A "burger" Experiment

Wayne Boatwright said:

Turkey in any form has a strong gamey taste to me that no one else
seems to taste. To me it's anything but bland. Everyone I know
likes turkey but me. I can't really explain it, except that we never
ate turkey at home while I was growing up and I wasn't exposed to it
until much later. At holidays we had roast capon instead of turkey.
The funny thing is, I like game hens, duck, and goose.

Maybe your next experiment could be a duck burger.
Asian supermarkets often have duck available
at a reasonable price.

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Thanks, Mark. I think the bacon fat is a great idea.
I'm sure the egg would also work well. I'm not sure how
the gums would react in grilled meat. Probably okay, though.

Polysaccharide gums should be about as stable
as any other polysaccharide, like starch.
Carrageenan is what McDonald's used in their
McLean Deluxe burger back in 1991. I have
no idea whether that burger or follow-on
products are still available.

Quoting from:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_n12_v25/ai_10486495/pg_2

To retain moisture when most of the natural fat
is removed, food technologists added water and
carrageenan -- a seaweed extract -- Goldblatt
said. During grilling on McDonald's dry grills,
a small amount of moisture is lost, but the
percentage of fat increases by less than a point.

McDonald's developed the beef patty with Auburn
University researchers and funding by the National
Livestock and Meat boards. The process took three
years and cost $2 million, according to McDonald's.

Why would there be a problem with a small amount of shmalsz?

I am sure it would give a much better flavour than some other stuff

Ophelia said:

Why would there be a problem with a small amount of shmalsz?

I am sure it would give a much better flavour than some other stuff

Are you having a senior moment or something?

Two posts back in this same thread said:

I was about to suggest that maybe egg or
a polysacchride gum (such as carrageenan,
algin, or xanthan gum) could have acted
as a binder, eliminating the need for
the fat. But 1-1/2 teaspoons is very
little and certainly would have tasted
better.

And then Wayne wondered whether a gum
would survive grilling, and I posted
the quote from the article about the
McLean Deluxe burger, which indeed used
a gum (carrageenan).

If you have a complaint, I suggest you
address it to Wayne.

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ophelia said:

Why would there be a problem with a small amount of shmalsz?

I am sure it would give a much better flavour than some other stuff

Are you having a senior moment or something?

Probably🙂) it wouldn't be the first time🙂

Quoted message said:

Two posts back in this same thread said:

I was about to suggest that maybe egg or
a polysacchride gum (such as carrageenan,
algin, or xanthan gum) could have acted
as a binder, eliminating the need for
the fat. But 1-1/2 teaspoons is very
little and certainly would have tasted
better.

Ok but I don't see the need to eliminate that small amount of fat. Fat
gives a good flavour🙂

Quoted message said:

And then Wayne wondered whether a gum
would survive grilling, and I posted
the quote from the article about the
McLean Deluxe burger, which indeed used
a gum (carrageenan).

If you have a complaint, I suggest you
address it to Wayne.

Nah I never complain about Wayne.. or anyone else come to think of it🙂)

O

On Sun 07 May 2006 12:10:43p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Mark
Thorson?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Thanks, Mark. I think the bacon fat is a great idea.
I'm sure the egg would also work well. I'm not sure how the gums
would react in grilled meat. Probably okay, though.

Polysaccharide gums should be about as stable
as any other polysaccharide, like starch.
Carrageenan is what McDonald's used in their
McLean Deluxe burger back in 1991. I have
no idea whether that burger or follow-on
products are still available.

Quoting from:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_n12_v25/ai_10486495/pg
_2

To retain moisture when most of the natural fat
is removed, food technologists added water and
carrageenan -- a seaweed extract -- Goldblatt
said. During grilling on McDonald's dry grills,
a small amount of moisture is lost, but the
percentage of fat increases by less than a point.

McDonald's developed the beef patty with Auburn
University researchers and funding by the National
Livestock and Meat boards. The process took three
years and cost $2 million, according to McDonald's.

Well, then, obviously it works. I'll probably stay with the little bit of
fat that I add, though, since I'm allowed to have it. Thanks for the
info, Mark.

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________

On Sun 07 May 2006 01:40:13p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Ophelia?

Quoted message said:

"Mark Thorson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ophelia said:

Why would there be a problem with a small amount of shmalsz?

I am sure it would give a much better flavour than some other stuff

Are you having a senior moment or something?

Probably🙂) it wouldn't be the first time🙂

Quoted message said:

Two posts back in this same thread said:

I was about to suggest that maybe egg or
a polysacchride gum (such as carrageenan, algin, or xanthan gum)
could have acted as a binder, eliminating the need for
the fat. But 1-1/2 teaspoons is very
little and certainly would have tasted better.

Ok but I don't see the need to eliminate that small amount of fat. Fat
gives a good flavour🙂

Quoted message said:

And then Wayne wondered whether a gum
would survive grilling, and I posted
the quote from the article about the
McLean Deluxe burger, which indeed used
a gum (carrageenan).

If you have a complaint, I suggest you address it to Wayne.

Nah I never complain about Wayne.. or anyone else come to think of it🙂)

O

:-)))

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun 07 May 2006 09:04:30a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it D.Currie?

Quoted message said:

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat 06 May 2006 10:51:00p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it
D.Currie?

>
> "Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>>I detest turkey in all forms, so have never been able to choke down a
>>turkey
>> burger. However, I was interested in limiting beef in my diet since
>> I've been on Weight Watchers.
>>
>> This afternoon I ground equal portions of chicken breast and thigh
>> meat and added a couple of tablespoons of schmaltz for the necessary
>> fat to hold it together. Seasoned the mixture with small amounts of
>> finely chopped onion, Old Bay, and cracked black pepper, then
>> refrigerated it to firm up. Formed
>> patties and grilled 'til done.
>>
>> Although David likes turkey burgers, he pronounced these infinitely
>> better. I really liked them, too.
>>
>> --
>> Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬ _____________________
>
>
> If fat is an issue, see if you can get buffalo meat. It's leaner than
> skinless chicken. And it's got a lot of flavor. To me, it seems to
> taste beefier than beef, if that makes sense.

Thanks, Donna. I can get buffalo, and have seen it for sale in several
stores. For whatever reason, it just never occurred to me to try it,
but I think I will. I didn't know it was that lean.

I've got a comparison chart on it somewhere, and I was surprised, too. I
knew it had to be leaner than beef, but when I saw that it was leaner
than skinless chicken, I was a little skeptical. But if you cook with
it, you realize how little fat there is.

If you buy the ground buff and you want to fry it up, you actually have
to add a little fat to it, you don't end up with a puddle of fat that
you have to drain off. If you use it for burgers, you probably want to
add something to it to add some moisture, though.

Here's a site with some stats:

http://www.bisoncentral.com/index.php?s=&c=67&d=99&a=1056&w=2&r=Y

Thanks, once again! I think this would be great to use in Chili, which I
have really been missing. I haven't dared make it and use ground beef.

It's great in chili. Spaghetti sauce, too. I particularly like buffalo stew.
Cook it long, low and slow, and the gravy is really beefy.

Donna

On Sun 07 May 2006 07:53:27p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it D.Currie?

Quoted message said:

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun 07 May 2006 09:04:30a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it
D.Currie?

Quoted message said:

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sat 06 May 2006 10:51:00p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it
> D.Currie?
>
>>
>> "Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>I detest turkey in all forms, so have never been able to choke down
>>>a turkey
>>> burger. However, I was interested in limiting beef in my diet
>>> since I've been on Weight Watchers.
>>>
>>> This afternoon I ground equal portions of chicken breast and thigh
>>> meat and added a couple of tablespoons of schmaltz for the
>>> necessary fat to hold it together. Seasoned the mixture with small
>>> amounts of finely chopped onion, Old Bay, and cracked black
>>> pepper, then refrigerated it to firm up. Formed
>>> patties and grilled 'til done.
>>>
>>> Although David likes turkey burgers, he pronounced these infinitely
>>> better. I really liked them, too.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬ _____________________
>>
>>
>> If fat is an issue, see if you can get buffalo meat. It's leaner
>> than skinless chicken. And it's got a lot of flavor. To me, it seems
>> to taste beefier than beef, if that makes sense.
>
> Thanks, Donna. I can get buffalo, and have seen it for sale in
> several stores. For whatever reason, it just never occurred to me
> to try it, but I think I will. I didn't know it was that lean.

I've got a comparison chart on it somewhere, and I was surprised, too.
I knew it had to be leaner than beef, but when I saw that it was
leaner than skinless chicken, I was a little skeptical. But if you
cook with it, you realize how little fat there is.

If you buy the ground buff and you want to fry it up, you actually
have to add a little fat to it, you don't end up with a puddle of fat
that you have to drain off. If you use it for burgers, you probably
want to add something to it to add some moisture, though.

Here's a site with some stats:

http://www.bisoncentral.com/index.php?s=&c=67&d=99&a=1056&w=2&r=Y

Thanks, once again! I think this would be great to use in Chili, which
I have really been missing. I haven't dared make it and use ground
beef.

It's great in chili. Spaghetti sauce, too. I particularly like buffalo
stew. Cook it long, low and slow, and the gravy is really beefy.

I think my first try will be spaghetti sauce. I haven't made meat sauce in
quite a while since we've been avoiding beef.

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________

Wayne Boatwright said:

I detest turkey in all forms, so have never been able to choke down a turkey
burger. However, I was interested in limiting beef in my diet since I've
been on Weight Watchers.

This afternoon I ground equal portions of chicken breast and thigh meat and
added a couple of tablespoons of schmaltz for the necessary fat to hold it
together. Seasoned the mixture with small amounts of finely chopped onion,
Old Bay, and cracked black pepper, then refrigerated it to firm up. Formed
patties and grilled 'til done.

Although David likes turkey burgers, he pronounced these infinitely better.
I really liked them, too.

Wayne, we eat turkey burgers exclusively. I find that the 97/3 whole
ground turkey tastes a lot better than the ground white/breast - and I
beef mine up with a little seasoned bread crumbs, Greek seasoning
(without salt), garlic and onion powders and black pepper. Either
grilled or just fried in a skillet they are really good. (It sounds
similar to what you did with the chicken, so I am wondering if you
have been buying the ground turkey breast...?)

-L.

On Sun 07 May 2006 09:06:21p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it -L.?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

I detest turkey in all forms, so have never been able to choke down a
turkey burger. However, I was interested in limiting beef in my diet
since I've been on Weight Watchers.

This afternoon I ground equal portions of chicken breast and thigh meat
and added a couple of tablespoons of schmaltz for the necessary fat to
hold it together. Seasoned the mixture with small amounts of finely
chopped onion, Old Bay, and cracked black pepper, then refrigerated it
to firm up. Formed patties and grilled 'til done.

Although David likes turkey burgers, he pronounced these infinitely
better. I really liked them, too.

Wayne, we eat turkey burgers exclusively. I find that the 97/3 whole
ground turkey tastes a lot better than the ground white/breast - and I
beef mine up with a little seasoned bread crumbs, Greek seasoning
(without salt), garlic and onion powders and black pepper. Either
grilled or just fried in a skillet they are really good. (It sounds
similar to what you did with the chicken, so I am wondering if you
have been buying the ground turkey breast...?)

Lyn, the simple fact is that I just don't like turkey in any form, never
have. I know I have bought the ground white/breast and I think I've also
bought the 97/3, but both were for David. I roast turkey breast for him
and make him turkey burgers, but none of it is for me. I don't even like
the smell of it cooking. :-) I see no point in forcing myself to eat
something I simply don't like. I've never eaten another fowl that I didn't
like. Funny, huh? Must be something like cilantro...you either love it or
hate it. :-)

I do appreciate your suggestions, however.

Cheers!

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________

Wayne Boatwright said:

Lyn, the simple fact is that I just don't like turkey in any form, never
have. I know I have bought the ground white/breast and I think I've also
bought the 97/3, but both were for David. I roast turkey breast for him
and make him turkey burgers, but none of it is for me. I don't even like
the smell of it cooking. :-) I see no point in forcing myself to eat
something I simply don't like. I've never eaten another fowl that I didn't
like. Funny, huh? Must be something like cilantro...you either love it or
hate it. :-)

I do appreciate your suggestions, however.

Intersting that you'd like chicken and other poultry but not turkey. 🙂
I think turkey is my favorite poultry - I also like pheasant, but it
needs to be cooked properly, and too many people don't know how to cook
it. The one bird I will not eat is duck.

-L.

On Sun 07 May 2006 10:52:25p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it -L.?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Lyn, the simple fact is that I just don't like turkey in any form,
never have. I know I have bought the ground white/breast and I think
I've also bought the 97/3, but both were for David. I roast turkey
breast for him and make him turkey burgers, but none of it is for me.
I don't even like the smell of it cooking. :-) I see no point in
forcing myself to eat something I simply don't like. I've never eaten
another fowl that I didn't like. Funny, huh? Must be something like
cilantro...you either love it or hate it. :-)

I do appreciate your suggestions, however.

Intersting that you'd like chicken and other poultry but not turkey. 🙂
I think turkey is my favorite poultry - I also like pheasant, but it
needs to be cooked properly, and too many people don't know how to cook
it. The one bird I will not eat is duck.

It's funny how different people's tastes are. I absolutely love duck,
particularly with a fruity glaze. Many years ago a hunter friend of mine
taught me how to make braised pheasant. It makes for a lovely meal.

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________

Wayne Boatwright said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

It's great in chili. Spaghetti sauce, too. I particularly like buffalo
stew. Cook it long, low and slow, and the gravy is really beefy.

I think my first try will be spaghetti sauce. I haven't made meat sauce in
quite a while since we've been avoiding beef.

--

You can use pork, chicken or lamb in meat-based spaghetti sauce. They
are all quite good.

On Mon 08 May 2006 02:11:25p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Arri
London?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

It's great in chili. Spaghetti sauce, too. I particularly like
buffalo stew. Cook it long, low and slow, and the gravy is really
beefy.

I think my first try will be spaghetti sauce. I haven't made meat
sauce in quite a while since we've been avoiding beef.

--

You can use pork, chicken or lamb in meat-based spaghetti sauce. They
are all quite good.

Yes, I know, but I was focusing on very low fat which, IMHO, would exclude
pork or lamb.

--
Wayne Boatwright Õ¿Õ¬
________________________________________

Okay, okay, I take it back! UnScrew you!

Wayne Boatwright said:

It's funny how different people's tastes are. I absolutely love duck,
particularly with a fruity glaze. Many years ago a hunter friend of mine
taught me how to make braised pheasant. It makes for a lovely meal.

The couple of times I have had duck, it was too greasy for me. The
second time I felt it was undercooked, which is a total turn-off. I
would probably like it if it were prepared differently.

-L.

On Mon 08 May 2006 02:30:43p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it -L.?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

It's funny how different people's tastes are. I absolutely love duck,
particularly with a fruity glaze. Many years ago a hunter friend of
mine taught me how to make braised pheasant. It makes for a lovely
meal.

The couple of times I have had duck, it was too greasy for me. The
second time I felt it was undercooked, which is a total turn-off. I
would probably like it if it were prepared differently.

I totally understand. If th first duck I had eaten had been greasy, I
doubt if I would have ever ordered it again. It happened to me once a few
years ago and I couldn't eat it...sent it back to the kitchen.

The trick to roast duckling is to [censored] the skin periodically and drain the
accumulated fat periodically. You end up with crisp skin and nicely done
meat. Undercooked poultry really is a turnoff.

The most memorable duckling I was ever served in a restaurant was a half-
duckling that had been fully deboned, well roasted, then glazed with a
fresh black raspberry sauce and garnished with whole berries.

--
Wayne Boatwright Õ¿Õ¬
________________________________________

Okay, okay, I take it back! UnScrew you!

-L. said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

It's funny how different people's tastes are. I absolutely love
duck, particularly with a fruity glaze. Many years ago a hunter
friend of mine taught me how to make braised pheasant. It makes for
a lovely meal.

The couple of times I have had duck, it was too greasy for me. The
second time I felt it was undercooked, which is a total turn-off. I
would probably like it if it were prepared differently.

-L.

Interestingly enough, the only time I've ever had duck was on an
International flight to Bangkok. It was sliced smoked duck breast and it
was absolutely fantastic! Not greasy, not overcooked; obviously
pre-prepared and heated up but probably not in a microwave since this was
1969. But I'm pretty sure airline food even on International flights has
changed a lot since then.

Jill

On Tue 09 May 2006 09:23:53a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it jmcquown?

Quoted message said:

-L. said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

It's funny how different people's tastes are. I absolutely love
duck, particularly with a fruity glaze. Many years ago a hunter
friend of mine taught me how to make braised pheasant. It makes for
a lovely meal.

The couple of times I have had duck, it was too greasy for me. The
second time I felt it was undercooked, which is a total turn-off. I
would probably like it if it were prepared differently.

-L.

Interestingly enough, the only time I've ever had duck was on an
International flight to Bangkok. It was sliced smoked duck breast and it
was absolutely fantastic! Not greasy, not overcooked; obviously
pre-prepared and heated up but probably not in a microwave since this was
1969. But I'm pretty sure airline food even on International flights has
changed a lot since then.

Heh! Airlines still have *food*?

--

Wayne Boatwright
_____________________________________________________________

"How can a nation be great if it's bread taste like Kleenex?"

Julia Child

-L. said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

Lyn, the simple fact is that I just don't like turkey in any form, never
have. I know I have bought the ground white/breast and I think I've also
bought the 97/3, but both were for David. I roast turkey breast for him
and make him turkey burgers, but none of it is for me. I don't even like
the smell of it cooking. :-) I see no point in forcing myself to eat
something I simply don't like. I've never eaten another fowl that I didn't
like. Funny, huh? Must be something like cilantro...you either love it or
hate it. :-)

I do appreciate your suggestions, however.

Intersting that you'd like chicken and other poultry but not turkey. 🙂

I like chicken fine (don't love it, but like it fine). I *hate*
turkey. Bleah.

serene

Wayne Boatwright said:

On Mon 08 May 2006 02:11:25p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Arri
London?

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright said:

<snip>
> It's great in chili. Spaghetti sauce, too. I particularly like
> buffalo stew. Cook it long, low and slow, and the gravy is really
> beefy.

I think my first try will be spaghetti sauce. I haven't made meat
sauce in quite a while since we've been avoiding beef.

--

You can use pork, chicken or lamb in meat-based spaghetti sauce. They
are all quite good.

Yes, I know, but I was focusing on very low fat which, IMHO, would exclude
pork or lamb.

It won't. Correctly trimmed pork and lamb are just as low fat as beef.
And it will hardly make a difference for one meal anyway.