5K time trial report

Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming towards for
Edinburgh??

Anthony.

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Okay, I know it's not a proper race but we had our monthly
5K club TT last night and I had a good run so I'm going to
inflict it on you.

We're used to it by now.

Quoted message said:

I'm now into week 2 of my taper to the Edinburgh marathon
(13th June) and I've been trying to fit in a bit of speed
work in the last week or two. Too little too late no doubt
but better late than never. ;-)

I'm still not entirely comfortable with thinking of myself
as a regular sub-20 runner and for the last few 5Ks I've
been aiming to hit the first K in 4:00 and then picking up
the pace over the subsequent kilometers. It's worked
pretty well for me and each month I find myself
overhauling the club hares who fly off too fast.

Last night, the first K felt a little faster than usual
(but tolerably so) and I when I looked at my watch and saw
3:53. I didn't panic as the pace felt sustainable. The
next three splits bore this out as they were 3:54,
3:52 and 3:53.

The last kilometre was into a strong headwind which was
whipping sand up off the beach. I'd been chasing the 2nd
place man (10 years my senior!) the whole way and as we
reached the 4.5K point, I at last managed to overhaul him.
I have beaten him before

Admitting to assaulting an old man. I'm ashamed of you
Timothy.

Quoted message said:

but only when he's been injured

Ahh now the irish in you comes out. Beating a crippled
old man yet!

Quoted message said:

so it was much more satisfying to beat him when he
was running.

Of course he'd run from a younger bullie like you.

Quoted message said:

The headwind (and possibly the knowledge that a PB was in
the bag

How do you fit a whole pipe band in a bag?

Quoted message said:

With that big a buffer, *now* I feel like a regular
guy. ;-)

Tim

as a regular guy.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim Downie said:

Okay, I know it's not a proper race but we had our monthly
5K club TT last night and I had a good run so I'm going to
inflict it on you.

I'm now into week 2 of my taper to the Edinburgh marathon
(13th June) and I've been trying to fit in a bit of speed
work in the last week or two. Too little too late no doubt
but better late than never. ;-)

I'm still not entirely comfortable with thinking of myself
as a regular sub-20 runner and for the last few 5Ks I've
been aiming to hit the first K in 4:00 and then picking up
the pace over the subsequent kilometers. It's worked
pretty well for me and each month I find myself
overhauling the club hares who fly off too fast.

Last night, the first K felt a little faster than usual
(but tolerably so) and I when I looked at my watch and saw
3:53. I didn't panic as the pace felt sustainable. The
next three splits bore this out as they were 3:54,
3:52 and 3:53.

The last kilometre was into a strong headwind which was
whipping sand up off the beach. I'd been chasing the 2nd
place man (10 years my senior!) the whole way and as we
reached the 4.5K point, I at last managed to overhaul him.
I have beaten him before but only when he's been injured
so it was much more satisfying to beat him when he was
running well. The headwind (and possibly the knowledge
that a PB was in the bag so to speak) meant that I ran a
slow final kilometre (4:02) that I'm a bit disappointed
with but it was still great to cross the line in 19:35, a
full 15 seconds better than this time last month.

With that big a buffer, *now* I feel like a regular sub-20
guy. ;-)

Tim

[censored].... sub-20.... sub 4:00 km's.... i can't even fathom
this. not in MY world. i'm just chipping away, bringing it
down to 4:25 km's recently.

nice going, though!

Cam

Anthony said:

Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming towards
for Edinburgh??

Good question. Given all the talk about race time
prediction, I've been running my time through a few
programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to
3:24 which isn't enormously helpful. On a flatter course,
I'm pretty sure a
4:15 wouldn't be too hard and it's one I'd like to reach as
it would give me a "good for age" entry in to next year's
London marathon. Unfortunately, Edinburgh isn't a flat
course so it may not be so easy but I think it's going to
be my target time nonetheless.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

onemarathon said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

[censored].... sub-20.... sub 4:00 km's.... i can't even fathom
this. not in MY world. i'm just chipping away, bringing it
down to 4:25 km's recently.

Just keep chipping, it'll come. A bit of marathon training
doesn't go amiss though! ;-)

If I can do it at 47, I'm sure you'll get there too.

Quoted message said:

nice going, though!

Thanks.

Tim
--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

Tim Downie said:

Anthony said:

Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming towards
for Edinburgh??

Good question. Given all the talk about race time
prediction, I've been running my time through a few
programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to
3:24 which isn't enormously helpful.

WAVA gives 3:11 for a 30yo male. Faster if you're older.
Remember to take weather and hills into account though. I
think your 3:15 target is reasonable, though if the weather
is bad you may be (a lot) slower.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim Downie said:

onemarathon said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

[censored].... sub-20.... sub 4:00 km's.... i can't even
fathom this. not in MY world. i'm just chipping away,
bringing it down to 4:25 km's recently.

Just keep chipping, it'll come. A bit of marathon training
doesn't go amiss though! ;-)

If I can do it at 47, I'm sure you'll get there too.

Quoted message said:

nice going, though!

Thanks.

Tim

funny you should mention the marathon training helping,
because back when i was doing that a few years back, it
actually slowed me down in 5 and 10k races. i felt i was
training myself to run slower. i guess it varies from one
person to another how it'll help... or not.

Cam

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Tim Downie said:

Anthony said:

Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming towards
for Edinburgh??

Good question. Given all the talk about race time
prediction, I've been running my time through a few
programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to 3:24 which
isn't enormously helpful.

WAVA gives 3:11 for a 30yo male. Faster if you're older.

I've never seen a race time predictor that factors in age.
Which one did you use?

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim Downie said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Tim Downie said:

Anthony wrote:
> Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming
> towards for Edinburgh??

Good question. Given all the talk about race time
prediction, I've been running my time through a few
programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to 3:24 which
isn't enormously helpful.

WAVA gives 3:11 for a 30yo male. Faster if you're older.

I've never seen a race time predictor that factors in age.
Which one did you use?

personal.rdg.ac.ukwavalOpen ↗
ookup.html

The premise is that your speed as a fraction of WR for
your age group is fairly constant across the range of
distances. On the other hand, it isn't the same person who
did (or could) set the WR for your age group across all
those distances. So, as always, some hedging is necessary.

For you looking at 5k vs. marathon, keys are:
* are you a high anaerobic capacity runner (not a whole lot
of effect here, but very large for using the mile, and not
entirely negligable even at 5k). If you are, your marathon
time will be worse than predicted.
* are you a high VO2max-reliant runner? This can be a big
effect. The thing is, 5k in your time range is starting to
be less a VO2max race and involving more your lactic acid
tolerance (you're above the lactic accumulation point). If
you get your 5k time by having a huge VO2max, vs. being
able to run through the lactic acid, then you'll have a
bigger adjustment going out to longer distances.
* are you a high efficiency (vVO2max, lactic 'turn point',
...) runner? If so, you're liable to do as well or
somewhat better than the predictions.

Huge considerations for first marathons, and big for later
ones: Have you worked out well your requirments for:
* water
* electrolytes
* calories
* delivery means for the above (if you detest Ultima,
and that's what's on the course, things could get
very ugly).

Weather, crowds, hills, ...

The subtleties I mentioned first are good for minutes to
a few tens of minutes. The latter batch are good for
minutes per mile.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

onemarathon said:

funny you should mention the marathon training helping,
because back when i was doing that a few years back, it
actually slowed me down in 5 and 10k races. i felt i was
training myself to run slower. i guess it varies from one
person to another how it'll help... or not.

Probably depends on what sort of marathon training you're
doing, and the timing of your 5-10k races.

Heavy training will slow you down at any distance, so during
the peak phase of marathon training, you may well be slow. I
find that my middle distance times aren't all that great
when I am in the heavy phase my middle distance training.

However, assuming a reasonable quantity of speed work,
if one were to go out and run a 10k race *at the end of
the taper*, instead of a marathon, I suspect that it
wouldn't go badly.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Tim Downie said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Tim Downie said:

Anthony wrote:
> Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming
> towards for Edinburgh??

Good question. Given all the talk about race time
prediction, I've been running my time through a few
programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to 3:24 which
isn't enormously helpful.

WAVA gives 3:11 for a 30yo male. Faster if you're older.

I've never seen a race time predictor that factors in age.
Which one did you use?

WAVA tables panix.comwava.htmlOpen ↗ (also in
Bob Glover's book)

You can also use these to work out your age-adjusted times.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Robert Grumbine wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim Downie

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

On 2004-06-02, Tim Downie
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Anthony wrote:
>> Nice one Tim. So where does that have you aiming
>> towards for Edinburgh??
>
> Good question. Given all the talk about race time
> prediction, I've been running my time through a few
> programs. Predicted times range from 3:07 to 3:24 which
> isn't enormously helpful.

WAVA gives 3:11 for a 30yo male. Faster if you're older.

I've never seen a race time predictor that factors in age.
Which one did you use?

personal.rdg.ac.ukwavaloOpen ↗
okup.html

The premise is that your speed as a fraction of WR for
your age group is fairly constant across the range of
distances. On the other hand, it isn't the same person
who did (or could) set the WR for your age group across
all those distances. So, as always, some hedging is
necessary.

For you looking at 5k vs. marathon, keys are:
* are you a high anaerobic capacity runner (not a whole lot
of effect here, but very large for using the mile, and
not entirely negligable even at 5k). If you are, your
marathon time will be worse than predicted.
* are you a high VO2max-reliant runner? This can be a big
effect. The thing is, 5k in your time range is starting
to be less a VO2max race and involving more your lactic
acid tolerance (you're above the lactic accumulation
point). If you get your 5k time by having a huge VO2max,
vs. being able to run through the lactic acid, then
you'll have a bigger adjustment going out to longer
distances.
* are you a high efficiency (vVO2max, lactic 'turn point',
...) runner? If so, you're liable to do as well or
somewhat better than the predictions.

Excellent points. I rely heavily on anerobic capacity at
shorter distances. Until I was 14 I never ran more than a
few hundred yards, though I would do that all afternoon
sometimes playing wide-reciever in pickup football games.
When I started soccer I found out my endurance sucked and
I've always been a better sprinter than long distance
runner. Even with my predominant fast-twitch physiology, I
still got into running longer distances and did various road
races from 5k to 1/2 marathon. My 10k time in my prime was
about 41:30 mins. I once ran the roosa gap roller coaster in
about 1:26; it was like 12 miles with a mountain to climb.
Most recently, in 2000 I got in the best shape of my recent
life doing hill intervals on the bike and I did a biathlon
5k run / 20k bike / 5k run in about 1:18. the 5k portions
were 20:45 and 20:55 respectively. During all these races I
didn't enjoy myself at all - I consider road racing one of
the most painful things I've ever done. My reliance on
anerobic capacity is very high in these races.

When I get in the woods though I don't mind going hard and
I've raced fairly well in some years in orienteering races,
even beating the US champion one day many years ago when he
got a bit more lost than me. Once I got into trail running
my desire to run a marathon evaporated almost entirely, and
the only reason I would run one now would be to qualify for
the escarpment trail run (30km northern catskills). I don't
really know what my best marathon time would be at this
point and I'm not going to race THAT hard for over 3 hours
to find out. If I can do 4 hours I can qualify for
escarpment. Running trail races of 50km or longer appeal to
me because I think its more of a core challenge to the body
- meaning that you have to exist and eat and drink in that
state of moving your body over natural terrain for hour
after hour. You're on your own in the environment. Ideally
I'd like to get to a place where I can go hit a trail and
jam all day, or explore a wide area with no time limit or
worry of running out of gas. I can run for a few hours on
trails and love it, while running on roads for hours is an
awful experience for me lol.

Quoted message said:

Huge considerations for first marathons, and big for
later ones: Have you worked out well your
requirments for:
* water
* electrolytes
* calories
* delivery means for the above (if you detest Ultima, and
that's what's on the course, things could get very
ugly).

Weather, crowds, hills, ...

The subtleties I mentioned first are good for minutes to
a few tens of minutes. The latter batch are good for
minutes per mile.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs
and amateur

activities notes and links.

Quoted message said:

Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite
matters with too

much

Quoted message said:

evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than

they

Quoted message said:

would be had they been presented in a more abstruse
manner." Two New

Sciences

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

However, assuming a reasonable quantity of speed work, if
one were to go out and run a 10k race *at the end of the
taper*, instead of a marathon, I suspect that it wouldn't
go badly.

There´s a fairly common belief (backed by a wealth of
personal anecdotes) among runners here that three
weeks after the marathon is often an excellent time to
run a 10K PB.

OTOH since 10K has always been a rather underappreciated
event among citizen racers here, few runners have ever
specifically trained for it. Where 10K is more in the center
of ambition, experiences probably differ.

Anders

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Once I got into trail running my desire to run a
marathon evaporated almost entirely,

and

Quoted message said:

the only reason I would run one now would be to
qualify for the

escarpment

Quoted message said:

trail run (30km northern catskills).

What? It's a dinky 30k, 18.6 miles. A walk in the park. Ok,
it has 10,000 feet of up and respective down over 5
mountains with the worst footing of rocks and roots you will
ever probably run on. The rocks and roots are like ice if
there is even a hint of rain.

Speaking of this race,we mailed out the applications today.
280 or so applications all aiming for the 200 slots. I work
the finish line and get to see the blood.

-Doug

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Once I got into trail running my desire to run a
marathon evaporated almost entirely,

and

Quoted message said:

the only reason I would run one now would be to qualify
for the

escarpment

Quoted message said:

trail run (30km northern catskills).

What? It's a dinky 30k, 18.6 miles. A walk in the park. Ok,
it has 10,000 feet of up and respective down over 5
mountains with the worst footing of rocks and roots you
will ever probably run on. The rocks and roots are like ice
if there is even a hint of rain.

This is one of my favorite trails to hike, but haven't run
the entire way yet - too many beautiful places to stop.
10,000' really? I counted less, but that was from a contour
map. Worst footing - are you kidding? The footing is fine -
there IS a trail! For an orienteerer a trail of any kind is
like a highway.

Quoted message said:

Speaking of this race,we mailed out the applications today.
280 or so applications all aiming for the 200 slots. I work
the finish line and get to see the blood.

Yea, that would be fun to watch the finish. I know if I
tried it this year it would chew me up and spit me out... I
hope this race keeps going so I have a shot at it.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

-Doug

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Speaking of this race,we mailed out the applications
today. 280 or so applications all aiming for the 200
slots. I work the finish line and get to see the blood.

Damn, I missed it! Guess I'm still a wuss.

Quoted message said:

-Doug

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

What? It's a dinky 30k, 18.6 miles. A walk in the park.
Ok, it has 10,000 feet of up and respective down over 5
mountains with the worst

footing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of rocks and roots you will ever probably run on. The
rocks and roots

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like ice if there is even a hint of rain.

This is one of my favorite trails to hike, but haven't run
the entire

way

Quoted message said:

yet - too many beautiful places to stop. 10,000' really?
I counted

less,

Quoted message said:

but that was from a contour map.

Take a look at escarpmenttrail.comescarpmenttrail.comOpen ↗ For those
that want to see a piece of the trail take a look at the
first picture on the web page. Compared to most of the trail
this is easy part.

Worst footing - are you kidding? The

Quoted message said:

footing is fine - there IS a trail! For an orienteerer a
trail of any

kind

Quoted message said:

is like a highway.

Great attitude now get the sub 4 marathon or meet any
of the other criteria AND try to finish the race in
under 6 hours. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Yea, that would be fun to watch the finish. I know if I
tried it this

year

Quoted message said:

it would chew me up and spit me out... I hope this race
keeps going

so I

Quoted message said:

have a shot at it.

Why don't you drop in at the finish at North Lake this year.
It's an experience. I'd bribe you to help but my helpers
have to be female. Sorry, I have standards. 🙂

-DougF

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Damn, I missed it! Guess I'm still a wuss.

Big time wuss but not from not applying to the Escarpment.
Some of your Team Utopia guys came down to run the Woodstock
5 and 15k. I asked where you were and they said you were
home sleeping. I squeaked out a 7:25 ish for the 15k which
is nice and hilly. One of my two road races for the year and
a reminder that my one a month speed workout does not
fulfill my needs. 🙂

-DougF

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

What? It's a dinky 30k, 18.6 miles. A walk in the park.
Ok, it has 10,000 feet of up and respective down over 5
mountains with the worst

footing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of rocks and roots you will ever probably run on. The
rocks and roots

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like ice if there is even a hint of rain.

This is one of my favorite trails to hike, but haven't
run the entire

way

Quoted message said:

yet - too many beautiful places to stop. 10,000' really?
I counted

less,

Quoted message said:

but that was from a contour map.

Take a look at escarpmenttrail.comescarpmenttrail.comOpen ↗ For those
that want to see a piece of the trail take a look at the
first picture on the web page. Compared to most of the
trail this is easy part.

Worst footing - are you kidding? The

Quoted message said:

footing is fine - there IS a trail! For an orienteerer a
trail of any

kind

Quoted message said:

is like a highway.

Great attitude now get the sub 4 marathon or meet any of
the other criteria AND try to finish the race in under 6
hours. 🙂

I fast hiked it a few years ago with some friends in 6 1/2
hours, but we stopped alot and for lunch. This year my buddy
was dragging and we stopped alot and it took 7 1/2, but we
parked at the outside parking area so it was somewhat
longer. Yea I'd really love to run it... I'm not sure if I
have a conflict yet, but I'll come up for race day if I can
and check it out - and do some local trails for training.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yea, that would be fun to watch the finish. I know if I
tried it this

year

Quoted message said:

it would chew me up and spit me out... I hope this race
keeps going

so I

Quoted message said:

have a shot at it.

Why don't you drop in at the finish at North Lake this
year. It's an experience. I'd bribe you to help but my
helpers have to be female. Sorry, I have standards. 🙂

-DougF