90 days and counting

mike boersma said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

This type of thread makes me wonder why people continue to buy fancy
boutique wheels which come with proprietary rims and spokes, which btw
can be really expensive. Is there that much of a benefit over say a DA
or Record hub wheel with a regular rim and double-butted spokes, that
can be repaired at ANY LBS that knows how to repair wheels?

Further, what is wrong with the LBS? Why did they have to sent the
wheel back to Mavic? Couldn't they have ordered a replacement rim and
rebuilt the wheel when it arrived? Or is this one of those LBS that
doesn't know how to built wheels? If so, you really need to find
another shop....

bfd said:

mike boersma said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

This type of thread makes me wonder why people continue to buy fancy
boutique wheels which come with proprietary rims and spokes, which btw
can be really expensive. Is there that much of a benefit over say a DA
or Record hub wheel with a regular rim and double-butted spokes, that
can be repaired at ANY LBS that knows how to repair wheels?

Further, what is wrong with the LBS? Why did they have to sent the
wheel back to Mavic? Couldn't they have ordered a replacement rim and
rebuilt the wheel when it arrived? Or is this one of those LBS that
doesn't know how to built wheels? If so, you really need to find
another shop....

Heh, I'm no longer "in the business," but if I were at Mavic, unless
I'm really familiar with the wrench's competence, I'd probably not
warranty a wheel (re)built by the LBS. Similarly, if I were the
proprietor of the LBS, I'd probably avoid messing with a boutique wheel
lest I void the manufacturer's warranty.

Almost all "serious" riders I know has at least two set of wheels. At
the minimum this provides failover redundancy. If you want durable,
serviceable wheels, go with a conventional wheelset.

damyth said:

bfd said:

mike boersma said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

This type of thread makes me wonder why people continue to buy fancy
boutique wheels which come with proprietary rims and spokes, which btw
can be really expensive. Is there that much of a benefit over say a DA
or Record hub wheel with a regular rim and double-butted spokes, that
can be repaired at ANY LBS that knows how to repair wheels?

Further, what is wrong with the LBS? Why did they have to sent the
wheel back to Mavic? Couldn't they have ordered a replacement rim and
rebuilt the wheel when it arrived? Or is this one of those LBS that
doesn't know how to built wheels? If so, you really need to find
another shop....

Heh, I'm no longer "in the business," but if I were at Mavic, unless
I'm really familiar with the wrench's competence, I'd probably not
warranty a wheel (re)built by the LBS. Similarly, if I were the
proprietor of the LBS, I'd probably avoid messing with a boutique wheel
lest I void the manufacturer's warranty.

I guess the question is how do you define "warranty?" The OP sent his
Mavic boutique wheel back to Mavic. Its been 90 days and Mavic
apparently replied that it "doesn't know what's going on." Further,
his LBS claims it "doesn't know what's going on." So what do you get
with this *magic* warranty? Cluelessness? Do you expect Mavic to say,
oh our wheel got damaged, so we will send him a brand new wheel?

Its not rocket science to build wheels. IF the LBS is any good and
*knows* how to build wheels, it should be able to "replace" the damaged
rim. In fact, it may or may not need to replace the spokes, just reuse
the old ones. Actually, anybody, including the OP should be able to do
it themselves. Who knows, perhaps the OP can do a better job than
Mavic?

The problem is if the wheel requires a "special" rim or spokes. Then
you're at the mercy of the mfr and hope that it will supply those
items. Sending a wheel back to the mfr for "warranty repair work," is
as dubious as it sounds.

Quoted message said:

Almost all "serious" riders I know has at least two set of wheels. At
the minimum this provides failover redundancy. If you want durable,
serviceable wheels, go with a conventional wheelset.

Agree. But the OP is still out a wheel. Hopefully, the LBS has "proof"
that the wheel was sent back, and accepted, by Mavic and the ball
should be in its court to provide relief.

On 6 Sep 2006 10:28:53 -0700, "mike boersma" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

Sounds like somebody at the lbs should have been in touch with Mavic
sooner when the return authorization and/or response took more than a
couple of weeks to come through.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"damyth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you want durable,
serviceable wheels, go with a conventional wheelset.

The statement above is the important wisdom
to be gleaned from this thread.

BobT

mike boersma said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

Mike Boersma

Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

bfd said:

mike boersma said:

I dropped my Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL wheel at my lbs for "warranty" work
in June (the rim on the rear wheel cracked at a spoke). It is now
September and the lbs still does not have the wheel back from Mavic in
MA. I wrote to Mavic and in their reply they do not seem to know what
is going on with the wheel. The lbs also does not know what is going
on. What good is the warranty if it takes 90+ days to repair the wheel.

This type of thread makes me wonder why people continue to buy fancy
boutique wheels which come with proprietary rims and spokes, which btw
can be really expensive. Is there that much of a benefit over say a DA
or Record hub wheel with a regular rim and double-butted spokes, that
can be repaired at ANY LBS that knows how to repair wheels?

Further, what is wrong with the LBS? Why did they have to sent the
wheel back to Mavic? Couldn't they have ordered a replacement rim and
rebuilt the wheel when it arrived? Or is this one of those LBS that
doesn't know how to built wheels? If so, you really need to find

Restarts the warranty if Mavic does it...but it does take a while.
makes me think Mavic is buried with busted wheels to fix.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

Seriously, Peter, tell us what you REALLY think!

🙂

Pat

Pat Lamb said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

Seriously, Peter, tell us what you REALLY think!

🙂

Pat

Not going to Interbike this year, too frustrating..like my work-mate
says, one more external BB bearing and I'm goin' up on the building and
start a shootin'!!!

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

"What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"

From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
wheelbuilders out of business.

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

"What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"

From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
wheelbuilders out of business.

In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
hype...

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>
Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
indeed.

"What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"

From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
wheelbuilders out of business.

In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
hype...

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right but
for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built wheel to
last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a krysirium elite
in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of miles. I still
ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out of
business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
> wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
> riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
> get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from the
> wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
> see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
> some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
> makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
> indeed.
>
"What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"

From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
wheelbuilders out of business.

In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
hype...

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right but
for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built wheel to
last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a krysirium elite
in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of miles. I still
ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out of
business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

they could probably all sit in a bus together.

Frank Drackman said:

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie
masters wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are
partially right but for me there was another big reason. I could only
get a hand built wheel to last a few hundred miles before it failed.
I switched to a krysirium elite in the rear and suddenly zero problems
over thousands of miles. I still ride with a conventional wheel in
the front because I never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders
out of business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders
out of business.

Largely due to the fact that most people don't really ride that many
miles, so it doesn't matter if the wheel is good. If only 5-10% of the
wheels ever see real service, it's easier to win due to marketing and
volume than quality.

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

Precious few, even in bastions of cycling like Seattle. That's why I've
given up and build all my own. [1] The first one was okay, but not
terribly great. The second was a good build with a poor choice of rim.
The third and all the ones since have been very servicable.

[1] I know two shops I would totally trust to build my wheels, but
it's cheaper and easier just to build my own.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"This universe never did make sense, I suspect it was built on
government contract." -Zebediah J. Carter

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
>> wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
>> riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
>> get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from
>> the
>> wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
>> see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
>> some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
>> makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
>> indeed.
>>
> "What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"
>
> From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
> wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
> easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
> wheelbuilders out of business.
In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
hype...

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right
but for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built
wheel to last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a
krysirium elite in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of
miles. I still ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I
never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out
of business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

they could probably all sit in a bus together.

Which begs the next question. How many bad wheelbuilders in the U.S.?

Now if we take number of bad wheelbuilders as a percent of the total number
of wheelbuilders in the U.S., what are the chances of the average person
getting a good wheel built?

After you have a few bad custom wheels built what do you buy the next time
that you need a new wheel?

Frank Drackman said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Frank Drackman wrote:
>> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
>>> wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
>>> riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
>>> get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from
>>> the
>>> wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
>>> see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
>>> some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
>>> makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
>>> indeed.
>>>
>> "What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"
>>
>> From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
>> wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
>> easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
>> wheelbuilders out of business.
> In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
> still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
> for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
> hype...
>
I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right
but for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built
wheel to last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a
krysirium elite in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of
miles. I still ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I
never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out
of business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

they could probably all sit in a bus together.

Which begs the next question. How many bad wheelbuilders in the U.S.?

does it really matter? unfortunately, you have to assume any wheel
builder is suspect until proven otherwise. and "good" is subjective.
many are happy with a wheel that needs attention every time they take
the bike in for a tune up. personally, i want a wheel that stays true
until crashed and never otherwise needs attention at all.

Quoted message said:

Now if we take number of bad wheelbuilders as a percent of the total number
of wheelbuilders in the U.S., what are the chances of the average person
getting a good wheel built?

in my experience, not very high. i've used/met a good number over the
years, many of whom have extremely high [but somewhat misplaced]
opinions of their own ability.

Quoted message said:

After you have a few bad custom wheels built what do you buy the next time
that you need a new wheel?

you either learn to do it yourself or you buy a pre-built wheel. i own
shimano and mavic pre-built wheels and have found them to be excellent
and trouble free. only one pair of all the handbuilt wheels i've ever
used in my 30-odd years of cycling [apart from my own of course!] have
ever been so good - those built by len at the bike nook, san francisco.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

only one pair of all the handbuilt wheels i've ever
used in my 30-odd years of cycling [apart from my own of course!] have
ever been so good - those built by len at the bike nook, san francisco.

I will second Len at the Bike Nook on Taraval St. in SF. He's arguably one
of the best builders in the SF Bay Area and his labor rate is still
reasonable at $45 per wheel.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
hype...

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right but
for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built wheel to
last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a krysirium elite
in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of miles. I still
ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I never had a problem.

Did your hand built wheels come with a guarantee? Some
commercial builders provide a guarantee.

Quoted message said:

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out of
business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

I am a good wheel builder. My wheels do not fail in use.
Of course, I do not build wheels commercially.

--
Michael Press

Frank Drackman said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Frank Drackman wrote:
>> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> Be patient, get the wheel back and sell 'em...talk to a good
>>> wheelbuilder that will build you a wheelset specific to you and your
>>> riding needs that will perform the same and cost less...and if you do
>>> get pedaled and need a spoke replaced, it will take 15 minutes from
>>> the
>>> wheelbuilder. Wheels outta boxes are easy to get but time after time I
>>> see that they are simply not worth it. What they have done is drive
>>> some good wheelbuilders out of the biz, along with rim and hub
>>> makers...too bad cuz most of these wheels outta a box are crappy
>>> indeed.
>>>
>> "What they have done is drive some good wheelbuilders out of the biz"
>>
>> From my experiences there are very few good wheelbuilders. If good
>> wheelbuilders are offering a better product, at a lower price, that is
>> easier to maintain then boxed wheelsets should be driving the bad
>> wheelbuilders out of business.
> In spite of us doing the above, good product and a lower price, people
> still wander down to some of the other bike shops and buy krysiriums,
> for instance, at full $800 pop...look flashy, come with bags, lots of
> hype...
>

I know that you think that it is because of marketing, and fattie masters
wanting to be like the pros, and I am sure that you are partially right
but for me there was another big reason. I could only get a hand built
wheel to last a few hundred miles before it failed. I switched to a
krysirium elite in the rear and suddenly zero problems over thousands of
miles. I still ride with a conventional wheel in the front because I
never had a problem.

At least in my case, it wasn't marketing that put good wheelbuilders out
of business it was bad wheelbuilders that put good wheelbuilders out of
business.

I wonder how many "good" wheelbuilders there are in the U.S.?

they could probably all sit in a bus together.

Which begs the next question. How many bad wheelbuilders in the U.S.?

Now if we take number of bad wheelbuilders as a percent of the total number
of wheelbuilders in the U.S., what are the chances of the average person
getting a good wheel built?

After you have a few bad custom wheels built what do you buy the next time
that you need a new wheel?

I think the issue is not just the poor buld but also the poor
components you almost always have to buy Ksyririums are a prime example
with a really poor rear hub...and some that tought how little their
wheelSET weighs, because the front weighs not much but their rear
weighs much more.

Ya know,when I got bad service on my car, I didn't buy a different car,
I found a better wrench...