$99 700c department-store road bikes!!!

Phil said:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb2.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb3.jpg

These were three pics I took with my phone camera. I happened to see
these for a very quick second at the Target store in the Carrollwood
area in Tampa, FL.

Drop bars, aero brake levers, stem-mounted shifters (dunno if indexed
or friction), 700c wheels (unconfirmed), and an aero fork. Frame
material unknown. Women's style was $99.99. Not sure about the
men's price. Quality seems to be slightly better than the average
junker bike being sold there.

Target denotes frame size by the approximate wheel size
"appropriateness" - 20" for adolescents, 24" for early teens, 26" for
late teens and adults, hence the incorrectness.

This is a big breakthrough in bikes... I'm elated to see road bikes
that are affordable for the recreational rider. And before someone
says "That's a bike-shaped object!" I'd like to point out that this
will only ramp up the interest in road bikes, since when they come in
with those bikes, we can point out the differences between those
bikes and our bikes. Think of it as a $99 coupon for an entry level
bike at an LBS.
Any thoughts?

By the way, Fogel, if you can find one, you have a new assignment. 😉
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

--
More of my mind dribblings: http://mind-dribble.blogspot.com/
And my homepage: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb2.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb3.jpg

These were three pics I took with my phone camera. I happened to see

these

Quoted message said:

for a very quick second at the Target store in the Carrollwood area in
Tampa, FL.

Drop bars, aero brake levers, stem-mounted shifters (dunno if indexed or
friction), 700c wheels (unconfirmed), and an aero fork. Frame material
unknown. Women's style was $99.99. Not sure about the men's price.
Quality seems to be slightly better than the average junker bike being

sold

Quoted message said:

there.

Target denotes frame size by the approximate wheel size

"appropriateness" -

Quoted message said:

20" for adolescents, 24" for early teens, 26" for late teens and adults,
hence the incorrectness.

This is a big breakthrough in bikes... I'm elated to see road bikes that

are

Quoted message said:

affordable for the recreational rider. And before someone says "That's a
bike-shaped object!" I'd like to point out that this will only ramp up the
interest in road bikes, since when they come in with those bikes, we can
point out the differences between those bikes and our bikes. Think of it

as

Quoted message said:

a $99 coupon for an entry level bike at an LBS.

Any thoughts?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Interesting, I haven't seen "road bikes" in the dept stores in a while. I
might have to take a ride to the local Target and check them out. The
K-Sears and the Wal-Marts down here in the Sarasota FL area only seem to
have the MTB/ATB and the comfort cruisers for adults and the MTB/ATB and the
BMX bikes for the kiddies. While the price is very low, I would expect the
quality to be pretty low also. But like you say it may increase the
interests in roadies again.

Ken

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Yup, I have thoughts. But let's not go there.

Here's my addendum: a couple friends of mine found road bikes at Toys
'R' Us for $99. They were decent enough- aluminum frames, Shimano Sora
components, aluminum rims. They bought several once they determined
that the bikes were size-appropriate (one size fits all... hah!).

They rode them quite a bit, once the bikes were adjusted and the
lowest-possible-price bottom brackets and headsets were replaced. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

I recall that one was entered in the local cyclocross series. It even
survived the series and has been used as a parts donor for other
projects.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Yup, I have thoughts. But let's not go there.

Here's my addendum: a couple friends of mine found road bikes at Toys
'R' Us for $99. They were decent enough- aluminum frames, Shimano Sora
components, aluminum rims. They bought several once they determined
that the bikes were size-appropriate (one size fits all... hah!).

They rode them quite a bit, once the bikes were adjusted and the
lowest-possible-price bottom brackets and headsets were replaced. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

I recall that one was entered in the local cyclocross series. It even
survived the series and has been used as a parts donor for other
projects.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Yup, I have thoughts. But let's not go there.

Here's my addendum: a couple friends of mine found road bikes at Toys
'R' Us for $99. They were decent enough- aluminum frames, Shimano Sora
components, aluminum rims. They bought several once they determined
that the bikes were size-appropriate (one size fits all... hah!).

They rode them quite a bit, once the bikes were adjusted and the
lowest-possible-price bottom brackets and headsets were replaced. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

I recall that one was entered in the local cyclocross series. It even
survived the series and has been used as a parts donor for other
projects.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Yup, I have thoughts. But let's not go there.

Here's my addendum: a couple friends of mine found road bikes at Toys
'R' Us for $99. They were decent enough- aluminum frames, Shimano Sora
components, aluminum rims. They bought several once they determined
that the bikes were size-appropriate (one size fits all... hah!).

They rode them quite a bit, once the bikes were adjusted and the
lowest-possible-price bottom brackets and headsets were replaced. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

I recall that one was entered in the local cyclocross series. It even
survived the series and has been used as a parts donor for other
projects.

Jeff

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
....thehick

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
....thehick

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
....thehick

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
....thehick

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb2.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/rb3.jpg

These were three pics I took with my phone camera. I happened to see

these

Quoted message said:

for a very quick second at the Target store in the Carrollwood area in
Tampa, FL.

Alas, it must be a regional deal, related to the laws of "demand & supply" ,
up there in the Tampa region, more riders demand road bikes and target feels
the need to supply a few, but down here in the woods of Sarasota county
Florida there are NO road bikes at the target stores. I just got back from a
quick ride over there to check on this and none were to be had there.

Ken "out in the woods" roadie rider.

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
...thehick

I wouldn't be at all surprised. I recently "rebuilt" a Wal-Mart kids bike
(16" BMX-style) that had been rusting in the back yard since my older
children had outgrown it. Ultimately, nothing was left apart from the
frame. I was astonished to discover that the BB and HS were nothing more
than nylon bushings. After giving the frame a nifty spray-can paint job,
replacing the HS with a cheap but durable steel set, swapping out the BB and
crankarm (along with its tack-welded stamped-steel chainwheel), chain, stem,
bars, saddle, and tires, I ended up with a nice and durable little bike
that's a favorite of visiting kids.

I used mostly new parts -- inexpensive Pyramid-brand HS, BB, crank, and
chainwheel, and the total cost of the project was around $50 or so. More
than I paid for the bike in the first place!

frank-in-toronto said:

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

...

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
...thehick

If I'd been exaggerating, I would've said they were made out of cheese.

I didn't see the items myself, but that's how they were described to
me. You can trust that as far as you wish.

Jeff

frank-in-toronto said:

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?

Quite possible. I recall there being a solid nylon bearing on some brand
of headset from the mid-to-late '70s. It wasn't really great, but it
worked, since the headset did not have to move much. The "bearing" was a
nylon doughnut that fit in where the ball bearings would be. Add some
grease and it'll work.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?
...thehick

20 some years ago I designed and built fatigue test fixtures using Teflon
bushings. I used them where the amount of motion was very small and keeping
a bushing lubricated proved impossible. They are also used for tie rod ends
and sway arms in cars for this reason. As I recall, we typically used no
lubricant and the tech sheet that came with the bushings said that
lubrication was only required of you wanted to prevent corrosion of parts
other than the bushing. The only disadvantage that I recall was the low load
capacity when compared to traditional bushing material. We were working with
loads in the 20 kip range so this load limitation may not be a problem in
bicycles. I would think that a properly selected "plastic" bushing would
work fine as a low maintenance bicycle bushing though not as well as a
roller or ball bearing.

I doubt that a $99 bike has good quality bushings though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
. Both
the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
bearings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote
is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?

Dan said:

20 some years ago I designed and built fatigue test fixtures using Teflon
bushings. I used them where the amount of motion was very small and keeping
a bushing lubricated proved impossible. They are also used for tie rod ends
and sway arms in cars for this reason. As I recall, we typically used no
lubricant and the tech sheet that came with the bushings said that
lubrication was only required of you wanted to prevent corrosion of parts
other than the bushing. The only disadvantage that I recall was the low load
capacity when compared to traditional bushing material. We were working with
loads in the 20 kip range so this load limitation may not be a problem in
bicycles. I would think that a properly selected "plastic" bushing would
work fine as a low maintenance bicycle bushing though not as well as a
roller or ball bearing.

I doubt that a $99 bike has good quality bushings though.

One of our first mailorder products was the [in]famous
Nylfor Headset of 1974- a nylon copy of a standard WHW
headset and weighed only 37 grams ( vs #1039 Record at
210g)[1].

Nylfor headsets developed a detectable 'notch' after a long
Sunday ride but magically un-deformed by the next morning. A
later improvement was the option of 5/32" nylon balls from
Harken Yacht - rustfree balls being desirable in a salt
environment. We discovered that nylon balls are a standard
high-volume item and not all that expensive. Somebody
besides weight-weenie time triallists must buy them.

Another example aluded to by David Johnson was a nylon torus
supplied by TefSeal of Oklahoma City which replaced the
3/16" balls of a #1029 Record. After the inevitable
dimple-like erosion, that simple Teflon donut worked fine-
and better dry than greased.

So in my limited experience Teflon or nylon can be a
suitable headset bearing material. Headsets don't generally
spin. As long as the fork turns easily and doesn't rock they
are all about the same.

[1]I remember those numbers distincly from our Competitive
Cycling ad
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On 3 Apr 2005 11:53:17 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>. Both
>the headset and BB appeared to be made out of machined plastic, with no
>bearings.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote
is this true? or are you exagerrating for effect?

Dan said:

20 some years ago I designed and built fatigue test fixtures using

Teflon

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bushings. I used them where the amount of motion was very small and

keeping

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a bushing lubricated proved impossible. They are also used for tie rod

ends

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and sway arms in cars for this reason. As I recall, we typically used no
lubricant and the tech sheet that came with the bushings said that
lubrication was only required of you wanted to prevent corrosion of

parts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other than the bushing. The only disadvantage that I recall was the low

load

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

capacity when compared to traditional bushing material. We were working

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

loads in the 20 kip range so this load limitation may not be a problem

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bicycles. I would think that a properly selected "plastic" bushing would
work fine as a low maintenance bicycle bushing though not as well as a
roller or ball bearing.

I doubt that a $99 bike has good quality bushings though.

One of our first mailorder products was the [in]famous
Nylfor Headset of 1974- a nylon copy of a standard WHW
headset and weighed only 37 grams ( vs #1039 Record at
210g)[1].

Nylfor headsets developed a detectable 'notch' after a long
Sunday ride but magically un-deformed by the next morning. A
later improvement was the option of 5/32" nylon balls from
Harken Yacht - rustfree balls being desirable in a salt
environment. We discovered that nylon balls are a standard
high-volume item and not all that expensive. Somebody
besides weight-weenie time triallists must buy them.

Another example aluded to by David Johnson was a nylon torus
supplied by TefSeal of Oklahoma City which replaced the
3/16" balls of a #1029 Record. After the inevitable
dimple-like erosion, that simple Teflon donut worked fine-
and better dry than greased.

So in my limited experience Teflon or nylon can be a
suitable headset bearing material. Headsets don't generally
spin. As long as the fork turns easily and doesn't rock they
are all about the same.

[1]I remember those numbers distincly from our Competitive
Cycling ad
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

It sounds like everything has been tried in bicycles. I think a Teflon
or even nylon bushing would make a good headset if properly designed.
I still want ball bearings in the drive train though. The bushings that I
used
really impressed me. The parts would only rotate a degree or two and
metal bushings would only last a few cycles until the grease squeezed
out. Since the load was reversing, they and everything else would then be
pounded to smithereens. 20,000 lbs can do a lot of pounding at 1 cps.
The first set of Teflon bushings that I used never did wear out. I
used them in a series of tests each of which were something like 1.5
million cycles. They are probably still fine and might be in the scrap heap
wrapped around rusty shafts.

Squid-in-Training said:

This is a big breakthrough in bikes... I'm elated to see road bikes that are
affordable for the recreational rider. And before someone says "That's a
bike-shaped object!" I'd like to point out that this will only ramp up the
interest in road bikes, since when they come in with those bikes, we can
point out the differences between those bikes and our bikes. Think of it as
a $99 coupon for an entry level bike at an LBS.

Any thoughts?

I have mixed feelings about it. Road bikes appeal to a limited number
of informed people, but if they're informed, this bike is not terribly
likely to engender much interest one way or the other. OTOH, if the
bike's basic ride qualities are not too bad, and if it gets bought by
someone who's a reasonable fit for the frame and who really wants and
can enjoy a road bike, then I agree that it provides an entry-level
(well, sub-basement-level, really) point for a potential road cyclist
to get into the game. The main drawback I see is the same one that
was an issue in the '70s; many of the people who buy one of these
beause it looks fast and racy will ride it just long enough to
discover that they despise the position or simply can't tolerate it,
and then park it until it goes out to the garage sale. Of course, the
same holds true for any other kind of bike, too. The principal up
side that I see is that this opens a path to a new road bike for an
established other-bike-type cyclist with a limited budget. The only
other affordable path is via used bikes, and that market can be rather
tricky at times.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:54:23 GMT, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

The principal up
side that I see is that this opens a path to a new road bike for an
established other-bike-type cyclist with a limited budget. The only
other affordable path is via used bikes, and that market can be

rather

Quoted message said:

tricky at times.

You're looking at this all wrong. The people who buy these bikes will
never ride them. In a year or 2 they'll start showing up curbside,
causing "false alarms" for us scavengers until we recognize all the
makes/models. Ideally,
people-who-are-never-going-to-ride-the-bike-they-just-bought should
spend at least enough to supply us with parts for our beaters, that
would be the only possible "up side".