride on one of those harder days and sometimes get 15 hours in 3-4 rides instead of 10. I'd still rather not train more than 3-4 days, as my life is full with family responsibilites and I love getting a complete break with days off.

I still feel like my performances at the races will equal what I was doing when I trained much more, but than that is still to be seen. So far, so good at the few of group rides and training races I have been to.

My main season goes from Feb-June, so I have to prepare well now and have been doing rides that leave me knackered, but I recover and do it again after 1-2 days rest.

I do like taking full days off too, espeically when I am doing more intensity. I have a hard time recovering, and don't really enjoy riding as much when my legs are beat. It would be awesome to have good legs everyday.

 

[whoawhoa]

Basically, last year I did mostly 15-20 hr weeks, 6 days training. Some weeks were up toward 25 hours.

This year I'm doing 5 days on the bike, closer to 12 to 15 hours and definitely developing faster. The only question for me is weight. I feel, however, that it is preferable to be a couple of pounds heavier, and happier, and more motivated, than to be lean, with a shot-out nervous system that isn't responding to a heavy training load.

The thing is that everyone will tell you something different; it's just getting out there and seeing what makes you faster.

ALSO: To me -- and it seems to be the truth for you, too -- being happier is also important. Having balance, connections to friends and family, and something outside the bicycle.

When you say you trained for six days a week, you mean all solid training right? Not including recovery rides? What category do you race?

 

[lorrod]

Hey, I just wanted to check to see how this program was working so far with the season now in session....or almost in session. How are the 4 days on, 3 days off working? Are you still doing 3 days higher intensity at 3-4 hours, 1 day 2-hour recovery spin, and 3 days completely off? How have the races gone so far? I'm really curious to hear how things have gone because I think for some of us family guys, this kind of training would be ideal.