45 min or more?

"Marius Löwenzahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

is a 45 min swim-training enough for a good condition and building muscle?

it depends on your workout intensity. Are you using fins and/or paddles? How hard are you working at
it? Are you watching your heart rate? You probably want it to be in the 70-80% range throughout most
of the workout, with a few intervals pushing it little bit higher. Your heart rate is probably one
of the better ways to measure if you're working hard enough.

Using paddles and fins for a portion of the workout will add more of the muscle-building resistance.

What kind of condition are you starting with?

Quoted message said:

Using paddles and fins for a portion of the workout will add more of the muscle-building
resistance.

This advice should be followed by a clear statement about being VERY careful with not overusing
paddles. Personally I see paddles and fins primarely as technique related devices and very far down
the list as a muscle-building solution. Overuse of for example paddles with an improper stroke
technique can result in serious and painful shoulder injuries. Paddles should be used with extreme
care! At any sign of pain, you are doing something wrong...

Best regards,

Fedde

"Federico Engler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Using paddles and fins for a portion of the workout will add more of the muscle-building
resistance.

This advice should be followed by a clear statement about being VERY

careful

Quoted message said:

with not overusing paddles. Personally I see paddles and fins primarely as technique related
devices and very far down the list as a muscle-building solution.

I've read in several places that they are primarily for building strength (adding resistance). I've
heard couple of coaches say that too. Hmmm. Perhaps little of both???

Quoted message said:

Overuse of for example paddles with an improper stroke technique can result in

serious

Quoted message said:

and painful shoulder injuries. Paddles should be used with extreme care! At

any

Quoted message said:

sign of pain, you are doing something wrong...

I think would be the best if Marius, and whomever is not working with a coach, to at least pick up a
book that has some workouts in it, that will tell him exactly when to use the fins, paddles and
pull-buoy's, rather than trying to figure it out on their own. In our case, we use fins and paddles
between 10% and at most 25% of the workout.

Marius Löwenzahn said:

is a 45 min swim-training enough for a good condition and building muscle?

Define "Good Condition and Building Muscle".

It all depends on where you start and what your goals are.

~Matt

In article said:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:40:37 +0200, "Marius Löwenzahn"

Quoted message said:

is a 45 min swim-training enough for a good condition and building muscle?

Define "Good Condition and Building Muscle".

It all depends on where you start and what your goals are.

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the weight room.

But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

(Jason O'Rourke) said:

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the weight room.

I've put on quite a bit in just over a year of swimming. At a rough guess, about 7kg (15 lbs)
of muscle.

Quoted message said:

But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

I was wiry before. I'm heading towards beefy. My waistline is trimmer, too. People ask me if I lift
weights. So YMMV.
--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Excuse the munged address. My last e-mail address was killed by spammers.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6xG9b.38047$S_.5823@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

I've read in several places that they are primarily for building strength (adding resistance).
I've heard couple of coaches say that too. Hmmm. Perhaps little of both???

It is a bit of both, but the strength part requires the technique part to be correct :-) My personal
opinion is that paddles are more for a bit more "advanced" swimmers than for beginners. As a
beginner it is very easy to get too attached to paddles and fins as they provide so much extra help.
The beginner gets used to this and slows down his/her progress, because he/she is not learning to
swim without these devices to start with.

Quoted message said:

I think would be the best if Marius, and whomever is not working with a coach, to at least pick up
a book that has some workouts in it, that will tell him exactly when to use the fins, paddles and
pull-buoy's, rather

than

Quoted message said:

trying to figure it out on their own.

I couldn't agree better. My feeling is that most books advice people to just use fins and paddles
for a small part of their session. 10% or just a bit more. Fins are very often recommended in
combination with stroke drills where a slower arm stroke during the technique session would result
in the swimmer sinking more than he/she normally would do.

Best regards,

Fedde

Helgi Briem said:

(Jason O'Rourke) said:

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the
weight room.

I've put on quite a bit in just over a year of swimming. At a rough guess, about 7kg (15 lbs)
of muscle.

Quoted message said:

But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

I was wiry before. I'm heading towards beefy. My waistline is trimmer, too. People ask me if I
lift weights. So YMMV.

How do you know it is muscle? I'm guessing that most of it is glycogen/water.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

Federico Engler said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6xG9b.38047$S_.5823@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

I've read in several places that they are primarily for building strength (adding resistance).
I've heard couple of coaches say that too. Hmmm. Perhaps little of both???

It is a bit of both, but the strength part requires the technique part to be correct :-) My
personal opinion is that paddles are more for a bit more "advanced" swimmers than for beginners.
As a beginner it is very easy to get too attached to paddles and fins as they provide so much
extra help. The beginner gets used to this and slows down his/her progress, because he/she is not
learning to swim without these devices to start with.

I don't think paddles provide much extra help for beginners. First, they will find it difficult to
control them; they will slide to one side or the other. Second, their shoulders will tire out very
quickly, and tendon damage will be the likely result.

Flippers do help the beginner get his body position right, and they allow him to maintain correct
body position for a longer time. So paddles should be used sparingly, even by advanced swimmers.
Flippers should be used according to taste.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think would be the best if Marius, and whomever is not working with a coach, to at least pick
up a book that has some workouts in it, that will tell him exactly when to use the fins, paddles
and pull-buoy's, rather

than

Quoted message said:

trying to figure it out on their own.

I couldn't agree better. My feeling is that most books advice people to just use fins and paddles
for a small part of their session. 10% or just a bit more. Fins are very often recommended in
combination with stroke drills where a slower arm stroke during the technique session would result
in the swimmer sinking more than he/she normally would do.

Fins are often used for 50% of a session or more, at least my coaches have used them that way. My
experience has been that many masters swimmers prefer to train with them nearly all the time. If
there are no knee or hip problems, and for most folks there won't be, then using fins is a way to
increase the enjoyment of swimming, for those so inclined. They also increase leg strength and back
and abdoment strength, if you kick with them.

marting

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

Martin W. Smith said:

Helgi Briem said:

(Jason O'Rourke) said:

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the
weight room.

I've put on quite a bit in just over a year of swimming. At a rough guess, about 7kg (15 lbs) of
muscle.

Quoted message said:

But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

I was wiry before. I'm heading towards beefy. My waistline is trimmer, too. People ask me if I
lift weights. So YMMV.

How do you know it is muscle? I'm guessing that most of it is glycogen/water.

It could be water, I suppose. The body maxes out at about 600g of glycogen with heavy carbo loading,
so its not that. It looks like muscle. I went to the gym for the first time recently to try my hand
at a little weight lifting. The weights/reps the coach picked for me were spot on except for
tricep/shoulder/lat exercises. Those were ridiculously easy.
--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Excuse the munged address. My last e-mail address was killed by spammers.

Helgi Briem said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Helgi Briem said:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:09:23 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Jason O'Rourke) wrote:

>Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the weight
>room.

I've put on quite a bit in just over a year of swimming. At a rough guess, about 7kg (15 lbs)
of muscle.

>But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

I was wiry before. I'm heading towards beefy. My waistline is trimmer, too. People ask me if I
lift weights. So YMMV.

How do you know it is muscle? I'm guessing that most of it is glycogen/water.

It could be water, I suppose. The body maxes out at about 600g of glycogen with heavy carbo
loading, so its not that.

As I understand it, for every gram of glycogen there is 4 grams of water, so 3 of the 7 kgs could be
glycogen/water, and it would be stored in the muscles, making them look bigger maybe?

Quoted message said:

It looks like muscle. I went to the gym for the first time recently to try my hand at a little
weight lifting. The weights/reps the coach picked for me were spot on except for
tricep/shoulder/lat exercises. Those were ridiculously easy.

It's just that swimming doesn't build beefy muscles, unless you had almost no muscle to begin with,
in which case any muscle would be beefy. Swimming would build muscle that has endurance, but not
great strength. Did you do, say, ten sets of ten reps of each weight exercise, or did you do, sys,
three sets of five reps at a relatively high weight? If the latter, you would probably be burning
the glycogen, in which case you wouldn't need a lot of new strength. If you were doing ten sets of
ten reps, you would need the strength you got from swimming.

martin

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

(Jason O'Rourke) said:

In article said:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:40:37 +0200, "Marius Löwenzahn"

Quoted message said:

is a 45 min swim-training enough for a good condition and building muscle?

Define "Good Condition and Building Muscle".

It all depends on where you start and what your goals are.

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the weight room.

I believe "building muscle" (Adding mass/size) is very genetically determined. More so even
than predisposition to training effect. I've seen people that appear to get bigger by
looking at weights. OTOH I've seen people that work out religiously adn gain little or no
mass. As far as "building Muslce" and running. Running for the most part is not a power
sport. therefore running alone has a tendaency to not build muscle. However I can say from
experiance that running hills, hill repeats sprints etc do add muslce mass. Cycling on the
other hand is very much a power sport. Someone predisposed to gaining "muslce mass" will get
thnider thighs from cycling. I think swimming is somewhere inbetween running and cycling.
More power than running less than cycling. So someone who is predisposed to "muscle gain"
will gain size from swimming. Probably not as much as lifting but some.

Just My opinion and experiance

~Matt

Quoted message said:

But it can lead to great definition of the muscle mass one does have.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

"Jason O'Rourke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:40:37 +0200, "Marius Löwenzahn"

Quoted message said:

is a 45 min swim-training enough for a good condition and building

muscle?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Define "Good Condition and Building Muscle".

It all depends on where you start and what your goals are.

Runners rarely build muscle; I expect swimmers do not fare better without time in the weight room.

Not in my swimming case. I'm gaining muscle left and right. But, swimming will not give a person the
heavyweight bodybuilder kind of a muscle, but it can make a person very nicely muscular.

"Federico Engler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6xG9b.38047$S_.5823@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

I've read in several places that they are primarily for building

strength

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(adding resistance). I've heard couple of coaches say that too. Hmmm. Perhaps little of both???

It is a bit of both, but the strength part requires the technique part to be correct :-) My
personal opinion is that paddles are more for a bit more "advanced" swimmers than for beginners.
As a beginner it is very easy to get too attached to paddles and fins as they provide so much
extra help. The beginner gets used to this and slows down his/her

progress,

Quoted message said:

because he/she is not learning to swim without these devices to start

with.

When I first started, I wasn't strong enough to use paddles for pulling any more than 100-200
meters. Now I can do 600M drills,.. about 10 weeks later. Still need to build up more strength
before I add the drag a pully creates. I put on my fins and don't point my feet on purpose (to an
extent), to add some drag. And for a while, swimming without fins for more than a 500-1000 m was too
taxing on my arms. Now I can do the whole worlout, usually around 3000 without fins. I've weaned
myself from using fins all the time about 3 weeks ago.

My legs are much stronger... Enough for the cardio to have a hard time keeping up when I kick.

I still have a very long way to go when it comes to cionditioning. I use fins when I do cardio or
strength sets, to increase the load. Then i take them off for the technique and other swim sets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think would be the best if Marius, and whomever is not working with a coach, to at least pick
up a book that has some workouts in it, that

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tell him exactly when to use the fins, paddles and pull-buoy's, rather

than

Quoted message said:

trying to figure it out on their own.

I couldn't agree better. My feeling is that most books advice people to just use fins and paddles
for a small part of their session. 10% or just a bit more. Fins are very often recommended in
combination with stroke drills where a slower arm stroke during the technique session would result
in the swimmer sinking more than he/she normally would do.

Best regards,

Fedde

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think paddles provide much extra help for beginners. First, they will find it difficult to
control them; they will slide to one side or the other. Second, their shoulders will tire out very
quickly, and tendon damage will be the likely result.

Your second statement just repeats what I already wrote in the first place to start with.

Quoted message said:

Flippers do help the beginner get his body position right, and they allow him to maintain correct
body position for a longer time. So paddles should be used sparingly, even by advanced swimmers.
Flippers should be used according to taste.

You are just describing the actual problem. If they learn to get that position only with the fins
on, they really get in trouble when you remove them from them. First learn how to swim right without
any external devices and only then do you start experimenting with fins and paddles.

Quoted message said:

Fins are often used for 50% of a session or more, at least my coaches have used them that way. My
experience has been that many masters swimmers prefer to train with them nearly all the time. If
there are no knee or hip problems, and for most folks there won't be, then using fins is a way to
increase the enjoyment of swimming, for those so inclined. They also increase leg strength and
back and abdoment strength, if you kick with them.

50% sounds like a VERY strange number. In the masters group I swim with only one person uses them
and that is to remove preasure from the arms due to shoulder problems. If you want to learn how to
swim with good technique, then that is done without fins or paddles. Fins and paddles are just a
part of technique drills. If you are swimming for enjoyment and have no goals to achieve a proper
and clean technique, then sure...use fins and paddles 100% of the time. But I would not call that
good swimming.

Fedde

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Federico Engler said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6xG9b.38047$S_.5823@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

I've read in several places that they are primarily for building

strength

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(adding resistance). I've heard couple of coaches say that too. Hmmm. Perhaps little of
both???

It is a bit of both, but the strength part requires the technique part

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be correct :-) My personal opinion is that paddles are more for a bit more "advanced" swimmers
than for beginners. As a beginner it is very easy to get too attached to paddles and fins as
they provide so much extra help. The beginner gets used to this and slows down his/her

progress,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because he/she is not learning to swim without these devices to start

with.

Quoted message said:

I don't think paddles provide much extra help for beginners. First, they will find it difficult to
control them; they will slide to one side or the other. Second, their shoulders will tire out very
quickly, and tendon damage will be the likely result.

Flippers do help the beginner get his body position right, and they allow him to maintain correct
body position for a longer time. So paddles should be used sparingly, even by advanced swimmers.
Flippers should be used according to taste.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think would be the best if Marius, and whomever is not working with

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

coach, to at least pick up a book that has some workouts in it, that

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tell him exactly when to use the fins, paddles and pull-buoy's, rather

than

Quoted message said:

trying to figure it out on their own.

I couldn't agree better. My feeling is that most books advice people to just use fins and
paddles for a small part of their session. 10% or just

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bit more. Fins are very often recommended in combination with stroke drills where a slower arm
stroke during the technique session would result in the swimmer sinking more than he/she
normally would do.

Fins are often used for 50% of a session or more, at least my coaches have used them that way. My
experience has been that many masters

Hmm... Our coach doesn't ask for fins any more than he asks for Paddles. Out of a typical 3000-3800M
workout, we're likely to use fins for 300-400M and paddles another 300-400M (almost nevber at the
same time), then maybe another 500M stroke drills. Then we do a variety, some days we do sprints,
other days we do distance sets, and some days we do IM sets.

My times started speeding up more as I swim without fins more.

Quoted message said:

swimmers prefer to train with them nearly all the time. If there are no knee or hip problems, and
for most folks there won't be, then using fins is a way to increase the enjoyment of swimming, for
those so inclined. They also increase leg strength and back and abdoment strength, if you kick
with them.

marting

--
Draft Wesley Clark for President! www.DraftWesleyClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

Martin W. Smith said:

It's just that swimming doesn't build beefy muscles,

A lot of the swimmers I see at swim meets look beefy. A lot bigger than me, most of them. The
top-class men are genarally about 18-21 years old and weigh between 90-100 on average, I'd guess.
Not weight-lifter big, certainly, but solid. But maybe they lift weights too.

Quoted message said:

unless you had almost no muscle to begin with, in which case any muscle would be beefy.

No, I used to be pretty fit once, but wiry, quick fit, not particularly muscular. When I was 19 I
bench pressed 90kg single rep on a machine at a bodyweight of 70kg. About 80 with free weights, but
I only tried weightlifting a couple of times at school. I didn't weight train.

Quoted message said:

Swimming would build muscle that has endurance, but not great strength. Did you do, say, ten sets
of ten reps of each weight exercise, or did you do, sys, three sets of five reps at a relatively
high weight?

One set of 12. I am just starting out. 12 was near my limit for some of the exercises, way
off for some.

Quoted message said:

If the latter, you would probably be burning the glycogen, in which case you wouldn't need a lot of
new strength. If you were doing ten sets of ten reps, you would need the strength you got from
swimming.

I didn't see muscle gains from swimming until I added sprints to my workout. They scare me a bit
because I get warning twinges here and there when I go full blast, but boy, do they feel good! I try
and do 4x25m free and 4x25m breast after my usual workout about twice a week.
--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Excuse the munged address. My last e-mail address was killed by spammers.

Federico Engler said:

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think paddles provide much extra help for beginners. First, they will find it difficult
to control them; they will slide to one side or the other. Second, their shoulders will tire out
very quickly, and tendon damage will be the likely result.

Your second statement just repeats what I already wrote in the first place to start with.

Quoted message said:

Flippers do help the beginner get his body position right, and they allow him to maintain
correct body position for a longer time. So paddles should be used sparingly, even by advanced
swimmers. Flippers should be used according to taste.

You are just describing the actual problem. If they learn to get that position only with the fins
on, they really get in trouble when you remove them from them. First learn how to swim right
without any external devices and only then do you start experimenting with fins and paddles.

I've never seen anyone get in trouble when they remove their fins. I'm not suggesting that people
should learn to swim with fins on. There is a lot of variation in swimming "right". Pretty much
everybody swims "right", with respect to body position, by the time they have learn to move
comfortably through the water doing the stroke, assuming their legs don't sink badly. Given that
situation, I think fusing fins can do no harm, except, of course, that they can cause knee and hip
problems for some people.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fins are often used for 50% of a session or more, at least my coaches have used them that way.
My experience has been that many masters swimmers prefer to train with them nearly all the time.
If there are no knee or hip problems, and for most folks there won't be, then using fins is a
way to increase the enjoyment of swimming, for those so inclined. They also increase leg
strength and back and abdoment strength, if you kick with them.

50% sounds like a VERY strange number. In the masters group I swim with only one person uses them
and that is to remove preasure from the arms due to shoulder problems. If you want to learn how to
swim with good technique, then that is done without fins or paddles.

Well, I know that to be false, since several very good swim coaches I have swam for use fins in
their training sessions quite a lot. Using fins does not cause you to learn to swim the wrong way.

Quoted message said:

Fins and paddles are just a part of technique drills.

No, they aren't. Both increase strength significantly.

Quoted message said:

If you are swimming for enjoyment and have no goals to achieve a proper and clean technique, then
sure...use fins and paddles 100% of the time. But I would not call that good swimming.

...in your opinion. I accept it as your opinion, but I wouldn't want you coaching my kids, if
I had kids.

martin

--
Wesley Clark for President www.AmericansForClark.com

Martin Smith email: [email hidden]

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lbrab.40213$S_.36710@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

When I first started, I wasn't strong enough to use paddles for pulling

any

Quoted message said:

more than 100-200 meters. Now I can do 600M drills,.. about 10 weeks

later.

Quoted message said:

Still need to build up more strength before I add the drag a pully

creates.

Quoted message said:

I put on my fins and don't point my feet on purpose (to an extent), to add some drag. And for a
while, swimming without fins for more than a 500-1000 m was too taxing on my arms. Now I can do
the whole worlout, usually around 3000 without fins. I've weaned myself from using fins all the
time about 3

weeks

Quoted message said:

ago.

My legs are much stronger... Enough for the cardio to have a hard time keeping up when I kick.

Way to go, girl! :-)

Fedde